Post practice quotes - 6/5/2023

[Fatroony5]

I don't understand why you people continue to die on this hill. It's not even about whether or not the NBA should have more mid-range shots or not. The fact is that if he wants to get drafted and get a bunch of money, his best chance is to develop a 3-point shot rather than a mid-range shot. The NBA is desperate for true 7-footers that can shoot 3s.

Why would he or our coaching staff focus on a skill that will not help his long-term career? Why are you advocating for Donovan to train a skill that will not help him be successful at the next level? Do you not want our players to be successful in the NBA?

It’s always funny to me to see how people talk about the NBA and their clear misunderstanding of the game as a whole. DC doesn’t need a midrange game lol, he needs better shooting touch, we can agree there. Improvement in his FT percentage is definitely an area he can/will work on, we’ve seen what can happen in the NBA when guys can’t shoot free throws (hack a shaq).

There’s ton of things to work on, midrange pull ups is like near the botttom. The mid range game isn’t dead in the NBA, but you have to be so prolific in that area to have it be a focus in your game. The odd thing is, two of the best mid range guys play on the same team: Durant & Booker. Love watching those guys play. But midrange works for them because they can get to their spots & elevate. Kawhi is another guy in there too. Few others, but Durant & Booker are like the kings of it currently, lethal in that area.

 

[husky429]

Ok we should define mid range. But look at the chart you attached for Jokic. 86 mid range shots and 141 3 point shots. Or look at it this way any shot in the paint he shot better that 60%. Which is the important metric. You only get so many shot attempts per game. If you are a 40% or about 40% 3 point shooter that is 12 points per ten shots. He took 86 mid range shots and shot 52%. So would you rather have ten points for every ten shots or twelve points. Not saying I agree but math almost ruined baseball, and it has definitely impacted the beauty of pure basketball. But it is what it is.

No basketball coach is telling their stars to take 0 mid-range shots. It's just not the first option.

We design plays to get to the rim or get a 3. If that is taken away by the team defense, you look if anyone else has a high % shot available and make the pass. After that (or in a late shot clock situation), we use that 1 dribble pull-up from 15 feet.

The pump-fake and 1 dribble pull-up is still an important part of the game. The 3 dribble iso mid-range crap was never good basketball. The late 90s and early 2000s is what nearly ruined the game of basketball with that crap.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

It’s always funny to me to see how people talk about the NBA and their clear misunderstanding of the game as a whole. DC doesn’t need a midrange game lol, he needs better shooting touch, we can agree there. Improvement in his FT percentage is definitely an area he can/will work on, we’ve seen what can happen in the NBA when guys can’t shoot free throws (hack a shaq).

There’s ton of things to work on, midrange pull ups is like near the botttom. The mid range game isn’t dead in the NBA, but you have to be so prolific in that area to have it be a focus in your game. The odd thing is, two of the best mid range guys play on the same team: Durant & Booker. Love watching those guys play. But midrange works for them because they can get to their spots & elevate. Kawhi is another guy in there too. Few others, but Durant & Booker are like the kings of it currently, lethal in that area.

SGA took over double the amount of mid range shots than threes and he was 1st team All NBA.

SGA: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander | Oklahoma City Thunder

Jalen Brunson just carried the Knicks on one of their best postseason runs in awhile leaning on mid range shots.

Brunson:

Jalen Brunson | New York Knicks

Jalen Brunson Stats and news - NBA stats and news on New York Knicks Guard Jalen Brunson

www.nba.com

You know who follows the formula that gets talked about here? Julius Randle.

Randle:

Julius Randle | New York Knicks

Julius Randle Stats and news - NBA stats and news on New York Knicks Forward-Center Julius Randle

www.nba.com

De’Aron Fox was the most clutch player in the NBA off mid range shots and led his team to a 2 seed. Sabonis also lived there.

Fox:

De'Aaron Fox | Sacramento Kings

De'Aaron Fox Stats and news - NBA stats and news on Sacramento Kings Guard De'Aaron Fox

www.nba.com

Sabonis:

Domantas Sabonis | Sacramento Kings

Domantas Sabonis Stats and news - NBA stats and news on Sacramento Kings Forward-Center Domantas Sabonis

www.nba.com

I’m counting mid range as shots between 8-24ft. Where are these examples of STAR players who are successful without having a lethal mid range game?

 

[HuskyHawk]

Facts don't change the narrative for folks living in fantasy-land.

I try, because I loved the 80s teams, actually rooted for the Lakers over Celtics because I loved the "showtime" style of play and Magic. Then came the ISO era and yeah, that was dreadful. Jordan was individually brilliant, but before they changed the rules in the early 2000s it was ugly ball. I gave up on the NBA. Then I came back as it changed and motion offenses and shifting defenses arrived.

If anyone liked the way UConn played on offense and defense last season, then they'd like the modern NBA. We probably played the most NBA like system of any team in college basketball.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

SGA took over double the amount of mid range shots than threes and he was 1st team All NBA.

SGA: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander | Oklahoma City Thunder

Jalen Brunson just carried the Knicks on one of their best postseason runs in awhile leaning on mid range shots.

Brunson:

Jalen Brunson | New York Knicks

Jalen Brunson Stats and news - NBA stats and news on New York Knicks Guard Jalen Brunson

www.nba.com

You know who follows the formula that gets talked about here? Julius Randle.

Randle:

Julius Randle | New York Knicks

Julius Randle Stats and news - NBA stats and news on New York Knicks Forward-Center Julius Randle

www.nba.com

De’Aron Fox was the most clutch player in the NBA off mid range shots and led his team to a 2 seed. Sabonis also lived there.

Fox:

De'Aaron Fox | Sacramento Kings

De'Aaron Fox Stats and news - NBA stats and news on Sacramento Kings Guard De'Aaron Fox

www.nba.com

Sabonis:

Domantas Sabonis | Sacramento Kings

Domantas Sabonis Stats and news - NBA stats and news on Sacramento Kings Forward-Center Domantas Sabonis

www.nba.com

I’m counting mid range as shots between 8-24ft. Where are these examples of STAR players who are successful without having a lethal mid range game?

And non of those players/teams went anywhere. 3’s and open shots at the rim are, and will now always be the better shots.

 

[August_West]

And non of those players/teams went anywhere. 3’s and open shots at the rim are, and will now always be the better shots.

Yeah thats a tough one. Julius Randle shot the knicks out of a series.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

I agree with your overall premise. Clyde and Earl the Pearl were my favorite players growing up and they lived and dominated in the mid range. I hope they move the three point line out to a liner straight across the court and make it a 30ft shot. Because these players are getting better and better at making threes and ultimately I don’t think that is good for the game. Bring back hand checking and the physicality that once was so much part of the game. But fans want to see the long ball or dunks. So as a business the nba created a product that spaces the floor and these guys either heave it up from three or go full throttle down open lanes for dunks. Not the game I grew up playing.

Yeah the league has evolved a lot to where guys are very capable of making that shot and most importantly, no one is afraid to take the shot.

I think the Nuggets are a perfect example of how beautiful the game can be with scorers who can space the floor but not rely on a three ball at the same time. They can take and hit shots from anywhere.

 

[Fatroony5]

SGA took over double the amount of mid range shots than threes and he was 1st team All NBA.

SGA: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander | Oklahoma City Thunder

Jalen Brunson just carried the Knicks on one of their best postseason runs in awhile leaning on mid range shots.

Brunson:

Jalen Brunson | New York Knicks

Jalen Brunson Stats and news - NBA stats and news on New York Knicks Guard Jalen Brunson

www.nba.com

You know who follows the formula that gets talked about here? Julius Randle.

Randle:

Julius Randle | New York Knicks

Julius Randle Stats and news - NBA stats and news on New York Knicks Forward-Center Julius Randle

www.nba.com

De’Aron Fox was the most clutch player in the NBA off mid range shots and led his team to a 2 seed. Sabonis also lived there.

Fox:

De'Aaron Fox | Sacramento Kings

De'Aaron Fox Stats and news - NBA stats and news on Sacramento Kings Guard De'Aaron Fox

www.nba.com

Sabonis:

Domantas Sabonis | Sacramento Kings

Domantas Sabonis Stats and news - NBA stats and news on Sacramento Kings Forward-Center Domantas Sabonis

www.nba.com

I’m counting mid range as shots between 8-24ft. Where are these examples of STAR players who are successful without having a lethal mid range game?

Huh? I never said star players don’t need it, their stars because they’re efficient at all 3 levels. There are players who are more lethal at it then others. For a lot of players, playing in the midrange isn’t a good shot, it’s just not. People have figured this out which is why unless you’re super efficient in the mid range, the game is more so played from the paint and 3s. The iso midrange stuff isn’t good for a lot of guys. I was pointing to Clingan and saying he doesn’t need to work on that, why would he? Tons of things he can/needs to work on, midrange isn’t at the top of that list.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

And non of those players/teams went anywhere. 3’s and open shots at the rim are, and will now always be the better shots.

We’re watching Jimmy Butler and Bam in the Finals right now.

WCF was Jokic vs Bron and AD. Two other guys who don’t lean on the three and beat a team in the Semis who did. Jokic played against those two mid range demons in his semis matchup before that.

In the East it was Joel and the guy who follows the formula Harden vs the Celtics. Then the mid range killer Brunson carrying the Knicks against the Heat.

 

[auror]

If you're going to take a dribble pull-up 1 on 1 shot, it should probably be a 2 instead of a 3, just from sheer difficulty (unless you're a Steph/Dame caliber shooter and on the smaller side). So this is a good skill for wing and big primary scoring options to work on.

If you are any other player archetype, you should definitely practice 3s much more than 2s.

You can also develop the midrange game in the pros if need be (see Embiid, et al).

 

[CardiacAndre7]

We’re watching Jimmy Butler and Bam in the Finals right now.

WCF was Jokic vs Bron and AD. Two other guys who don’t lean on the three and beat a team in the Semis who did. Jokic played against those two mid range demons in his semis matchup before that.

In the East it was Joel and the guy who follows the formula Harden vs the Celtics. Then the mid range killer Brunson carrying the Knicks against the Heat.

AD wasn’t very good for most of the series and missed a strong majority of his shots. Jokic was mostly scoring at the rim. Jamal had a great series too, so no, it wasn’t AD and Bron vs Jokic.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

AD wasn’t very good for most of the series and missed a strong majority of his shots. Jokic was mostly scoring at the rim. Jamal had a great series too, so no, it wasn’t AD and Bron vs Jokic.

I’m just saying those were the primary stars of the series. Jamal definitely deserves to be in there too. But the fact is, most of those winning teams featured guys who relied heavily on the “bad” midrange shot more than threes. I think Jamal has shot more threes than mid ranges this playoffs, but he still is also a very elite mid range guy too.

Jamal Murray | Denver Nuggets

Jamal Murray Stats and news - NBA stats and news on Denver Nuggets Guard Jamal Murray

www.nba.com

 

[HuskyHawk]

We’re watching Jimmy Butler and Bam in the Finals right now.

WCF was Jokic vs Bron and AD. Two other guys who don’t lean on the three and beat a team in the Semis who did. Jokic played against those two mid range demons in his semis matchup before that.

In the East it was Joel and the guy who follows the formula Harden vs the Celtics. Then the mid range killer Brunson carrying the Knicks against the Heat.

And the team that won almost every game was the team that shot best from 3. Miami has been over 50% from 3 several times and won every one of those games, including the last one and game 7 vs Boston.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

If you're going to take a dribble pull-up 1 on 1 shot, it should probably be a 2 instead of a 3, just from sheer difficulty (unless you're a Steph/Dame caliber shooter and on the smaller side). So this is a good skill for wing and big primary scoring options to work on.

If you are any other player archetype, you should definitely practice 3s much more than 2s.

You can also develop the midrange game in the pros if need be (see Embiid, et al).

I guess the question is what kind of players do we want our guys to be?

If we just want to see them carve out a nice role in the NBA then yeah, they should just work on threes. But if we want to see them be franchise players, they need to be on the Kemba Walker plan. I wish Andre spent more time on that.

Castle and Donovan both have potential to be franchise guys. I would like to see them develop dominant mid range games to compliment their shooting to become good iso scorers. Calhoun did a great job of developing iso scorers while also having guys play in a well ran offense. It’s something Hawkins is lacking heading to the league that Jeremy Lamb didn’t. Hawkins just has a much better release to makeup for it.

Btw, Embiid didn’t attempt threes in college so you can say the same about that.

 

[auror]

I guess the question is what kind of players do we want our guys to be?

If we just want to see them carve out a nice role in the NBA then yeah, they should just work on threes. But if we want to see them be franchise players, they need to be on the Kemba Walker plan. I wish Andre spent more time on that.

Castle and Donovan both have potential to be franchise guys. I would like to see them develop dominant mid range games to compliment their shooting to become good iso scorers. Calhoun did a great job of developing iso scorers while also having guys play in a well ran offense. It’s something Hawkins is lacking heading to the league that Jeremy Lamb didn’t. Hawkins just has a much better release to makeup for it.

Btw, Embiid didn’t attempt threes in college so you can say the same about that.

I agree Castle should work on both (and it's my impression that he does have both levels in his game).

Donovan should prioritize the 3 first, then add the midrange 2 if it seems that he needs it. His most likely role in the NBA is rim-runner/spacer a Walker Kessler/Jaren Jackson type role. Essentially, if he doesn't already have it, I doubt he'll get his midrange game to a level where NBA decision makers will think he's a primary scoring option using the midrange, because those 1v1 type moves are heavily contested, difficult shots. Whereas open 3s are an easier thing to add in one summer.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

I agree Castle should work on both (and it's my impression that he does have both levels in his game).

Donovan should prioritize the 3 first, then add the midrange 2 if it seems that he needs it. His most likely role in the NBA is rim-runner/spacer a Walker Kessler/Jaren Jackson type role. Essentially, if he doesn't already have it, I doubt he'll get his midrange game to a level where NBA decision makers will think he's a primary scoring option using the midrange, because those 1v1 type moves are heavily contested, difficult shots. Whereas open 3s are an easier thing to add in one summer.

That’s where expectations come into play. He’s good where he’s at to be a Kessler type player right now.

I don’t want DC taking pull-up 2s, but man. If he can master the turnaround Dirk fadeaway from 10-15 ft out he’s a no brainer All Star minimum because no one on earth is stopping that. Can he add it in a summer? No, not master it. But he can lay the foundation for teams to invest in when he gets drafted to continue to do that.

Think about how much Joel and Jokic strike fear into defenses because they absolutely control the game from the midrange in isolation. The three point shot is moreso a bonus to help their team space the floor but they control it through the mid because guys HAVE to play up on them. With Donovan’s ability to pass and his athleticism that can be him. But we have to teach him how to be an iso scorer to do that.

It honestly doesn’t even need to be a one or the other situation though. There’s no reason he can’t both work on his three point shooting and developing some big man moves in the mid. Lol. He’s a hard worker who has 24/7 access to the gym. It’s really just about the direction he gets pushed in.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

And the team that won almost every game was the team that shot best from 3. Miami has been over 50% from 3 several times and won every one of those games, including the last one and game 7 vs Boston.

That’s because they don’t force threes. It’s not their gameplan to Jack threes. They attempted 60 less threes than the Celtics that series and only had 1 game they attempted more.

Living and dying by the three is a very real thing.

 

[businesslawyer]

I don't understand why you people continue to die on this hill. It's not even about whether or not the NBA should have more mid-range shots or not. The fact is that if he wants to get drafted and get a bunch of money, his best chance is to develop a 3-point shot rather than a mid-range shot. The NBA is desperate for true 7-footers that can shoot 3s.

Why would he or our coaching staff focus on a skill that will not help his long-term career? Why are you advocating for Donovan to train a skill that will not help him be successful at the next level? Do you not want our players to be successful in the NBA?

My first objective is that we develop our players to help us win games in college while they are here. I do not view college basketball as a breeding ground for the NBA. I will care far more about our players winning games in college than when they're in the NBA.

 

[husky429]

My first objective is that we develop our players to help us win games in college while they are here. I do not view college basketball as a breeding ground for the NBA. I will care far more about our players winning games in college than when they're in the NBA.

Good luck recruiting, then.

" won't prepare you for professional basketball" is about the easiest way to win a recruiting battle I can imagine. Maybe we should have had Kimani let Castle know we didn't care about developing him for the league.

Could we also imagine that NBA staffs made up of the best minds in the game probably know what they're doing? And maybe (just maybe) when the league thinks players should develop a 3, they might know what they're talking about?

 

[businesslawyer]

Good luck recruiting, then.

It's not like there is no overlap in skills. But I don't want us to be Kentucky. Get the guys here however you can, but once here everyone's top goal has to be winning as a team -- not developing skills for the next level. It's not like winning isn't an important skill.

 

[uconngb]

Over

UNDER

 

[August_West]

It's not like there is no overlap in skills. But I don't want us to be Kentucky. Get the guys here however you can, but once here everyone's top goal has to be winning as a team -- not developing skills for the next level. It's not like winning isn't an important skill.

This . Winning takes care of a lot of things, we are about to put a great kid who may have the most broken jumper anyone has ever seen into the late first round of the NBA draft. How? Why? Because he’s shown he’s a winner.

 

[August_West]

Good luck recruiting, then.

" won't prepare you for professional basketball" is about the easiest way to win a recruiting battle I can imagine. Maybe we should have had Kimani let Castle know we didn't care about developing him for the league.

Could we also imagine that NBA staffs made up of the best minds in the game probably know what they're doing? And maybe (just maybe) when the league thinks players should develop a 3, they might know what they're talking about?

That’s too absolute.

 

[husky429]

It's not like there is no overlap in skills. But I don't want us to be Kentucky. Get the guys here however you can, but once here everyone's top goal has to be winning as a team -- not developing skills for the next level. It's not like winning isn't an important skill.

You didn't quote or address the entire second half of my quote, counsel.

The same skills that help you win the in the NBA, help you win in college. Developing NBA skills IS helping you win as a team. The only real exception might be traditional bigs like Sanogo or Edey. And even then, it's not like a 3-point shot hurt Sanogo... it's the only reason he might get drafted.

Squid recruits only one-and-dones who only start developing with him, so they don't win. We will never be that team.

 

[husky429]

That’s too absolute.

It really isn't.

NBA skills help you win in college. Where the Squid goes wrong is recruiting one-and-dones that start developing those skills and never finish. That's not what we're doing.

Did we go wrong helping Rese develop a three-point shot and ballhandling for the league? No, because having a 6'7 player who can shoot, defend, and dribble will help you win at any level of basketball.