PG Tremont Waters (UConn Offer)

[Kitaman]

So there is this Tremont Waters kid..... That's what this thread is, right ?

Actually its a Boneyard thread and a very typical one at that.

I think after a couple of pages somehow we all lose our attention span (and interestingly, there we are a bunch of college educated people). Just saying derailments are very common, and dare I say the norm.

 

[husky99]

Kansas Hosting Tremont Waters, Collin Sexton, Troy Brown for Late Night

 

[Stinger92860]

I understand he is looking at all of his options, but it just feels like he does not want to come here. Many kids want to get away.

 

[BlueMAB]

We are at 33-34% minorities now for Freshman. No fair to white kids with better SATs but I understand the need to give minorities a chance - my own view is go ahead and try this but for CT residents increase enrollments - so qualified whites kids won't be disadvantage - This would reduce out of state students - who pay twice the tuition - so unlikely to happen.

Apologies to Tremont Waters, but a few comments required a response...

There have been studies dating back over 30 years that have shown SATs are not as strong of a predictor of college success as HS GPA is for most students, but even more so for people of color.

That whites have benefited from the SAT being used doesn't mean they are now being unfairly treated. The opposite is true. With more of a focus on HS GPA over the SAT score, the playing field is being leveled.

The argument that was made by @pj that minorities are less likely to graduate (with the implication being they are therefore less deserving of admission) is insensitive at a minimum, and borderline racist. People of color, particularly blacks, who have lower graduation rates are more likely to come from a single parent household, more likely to be economically disadvantaged, and more likely to go to school part time (which means their graduation rate isn't tracked).

The implication that we should give people of color fewer opportunities to earn a college degree, because they are less likely to graduate, will inevitably result in the college degree gap remaining the same or widening. Education, like wealth, tends to be "handed down" by generation. People who go to college, tend to raise children that go to college, for numerous reasons. Improving the graduation rate for people of color will take time and resources, but giving less people of color the opportunity because of "disadvantaged whites" will guarantee the status quo.

Read this It Would Take 228 Years for Black Families to Amass Wealth of White Families, Analysis Says and then come back and complain about "disadvantaged whites".

 

[UConnSwag11]

Apologies to Tremont Waters, but a few comments required a response...

There have been studies dating back over 30 years that have shown SATs are not as strong of a predictor of college success as HS GPA is for most students, but even more so for people of color.

That whites have benefited from the SAT being used doesn't mean they are now being unfairly treated. The opposite is true. With more of a focus on HS GPA over the SAT score, the playing field is being leveled.

The argument that was made by @pj that minorities are less likely to graduate (with the implication being they are therefore less deserving of admission) is insensitive at a minimum, and borderline racist. People of color, particularly blacks, who have lower graduation rates are more likely to come from a single parent household, more likely to be economically disadvantaged, and more likely to go to school part time (which means their graduation rate isn't tracked).

The implication that we should give people of color fewer opportunities to earn a college degree, because they are less likely to graduate, will inevitably result in the college degree gap remaining the same or widening. Education, like wealth, tends to be "handed down" by generation. People who go to college, tend to raise children that go to college, for numerous reasons. Improving the graduation rate for people of color will take time and resources, but giving less people of color the opportunity because of "disadvantaged whites" will guarantee the status quo.

Read this It Would Take 228 Years for Black Families to Amass Wealth of White Families, Analysis Says and then come back and complain about "disadvantaged whites".

keep increasing taxes, keep increasing welfare, keep up the drug war if you don't want to see improvements. If you want improvements you have to end those, especially the drug war and ease off welfare. I agree sats and standardized tests are pointless to determine success further on.

 

[UConnStats]

I understand he is looking at all of his options, but it just feels like he does not want to come here. Many kids want to get away.

I think if anything it shows he isn't Duke or UConn's first choice at PG. I don't blame him for looking elsewhere as that much has been clear for some time now.

 

[Chief00]

Whenever someone white or black starts using the word borderline "racist" in a discussion it kind of has an undesirable chilling effect on people of all races talking about an issue. I find it's best not to go there if you want the exchange to be productive. One could argue everyone based on their experience is racist to some extent - so what's the point?

Now to the practical problem - when you get over 30 thousand applications - the SAT is a tool that is used to weed out applications below a certain threshold - fair or unfair - it also then allows time to focus more on the apps that make the cut. The problem with GPA - is a 4.0 is not the same caliber one HS to another - so is that fair?

For most applicants there is some rough range correlation between GPA and SAT. You don't usually get someone with great SATs that had a lousy GPA. It does happen but when you have a stack of 30-40 thousand applicants - it's not a perfect World.

 

[BlueMAB]

We are at 33-34% minorities now for Freshman. No fair to white kids with better SATs but I understand the need to give minorities a chance - my own view is go ahead and try this but for CT residents increase enrollments - so qualified whites kids won't be disadvantage - This would reduce out of state students - who pay twice the tuition - so unlikely to happen.

Whenever someone white or black starts using the word borderline "racist" in a discussion it kind of has an undesirable chilling effect on people of all races talking about an issue. I find it's best not to go there if you want the exchange to be productive. One could argue everyone based on their experience is racist to some extent - so what's the point?

Now to the practical problem - when you get over 30 thousand applications - the SAT is a tool that is used to weed out applications below a certain threshold - fair or unfair - it also then allows time to focus more on the apps that make the cut. The problem with GPA - is a 4.0 is not the same caliber one HS to another - so is that fair?

For most applicants there is some rough range correlation between GPA and SAT. You don't usually get someone with great SATs that had a lousy GPA. It does happen but when you have a stack of 30-40 thousand applicants - it's not a perfect World.

Do you not see the amount of hypocrisy between these two statements?

You complain about qualified whites being at a disadvantage, while arguing that similarly qualified people of color should continue to be at a disadvantage. You clearly show that you're only concerned enough to act when white students are at a disadvantage ("increase enrollment"), but when it's students of color, you're willing to accept the SAT with it's inevitable skewed results (don't change how much the SAT is weighted).

While ignoring the racial breakdown given to you by upstater.

And you DON'T want to be called racist?

Please just stop.

 

[Chief00]

Do you not see the amount of hypocrisy between these two statements?

You complain about qualified whites being at a disadvantage, while arguing that similarly qualified people of color should continue to be at a disadvantage. You clearly show that you're only concerned enough to act when white students are at a disadvantage ("increase enrollment"), but when it's students of color, you're willing to accept the SAT with it's inevitable skewed results (don't change how much the SAT is weighted).

While ignoring the racial breakdown given to you by upstater.

And you DON'T want to be called racist?

Please just stop.

I did not complain about whites being at a disadvantage - I merely stated what you were proposing would have that impact. In fact, I have always been in favor of affirmative action - I just don't delude myself to think that also doesn't disadvantage other individuals - it's called intellectual honesty. Whenever you tip the scale on one side you inherently move the scale down on the other side - since they are all in the same app pool. That's why I said to try what they are proposing but to also increase in state enrollment vs out of state so we could have greater minority enrollment as you advocate but also not disadvantage other kids in state whose parents also pay taxes. I thought that was a pretty fair approach to all.

You bold out some parts of a sentence and not others that contradict your point where I say I understand the need - to give minorities preference.

People with weak arguments often name call , which is an emotional rather than a logical way of reviewing an issue.

 

[BlueMAB]

I did not complain about whites being at a disadvantage - I merely stated what you were proposing would have that impact. In fact, I have always been in favor of affirmative action - I just don't delude myself to think that also doesn't disadvantage other individuals - it's called intellectual honesty. Whenever you tip the scale on one side you inherently move the scale down on the other side - since they are all in the same app pool. That's why I said to try what they are proposing but to also increase in state enrollment vs out of state so we could have greater minority enrollment as you advocate but also not disadvantage other kids in state whose parents also pay taxes. I thought that was a pretty fair approach to all.

You bold out some parts of a sentence and not others that contradict your point where I say I understand the need - to give minorities preference.

People with weak arguments often name call , which is an emotional rather than a logical way of reviewing an issue.

Reducing the weight given to the SAT is not giving people of color preference, it's giving them a more level playing field.

If you can't figure out that reducing an unfair advantage is entirely different from creating a disadvantage then I think this conversation is above your level. The only way your argument makes sense is if you believe the scales aren't already tipped in favor of whites. If you believe that, you aren't being intellectually honest.

I'll make it simple. If you play a football game with 12 players against a team with 10 players you have an unfair advantage. Removing the 2 players from one team, so that both teams have 10 players isn't creating a disadvantage for the team that had 12. It's leveling the competitive field of play.

Giving more weight to a GPA because the SAT has proven to be 1) less reliable and 2) culturally biased, doesn't mean whites are somehow disadvantaged. It means the advantage they previously enjoyed will be reduced. This is about equal opportunity. If the SAT hadn't already been shown to be less important than the GPA, and culturally biased in favor of whites, then I wouldn't be arguing against it's importance. But it's seriously flawed, and results in whites being given an advantage.

Increasing state enrollment will prevent whites from being disadvantaged? Why, is that because there are no black people in Connecticut? Unless you increase state enrollment for whites only, your proposal won't do anything to keep whites from being oppressed.

 

[Huskybass]

Reducing the weight given to the SAT is not giving people of color preference, it's giving them a more level playing field.

If you can't figure out that reducing an unfair advantage is entirely different from creating a disadvantage then I think this conversation is above your level. The only way your argument makes sense is if you believe the scales aren't already tipped in favor of whites. If you believe that, you aren't being intellectually honest.

I'll make it simple. If you play a football game with 12 players against a team with 10 players you have an unfair advantage. Removing the 2 players from one team, so that both teams have 10 players isn't creating a disadvantage for the team that had 12. It's leveling the competitive field of play.

Giving more weight to a GPA because the SAT has proven to be 1) less reliable and 2) culturally biased, doesn't mean whites are somehow disadvantaged. It means the advantage they previously enjoyed will be reduced. This is about equal opportunity. If the SAT hadn't already been shown to be less important than the GPA, and culturally biased in favor of whites, then I wouldn't be arguing against it's importance. But it's seriously flawed, and results in whites being given an advantage.

Increasing state enrollment will prevent whites from being disadvantaged? Why, is that because there are no black people in Connecticut? Unless you increase state enrollment for whites only, your proposal won't do anything to keep whites from being oppressed.

You are way too impressed with yourself.

 

[pj]

The argument that was made by @pj that minorities are less likely to graduate (with the implication being they are therefore less deserving of admission) is insensitive at a minimum, and borderline racist. People of color, particularly blacks, who have lower graduation rates are more likely to come from a single parent household, more likely to be economically disadvantaged, and more likely to go to school part time (which means their graduation rate isn't tracked).

The implication that we should give people of color fewer opportunities to earn a college degree, because they are less likely to graduate, will inevitably result in the college degree gap remaining the same or widening.

You talk like someone with no familiarity with the modern university environment.

The reality is that many minorities who fail to graduate, or take many years to graduate, from elite institutions would graduate just fine in four years from a less competitive institution. They are accepted with more lenient admission standards but then they take the same classes with the same grading standards as other students. Or, they self-segregate into majors with minimal academic standards, like African-American Studies, when they would have been better off majoring in engineering or some such useful major, which they might well have done if they had been accepted into a better fit.

There's no reason to think that people of color would have fewer opportunities to earn college degrees if admissions were designed to ensure that they were competitive in the classroom. Just as likely it would be the reverse - more would obtain degrees.

 

[Matrim55]

You talk like someone with no familiarity with the modern university environment.

The reality is that many minorities who fail to graduate, or take many years to graduate, from elite institutions would graduate just fine in four years from a less competitive institution.

This was an awful argument when Scalia made it and it's even worse coming from you.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

This was an awful argument when Scalia made it and it's even worse coming from you.

Yeah that is basically Scalia in Abigail Fisher.

 

[David 76]

You talk like someone with no familiarity with the modern university environment.

The reality is that many minorities who fail to graduate, or take many years to graduate, from elite institutions would graduate just fine in four years from a less competitive institution. They are accepted with more lenient admission standards but then they take the same classes with the same grading standards as other students. Or, they self-segregate into majors with minimal academic standards, like African-American Studies, when they would have been better off majoring in engineering or some such useful major, which they might well have done if they had been accepted into a better fit.

There's no reason to think that people of color would have fewer opportunities to earn college degrees if admissions were designed to ensure that they were competitive in the classroom. Just as likely it would be the reverse - more would obtain degrees.

Separate point from what Wing explained.
We can accept minorities at a level where they can succeed without deciding minorities would be better off at "less competitive institutions". Whenever I have heard that it always surprises me that people would even say that out loud.

I am much more concerned that 50 percent of UConn's admissions now go to out of staters than by our achieving a minority enrollment that better reflects our population. I just visited U of MD and they have 25 percent out of state students

 

[BlueMAB]

You talk like someone with no familiarity with the modern university environment.

The reality is that many minorities who fail to graduate, or take many years to graduate, from elite institutions would graduate just fine in four years from a less competitive institution. They are accepted with more lenient admission standards but then they take the same classes with the same grading standards as other students. Or, they self-segregate into majors with minimal academic standards, like African-American Studies, when they would have been better off majoring in engineering or some such useful major, which they might well have done if they had been accepted into a better fit.

There's no reason to think that people of color would have fewer opportunities to earn college degrees if admissions were designed to ensure that they were competitive in the classroom. Just as likely it would be the reverse - more would obtain degrees.

wow. just wow. I'm at the football game. And this post is worse than what I'm watching. Ps. I'm a year removed from college and currently in grad school.

 

[BlueMAB]

Separate point from what Wing explained.
We can accept minorities at a level where they can succeed without deciding minorities would be better off at "less competitive institutions". Whenever I have heard that it always surprises me that people would even say that out loud.

I am much more concerned that 50 percent of UConn's admissions now go to out of staters than by our achieving a minority enrollment that better reflects our population. I just visited U of MD and they have 25 percent out of state students

. This. Posts like pj's are the reason I tell people the north is just as racist as the south. It's just presented in a different manner. Instead of using the n word, they just say you're stupid, go to community college.

 

[BlueMAB]

You are way too impressed with yourself.

I said nothing about myself in that post. So what you're saying is you can't refute my argument and would rather talk about me? Cool story bro. G. F. Y.

 

[Huskybass]

I said nothing about myself in that post. So what you're saying is you can't refute my argument and would rather talk about me? Cool story bro. G. F. Y.

You continue to dazzle.

 

[pj]

. This. Posts like pj's are the reason I tell people the north is just as racist as the south. It's just presented in a different manner. Instead of using the n word, they just say you're stupid, go to community college.

Who said anything like that? No one. The question is how to bring the best opportunities to people. You're the only one engaging in insults.

 

[BlueMAB]

You continue to dazzle.

You're welcome.

 

[huskiesNhoos]

Can we try and steer this thread back to that guy whose name is in the title? That or maybe start a separate OT or cesspool thread to argue over who's the least racist?

Waters will visit KU, gtown, and Indiana this month. Seems like we can say next on him, especially if we get the good news were all hoping for this weekend.

He reminds me of nadir tharpe, being anice undersized guard from new England that ended up at KU. Granted waters is a much better shooter, and will hopefully have more success at the college level

 

[KemBuckets21]

Can we try and steer this thread back to that guy whose name is in the title? That or maybe start a separate OT or cesspool thread to argue over who's the least racist?

Waters will visit KU, gtown, and Indiana this month. Seems like we can say next on him, especially if we get the good news were all hoping for this weekend.

He reminds me of nadir tharpe, being anice undersized guard from new England that ended up at KU. Granted waters is a much better shooter, and will hopefully have more success at the college level

thank you for getting this thread back on topic.

 

[BlueMAB]

Who said anything like that? No one. The question is how to bring the best opportunities to people. You're the only one engaging in insults.

As multiple posters have mentioned, you did.

And you posted about what majors people of color should or shouldn't select, there's a discussion to be had there, but it has nothing to do with opportunity

BECAUSE YOU CAN'T PICK A MAJOR UNTIL YOU GET INTO COLLEGE

 

[huskiesNhoos]

Also, according to Zags, the other schools still on his list are UCONN, duke, UK, and Yale. I'd be worried if he ends up at duke or UK he'll get recruited over and not last 4 years in either place...

would be really cool to see him end up at Yale and shutup all the people blabbering on in this thread about how concerned he really is with education

 

[BlueMAB]

thank you for getting this thread back on topic.

I apologize, honestly. But sometimes posts hit home and you have to speak up. Doesn't make me less responsible for the derailment.

 

[BlueMAB]

You're the only one engaging in insults.

You are way too impressed with yourself.

You continue to dazzle.

Just gonna leave this here.

Best of luck Tremont with whatever school he chooses.

 

[KemBuckets21]

I apologize, honestly. But sometimes posts hit home and you have to speak up. Doesn't make me less responsible for the derailment.

No apology necessary. Its an extremely sensitive subject and one that merits thoughtful debate. I found your points to be well thought out and I agree with much of what you said. I actually might have opposed your point of view until the last few years when I started mentoring kids in NYC. Some of these kids lack a very basic support system. My mom helped me fill out my college apps, first kid I worked with had a mother who was a lush and couldn't care less about his future. He had no idea how to approach the college application process, which as you know, is daunting for someone to take on by him/herself.

He's at Fordham now and actually scored in about the 70th percentile on the SAT. I don't know what the new test is like since they added the writing section, but he did pretty well and he fit in the average for Fordham students.

Very happy for him.

 

[gtcam]

Reducing the weight given to the SAT is not giving people of color preference, it's giving them a more level playing field.

If you can't figure out that reducing an unfair advantage is entirely different from creating a disadvantage then I think this conversation is above your level. The only way your argument makes sense is if you believe the scales aren't already tipped in favor of whites. If you believe that, you aren't being intellectually honest.

I'll make it simple. If you play a football game with 12 players against a team with 10 players you have an unfair advantage. Removing the 2 players from one team, so that both teams have 10 players isn't creating a disadvantage for the team that had 12. It's leveling the competitive field of play.

Giving more weight to a GPA because the SAT has proven to be 1) less reliable and 2) culturally biased, doesn't mean whites are somehow disadvantaged. It means the advantage they previously enjoyed will be reduced. This is about equal opportunity. If the SAT hadn't already been shown to be less important than the GPA, and culturally biased in favor of whites, then I wouldn't be arguing against it's importance. But it's seriously flawed, and results in whites being given an advantage.

Increasing state enrollment will prevent whites from being disadvantaged? Why, is that because there are no black people in Connecticut? Unless you increase state enrollment for whites only, your proposal won't do anything to keep whites from being oppressed.

the football analogy has me scratching my head and cultural bias is used way too much as an excuse/alibi - there's many with an Indian (as in country not native American) heritage who have far less culture exposure who seem to have some great success in taking the exam
lets make separate tests for white Americans, European Americans, Asian Americans, Africans, Russians, African Americans and Hispanics- would that even everything up? I don't see it
I also don't see using GPA as a greater barometer being more equitable because we all know grades can be subject to teacher bias/whim and outside pressures
Stating that a conversation is above someone's head is treading on arrogance
There is no simple answer because education is so uneven in this country - from town to town
I feel its up to the individual on how hard they work, how much they want to succeed and no matter what test is placed in front of them, if they prepared properly, in most cases they will succeed.
There has to be a standardized mechanism that will allow comparative results and until someone comes up with that piece, the SATs are one they have now.
I am not saying that the SATs are the answer but it beats what relying on GPA could do (UNC?)

 

[gtcam]

No apology necessary. Its an extremely sensitive subject and one that merits thoughtful debate. I found your points to be well thought out and I agree with much of what you said. I actually might have opposed your point of view until the last few years when I started mentoring kids in NYC. Some of these kids lack a very basic support system. My mom helped me fill out my college apps, first kid I worked with had a mother who was a lush and couldn't care less about his future. He had no idea how to approach the college application process, which as you know, is daunting for someone to take on by him/herself.

He's at Fordham now and actually scored in about the 70th percentile on the SAT. I don't know what the new test is like since they added the writing section, but he did pretty well and he fit in the average for Fordham students.

Very happy for him.

GREAT STORY