Post practice quotes - 6/5/2023

[ucp990411]

I don't understand why you people continue to die on this hill. It's not even about whether or not the NBA should have more mid-range shots or not. The fact is that if he wants to get drafted and get a bunch of money, his best chance is to develop a 3-point shot rather than a mid-range shot. The NBA is desperate for true 7-footers that can shoot 3s.

Why would he or our coaching staff focus on a skill that will not help his long-term career? Why are you advocating for Donovan to train a skill that will not help him be successful at the next level? Do you not want our players to be successful in the NBA?

One of the most important things a college coach does is prepare his players for the next level. Dan Hurley gets that.

 

[UCTitleTown]

Any time someone says "the NBA doesn't play defense," I am 100% sure they actually either don't watch the NBA, or have 0 idea how the game of basketball works.

Wrong. I guess you need to say 99% or 100% with a 5% margin of error. So I guess the players were just worse when the scores were in the 80s and 90s..... Better players = more scoring..... Okay.

 

[husky429]

Wrong. I guess you need to say 99% or 100% with a 5% margin of error. So I guess the players were just worse when the scores were in the 80s and 90s..... Better players = more scoring..... Okay.

The players are certainly much more skilled now. They are also bigger, stronger, and more athletic. One of the beautiful things about this game is how our training and skills continue to advance. We learn what works and adapt. It's not just "better players/more scoring" though. Advanced analytics have optimized offenses to levels we haven't witnessed before. We're taking better shots in the most efficient actions. It isn't trial and error like in the 80s... we're building off DECADES of data to create the most efficient teams possible. Teams WOULD be scoring 130 a game every night if it wasn't for defenses advancing in turn.

And FWIW, the average PPG in 2022 was 114. The 4 years before that were 110-ish.

The 80s ranged from 107-110 PPG. The late 90s and early 2000s dropped with the iso era... down to a low point of 91 PPG in '97. See this link.

The differences you described were exaggerated substantially.

 

[Deleted at users request]

I love DC but to be a top 5 he will have to get a little quicker, his speed up and down the court is + right now, I am speaking about his lateral movement when on defense and his first step when he needs drive to the basket when he is being guarded closely inside 17ft. If he takes more than 80 threes and shoots above 36% then maybe he makes your prediction come true.

The way I see it, scouts are going to look at him like Jokic because of his ability to pass except he can be an elite rim protector too. You’re not finding many 7’s like him with his motor too. He’s a special prospect.

This run Jokic is on can really help DC’s stock.

 

[Hunt for 7]

I don't understand why you people continue to die on this hill. It's not even about whether or not the NBA should have more mid-range shots or not. The fact is that if he wants to get drafted and get a bunch of money, his best chance is to develop a 3-point shot rather than a mid-range shot. The NBA is desperate for true 7-footers that can shoot 3s.

Why would he or our coaching staff focus on a skill that will not help his long-term career? Why are you advocating for Donovan to train a skill that will not help him be successful at the next level? Do you not want our players to be successful in the NBA?

The show Cheers just celebrated an anniversary. Whenever I hear someone mention the mid range game and NBA, I always think of the Cheers episode when John Cleese plays a marriage counselor and meets with Sam and Diane and comes to the conclusion that they should never get married. Diane counter with “so we are opposites and opposites attract” to which Cleese responds ah, “opposites attract the cry of the eternally doomed”. That about sums up the importance of the mid range game in todays nba.

 

[ucp990411]

One of the most important things a college coach does is prepare his players for the next level. Dan Hurley gets that.

Hey 429. I owe you an apology for a comment I made towards you in the chat during a game this year. You probably don’t remember it but I do. And I really appreciate all the info you provide.

 

[Deleted at users request]

The show Cheers just celebrated an anniversary. Whenever I hear someone mention the mid range game and NBA, I always think of the Cheers episode when John Cleese plays a marriage counselor and meets with Sam and Diane and comes to the conclusion that they should never get married. Diane counter with “so we are opposites and opposites attract” to which Cleese responds ah, “opposites attract the cry of the eternally doomed”. That about sums up the importance of the mid range game in todays nba.

This is just not true though. Especially in Donovan’s case when talking about elite level centers.

Joel and Nikola both take more mid range shots than they do threes. This is a fact.

Jokic: Nikola Jokic | Denver Nuggets

Joel: Joel Embiid | Philadelphia 76ers

Devin Booker went on a historic scoring run this playoffs shooting mostly mid range shots.

Booker: Devin Booker | Phoenix Suns

Nobody who is a high level player is just shooting threes and layups except for Jayson Tatum who shoots a terrible FG%s because of it. I don’t know why people ignore these clear examples.

If you want to be a regular role player, sure learn the three and nothing else. But if you want to be an All Star, All NBA player you need to be a legit three level scorer.

 

[Deleted at users request]

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here when I can rattle off a list of quite literally THE best and most clutch players in the NBA who take more mid range shots than threes but this board will say it doesn’t matter because Steph Curry and the Warriors.

 

[Hunt for 7]

The way I see it, scouts are going to look at him like Jokic because of his ability to pass except he can be an elite rim protector too. You’re not finding many 7’s like him with his motor too. He’s a special prospect.

This run Jokic is on can really help DC’s stock.

This is just not true though. Especially in Donovan’s case when talking about elite level centers.

Joel and Nikola both take more mid range shots than they do threes. This is a fact.

Jokic: Nikola Jokic | Denver Nuggets

Joel: Joel Embiid | Philadelphia 76ers

Devin Booker went on a historic scoring run this playoffs shooting mostly mid range shots.

Booker: Devin Booker | Phoenix Suns

Nobody who is a high level player is just shooting threes and layups except for Jayson Tatum who shoots a terrible FG%s because of it. I don’t know why people ignore these clear examples.

If you want to be a regular role player, sure learn the three and nothing else. But if you want to be an All Star, All NBA player you need to be a legit three level scorer.

Ok we should define mid range. But look at the chart you attached for Jokic. 86 mid range shots and 141 3 point shots. Or look at it this way any shot in the paint he shot better that 60%. Which is the important metric. You only get so many shot attempts per game. If you are a 40% or about 40% 3 point shooter that is 12 points per ten shots. He took 86 mid range shots and shot 52%. So would you rather have ten points for every ten shots or twelve points. Not saying I agree but math almost ruined baseball, and it has definitely impacted the beauty of pure basketball. But it is what it is.

 

[husky429]

Hey 429. I owe you an apology for a comment I made towards you in the chat during a game this year. You probably don’t remember it but I do. And I really appreciate all the info you provide.

No one can be held accountable for what happens in the game chat. It's the wild west in there, lol.

 

[Deleted at users request]

Ok we should define mid range. But look at the chart you attached for Jokic. 86 mid range shots and 141 3 point shots. Or look at it this way any shot in the paint he shot better that 60%. Which is the important metric. You only get so many shot attempts per game. If you are a 40% or about 40% 3 point shooter that is 12 points per ten shots. He took 86 mid range shots and shot 52%. So would you rather have ten points for every ten shots or twelve points. Not saying I agree but math almost ruined baseball, and it has definitely impacted the beauty of pure basketball. But it is what it is.

I was looking at the 8ft-24ft range.

Something that’s not pretty much a layup. Jokic shot about 200 of those compare to 146 threes. In the playoffs it’s 81 to 63.

I understand the math behind the a three is worth more than a 2, but at the end of the day you just need to score and there’s a lot of other factors the math doesn’t take into account.

We saw the Rockets fail horribly using that math and the Celtics just lost to a much less talented Heat team behind that too because it doesn’t matter if you inevitably go cold taking the toughest shot in basketball. The Heat’s two best players were not three point shooters and one was able to get tough baskets when it mattered because at the end of the day, you just want to get the best shot to score.

Eventually teams are going to adjust once they see that math only works when you have the two best shooters of all time.

 

[Hunt for 7]

I was looking at the 8ft-24ft range.

Something that’s not pretty much a layup. Jokic shot about 200 of those compare to 146 threes. In the playoffs it’s 81 to 63.

I understand the math behind the a three is worth more than a 2, but at the end of the day you just need to score and there’s a lot of other factors the math doesn’t take into account.

We saw the Rockets fail horribly using that math and the Celtics just lost to a much less talented Heat team behind that too because it doesn’t matter if you inevitably go cold taking the toughest shot in basketball. The Heat’s two best players were not three point shooters and one was able to get tough baskets when it mattered because at the end of the day, you just want to get the best shot to score.

Eventually teams are going to adjust once they see that math only works when you have the two best shooters of all time.

I agree with your overall premise. Clyde and Earl the Pearl were my favorite players growing up and they lived and dominated in the mid range. I hope they move the three point line out to a liner straight across the court and make it a 30ft shot. Because these players are getting better and better at making threes and ultimately I don’t think that is good for the game. Bring back hand checking and the physicality that once was so much part of the game. But fans want to see the long ball or dunks. So as a business the nba created a product that spaces the floor and these guys either heave it up from three or go full throttle down open lanes for dunks. Not the game I grew up playing.

 

[ucp990411]

No one can be held accountable for what happens in the game chat. It's the wild west in there, lol.

I would love to talk hoops at some point

 

[HuskyHawk]

Wrong. I guess you need to say 99% or 100% with a 5% margin of error. So I guess the players were just worse when the scores were in the 80s and 90s..... Better players = more scoring..... Okay.

I think you are just misremembering. This is the 1987 finals. Note that guys like Bird could have scored more if they shot more 3s. The scoring isn't much different. How it happens is. Now team defense trumps individual defense. Yes, sometimes a guy is just wide open and they let him shoot. Usually ball movement won the day, and they can't close out late without fouling. But it is much more a team game now than in the 90's and 00s. On both sides of the ball.

 

[husky429]

I think you are just misremembering. This is the 1987 finals. Note that guys like Bird could have scored more if they shot more 3s. The scoring isn't much different. How it happens is. Now team defense trumps individual defense. Yes, sometimes a guy is just wide open and they let him shoot. Usually ball movement won the day, and they can't close out late without fouling. But it is much more a team game now than in the 90's and 00s. On both sides of the ball.

View attachment 88761

Facts don't change the narrative for folks living in fantasy-land.

 

[Fatroony5]

I don't understand why you people continue to die on this hill. It's not even about whether or not the NBA should have more mid-range shots or not. The fact is that if he wants to get drafted and get a bunch of money, his best chance is to develop a 3-point shot rather than a mid-range shot. The NBA is desperate for true 7-footers that can shoot 3s.

Why would he or our coaching staff focus on a skill that will not help his long-term career? Why are you advocating for Donovan to train a skill that will not help him be successful at the next level? Do you not want our players to be successful in the NBA?

It’s always funny to me to see how people talk about the NBA and their clear misunderstanding of the game as a whole. DC doesn’t need a midrange game lol, he needs better shooting touch, we can agree there. Improvement in his FT percentage is definitely an area he can/will work on, we’ve seen what can happen in the NBA when guys can’t shoot free throws (hack a shaq).

There’s ton of things to work on, midrange pull ups is like near the botttom. The mid range game isn’t dead in the NBA, but you have to be so prolific in that area to have it be a focus in your game. The odd thing is, two of the best mid range guys play on the same team: Durant & Booker. Love watching those guys play. But midrange works for them because they can get to their spots & elevate. Kawhi is another guy in there too. Few others, but Durant & Booker are like the kings of it currently, lethal in that area.

 

[husky429]

Ok we should define mid range. But look at the chart you attached for Jokic. 86 mid range shots and 141 3 point shots. Or look at it this way any shot in the paint he shot better that 60%. Which is the important metric. You only get so many shot attempts per game. If you are a 40% or about 40% 3 point shooter that is 12 points per ten shots. He took 86 mid range shots and shot 52%. So would you rather have ten points for every ten shots or twelve points. Not saying I agree but math almost ruined baseball, and it has definitely impacted the beauty of pure basketball. But it is what it is.

No basketball coach is telling their stars to take 0 mid-range shots. It's just not the first option.

We design plays to get to the rim or get a 3. If that is taken away by the team defense, you look if anyone else has a high % shot available and make the pass. After that (or in a late shot clock situation), we use that 1 dribble pull-up from 15 feet.

The pump-fake and 1 dribble pull-up is still an important part of the game. The 3 dribble iso mid-range crap was never good basketball. The late 90s and early 2000s is what nearly ruined the game of basketball with that crap.

 

[Deleted at users request]

It’s always funny to me to see how people talk about the NBA and their clear misunderstanding of the game as a whole. DC doesn’t need a midrange game lol, he needs better shooting touch, we can agree there. Improvement in his FT percentage is definitely an area he can/will work on, we’ve seen what can happen in the NBA when guys can’t shoot free throws (hack a shaq).

There’s ton of things to work on, midrange pull ups is like near the botttom. The mid range game isn’t dead in the NBA, but you have to be so prolific in that area to have it be a focus in your game. The odd thing is, two of the best mid range guys play on the same team: Durant & Booker. Love watching those guys play. But midrange works for them because they can get to their spots & elevate. Kawhi is another guy in there too. Few others, but Durant & Booker are like the kings of it currently, lethal in that area.

SGA took over double the amount of mid range shots than threes and he was 1st team All NBA.

SGA: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander | Oklahoma City Thunder

Jalen Brunson just carried the Knicks on one of their best postseason runs in awhile leaning on mid range shots.

Brunson:

Jalen Brunson | Guard | New York Knicks

Jalen Brunson bio, latest news, videos, and exclusive content. Discover his awards, honors, and career achievements. Stay updated and find out when his next game is.

www.nba.com

You know who follows the formula that gets talked about here? Julius Randle.

Randle:

Julius Randle | Forward-Center | Minnesota Timberwolves | NBA.com

Julius Randle bio, latest news, videos, and exclusive content. Discover his awards, honors, and career achievements. Stay updated and find out when his next game is.

www.nba.com

De’Aron Fox was the most clutch player in the NBA off mid range shots and led his team to a 2 seed. Sabonis also lived there.

Fox:

De'Aaron Fox | Guard | San Antonio Spurs | NBA.com

De'Aaron Fox bio, latest news, videos, and exclusive content. Discover his awards, honors, and career achievements. Stay updated and find out when his next game is.

www.nba.com

Sabonis:

Domantas Sabonis | Forward-Center | Sacramento Kings | NBA.com

Domantas Sabonis bio, latest news, videos, and exclusive content. Discover his awards, honors, and career achievements. Stay updated and find out when his next game is.

www.nba.com

I’m counting mid range as shots between 8-24ft. Where are these examples of STAR players who are successful without having a lethal mid range game?

 

[HuskyHawk]

Facts don't change the narrative for folks living in fantasy-land.

I try, because I loved the 80s teams, actually rooted for the Lakers over Celtics because I loved the "showtime" style of play and Magic. Then came the ISO era and yeah, that was dreadful. Jordan was individually brilliant, but before they changed the rules in the early 2000s it was ugly ball. I gave up on the NBA. Then I came back as it changed and motion offenses and shifting defenses arrived.

If anyone liked the way UConn played on offense and defense last season, then they'd like the modern NBA. We probably played the most NBA like system of any team in college basketball.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

SGA took over double the amount of mid range shots than threes and he was 1st team All NBA.

SGA: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander | Oklahoma City Thunder

Jalen Brunson just carried the Knicks on one of their best postseason runs in awhile leaning on mid range shots.

Brunson:

Jalen Brunson | Guard | New York Knicks

Jalen Brunson bio, latest news, videos, and exclusive content. Discover his awards, honors, and career achievements. Stay updated and find out when his next game is.

www.nba.com

You know who follows the formula that gets talked about here? Julius Randle.

Randle:

Julius Randle | Forward-Center | Minnesota Timberwolves | NBA.com

Julius Randle bio, latest news, videos, and exclusive content. Discover his awards, honors, and career achievements. Stay updated and find out when his next game is.

www.nba.com

De’Aron Fox was the most clutch player in the NBA off mid range shots and led his team to a 2 seed. Sabonis also lived there.

Fox:

De'Aaron Fox | Guard | San Antonio Spurs | NBA.com

De'Aaron Fox bio, latest news, videos, and exclusive content. Discover his awards, honors, and career achievements. Stay updated and find out when his next game is.

www.nba.com

Sabonis:

Domantas Sabonis | Forward-Center | Sacramento Kings | NBA.com

Domantas Sabonis bio, latest news, videos, and exclusive content. Discover his awards, honors, and career achievements. Stay updated and find out when his next game is.

www.nba.com

I’m counting mid range as shots between 8-24ft. Where are these examples of STAR players who are successful without having a lethal mid range game?

And non of those players/teams went anywhere. 3’s and open shots at the rim are, and will now always be the better shots.

 

[August_West]

And non of those players/teams went anywhere. 3’s and open shots at the rim are, and will now always be the better shots.

Yeah thats a tough one. Julius Randle shot the knicks out of a series.

 

[Deleted at users request]

I agree with your overall premise. Clyde and Earl the Pearl were my favorite players growing up and they lived and dominated in the mid range. I hope they move the three point line out to a liner straight across the court and make it a 30ft shot. Because these players are getting better and better at making threes and ultimately I don’t think that is good for the game. Bring back hand checking and the physicality that once was so much part of the game. But fans want to see the long ball or dunks. So as a business the nba created a product that spaces the floor and these guys either heave it up from three or go full throttle down open lanes for dunks. Not the game I grew up playing.

Yeah the league has evolved a lot to where guys are very capable of making that shot and most importantly, no one is afraid to take the shot.

I think the Nuggets are a perfect example of how beautiful the game can be with scorers who can space the floor but not rely on a three ball at the same time. They can take and hit shots from anywhere.

 

[Fatroony5]

SGA took over double the amount of mid range shots than threes and he was 1st team All NBA.

SGA: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander | Oklahoma City Thunder

Jalen Brunson just carried the Knicks on one of their best postseason runs in awhile leaning on mid range shots.

Brunson:

Jalen Brunson | Guard | New York Knicks

Jalen Brunson bio, latest news, videos, and exclusive content. Discover his awards, honors, and career achievements. Stay updated and find out when his next game is.

www.nba.com

You know who follows the formula that gets talked about here? Julius Randle.

Randle:

Julius Randle | Forward-Center | Minnesota Timberwolves | NBA.com

Julius Randle bio, latest news, videos, and exclusive content. Discover his awards, honors, and career achievements. Stay updated and find out when his next game is.

www.nba.com

De’Aron Fox was the most clutch player in the NBA off mid range shots and led his team to a 2 seed. Sabonis also lived there.

Fox:

De'Aaron Fox | Guard | San Antonio Spurs | NBA.com

De'Aaron Fox bio, latest news, videos, and exclusive content. Discover his awards, honors, and career achievements. Stay updated and find out when his next game is.

www.nba.com

Sabonis:

Domantas Sabonis | Forward-Center | Sacramento Kings | NBA.com

Domantas Sabonis bio, latest news, videos, and exclusive content. Discover his awards, honors, and career achievements. Stay updated and find out when his next game is.

www.nba.com

I’m counting mid range as shots between 8-24ft. Where are these examples of STAR players who are successful without having a lethal mid range game?

Huh? I never said star players don’t need it, their stars because they’re efficient at all 3 levels. There are players who are more lethal at it then others. For a lot of players, playing in the midrange isn’t a good shot, it’s just not. People have figured this out which is why unless you’re super efficient in the mid range, the game is more so played from the paint and 3s. The iso midrange stuff isn’t good for a lot of guys. I was pointing to Clingan and saying he doesn’t need to work on that, why would he? Tons of things he can/needs to work on, midrange isn’t at the top of that list.

 

[Deleted at users request]

And non of those players/teams went anywhere. 3’s and open shots at the rim are, and will now always be the better shots.

We’re watching Jimmy Butler and Bam in the Finals right now.

WCF was Jokic vs Bron and AD. Two other guys who don’t lean on the three and beat a team in the Semis who did. Jokic played against those two mid range demons in his semis matchup before that.

In the East it was Joel and the guy who follows the formula Harden vs the Celtics. Then the mid range killer Brunson carrying the Knicks against the Heat.

 

[auror]

If you're going to take a dribble pull-up 1 on 1 shot, it should probably be a 2 instead of a 3, just from sheer difficulty (unless you're a Steph/Dame caliber shooter and on the smaller side). So this is a good skill for wing and big primary scoring options to work on.

If you are any other player archetype, you should definitely practice 3s much more than 2s.

You can also develop the midrange game in the pros if need be (see Embiid, et al).

 

[CardiacAndre7]

We’re watching Jimmy Butler and Bam in the Finals right now.

WCF was Jokic vs Bron and AD. Two other guys who don’t lean on the three and beat a team in the Semis who did. Jokic played against those two mid range demons in his semis matchup before that.

In the East it was Joel and the guy who follows the formula Harden vs the Celtics. Then the mid range killer Brunson carrying the Knicks against the Heat.

AD wasn’t very good for most of the series and missed a strong majority of his shots. Jokic was mostly scoring at the rim. Jamal had a great series too, so no, it wasn’t AD and Bron vs Jokic.

 

[Deleted at users request]

AD wasn’t very good for most of the series and missed a strong majority of his shots. Jokic was mostly scoring at the rim. Jamal had a great series too, so no, it wasn’t AD and Bron vs Jokic.

I’m just saying those were the primary stars of the series. Jamal definitely deserves to be in there too. But the fact is, most of those winning teams featured guys who relied heavily on the “bad” midrange shot more than threes. I think Jamal has shot more threes than mid ranges this playoffs, but he still is also a very elite mid range guy too.

Jamal Murray | Guard | Denver Nuggets | NBA.com

Jamal Murray bio, latest news, videos, and exclusive content. Discover his awards, honors, and career achievements. Stay updated and find out when his next game is.

www.nba.com

 

[HuskyHawk]

We’re watching Jimmy Butler and Bam in the Finals right now.

WCF was Jokic vs Bron and AD. Two other guys who don’t lean on the three and beat a team in the Semis who did. Jokic played against those two mid range demons in his semis matchup before that.

In the East it was Joel and the guy who follows the formula Harden vs the Celtics. Then the mid range killer Brunson carrying the Knicks against the Heat.

And the team that won almost every game was the team that shot best from 3. Miami has been over 50% from 3 several times and won every one of those games, including the last one and game 7 vs Boston.

 

[Deleted at users request]

If you're going to take a dribble pull-up 1 on 1 shot, it should probably be a 2 instead of a 3, just from sheer difficulty (unless you're a Steph/Dame caliber shooter and on the smaller side). So this is a good skill for wing and big primary scoring options to work on.

If you are any other player archetype, you should definitely practice 3s much more than 2s.

You can also develop the midrange game in the pros if need be (see Embiid, et al).

I guess the question is what kind of players do we want our guys to be?

If we just want to see them carve out a nice role in the NBA then yeah, they should just work on threes. But if we want to see them be franchise players, they need to be on the Kemba Walker plan. I wish Andre spent more time on that.

Castle and Donovan both have potential to be franchise guys. I would like to see them develop dominant mid range games to compliment their shooting to become good iso scorers. Calhoun did a great job of developing iso scorers while also having guys play in a well ran offense. It’s something Hawkins is lacking heading to the league that Jeremy Lamb didn’t. Hawkins just has a much better release to makeup for it.

Btw, Embiid didn’t attempt threes in college so you can say the same about that.

 

[auror]

I guess the question is what kind of players do we want our guys to be?

If we just want to see them carve out a nice role in the NBA then yeah, they should just work on threes. But if we want to see them be franchise players, they need to be on the Kemba Walker plan. I wish Andre spent more time on that.

Castle and Donovan both have potential to be franchise guys. I would like to see them develop dominant mid range games to compliment their shooting to become good iso scorers. Calhoun did a great job of developing iso scorers while also having guys play in a well ran offense. It’s something Hawkins is lacking heading to the league that Jeremy Lamb didn’t. Hawkins just has a much better release to makeup for it.

Btw, Embiid didn’t attempt threes in college so you can say the same about that.

I agree Castle should work on both (and it's my impression that he does have both levels in his game).

Donovan should prioritize the 3 first, then add the midrange 2 if it seems that he needs it. His most likely role in the NBA is rim-runner/spacer a Walker Kessler/Jaren Jackson type role. Essentially, if he doesn't already have it, I doubt he'll get his midrange game to a level where NBA decision makers will think he's a primary scoring option using the midrange, because those 1v1 type moves are heavily contested, difficult shots. Whereas open 3s are an easier thing to add in one summer.