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Men Penders needs to be suspended

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Funny story: I remember when Keith Law was complaining in the past about Penders' use of his pitchers and over using them... this was a few series back, I want to say it was the Oklahoma State series. I actually got into it a bit with him on twitter and he specifically mentioned how Stanford treated their pitchers so much better like Mark Appel.

Funny if you check Mark Appel's career history.
 
It is an interesting discussion. It is very true that pitching on 2 or 3 days rest increases the chance of injury. The option would be for the NCAA to establish pitch count/rest standards. This would essentially hand the regionals to the power teams who are able to recruit and keep a bevy of top level pitchers. I did a quick review of Vanderbilt's box scores, as they had to go through the losers bracket in the Oregon St. Regional. Vandy used 12 pitchers and only one pitcher was used twice in the regional. They had a couple of blow out games and didn't have to use many arms in those games. Even in the final elimination game against Oregon St. they used 5 pitchers that did not see action in the previous 4 games. That is depth that few teams have. Even Maryland had to use multiple pitchers on limited rest. I was in absolute disbelief when Maryland brought Ramsey in on Sunday after he threw 80 pitches on Friday. Penders actions w/ Peterson pale in comparison to what the Maryland coach did. If you establish pitch count standards for college baseball you might as well do away with the 64 team tournament as non-power conference school would have no chance. Even some power conference teams would be at a huge disadvantage w/ pitch count/rest standards.
 
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YearoftheHusky said:
Should Calhoun have benched Kemba during that BET and March Madness run bc of the back to backs and, well, people sustain lower body injuries all of the time if they are not rested?! See how dumb this argument is?
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This is a really good analogy.

I think most athletes want to get paid. Kemba got paid. He also got a title in college. Seems to be worth it. Kemba's biggest problem in the NBA was that he spent the best years of his career in Charlotte.
 
UConnRock said:
It is an interesting discussion. It is very true that pitching on 2 or 3 days rest increases the chance of injury. The option would be for the NCAA to establish pitch count/rest standards. This would essentially hand the regionals to the power teams who are able to recruit and keep a bevy of top level pitchers. I did a quick review of Vanderbilt's box scores, as they had to go through the losers bracket in the Oregon St. Regional. Vandy used 12 pitchers and only one pitcher was used twice in the regional. They had a couple of blow out games and didn't have to use many arms in those games. Even in the final elimination game against Oregon St. they used 5 pitchers that did not see action in the previous 4 games. That is depth that few teams have. Even Maryland had to use multiple pitchers on limited rest. I was in absolute disbelief when Maryland brought Ramsey in on Sunday after he threw 80 pitches on Friday. Penders actions w/ Peterson pale in comparison to what the Maryland coach did. If you establish pitch count standards for college baseball you might as well do away with the 64 team tournament as non-power conference school would have no chance. Even some power conference teams would be at a huge disadvantage w/ pitch count/rest standards.
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Between what's good for my entertainment and what's good for the athletic future of young men, that shouldn't even need a discussion. If it changes the competitive balance of regionals, argue for a single elimination tournament. Or expand the tourney by a week and do a pair of best of 3 series to get to 16. That shouldn't be what guides this.

But, as I said before, wanting the school to suspend Penders for playing by the rules and doing what his competitors are doing is really pretty dumb. If the current rules are causing a material risk of injury, change the damn rules. As the NCAA has done in football with the crackdown on targeting. They don't expect each coach to try to teach his players not to do things that the rules allow.
 
JMick is way overreacting. Peterson was into his 4th day of rest based on the time that he left the game on Friday and when he came in on Monday. A one-time scenario like this does not ruin a pitcher. I this was a regular occurrence, we could have this argument, but a guy throwing his bullpen in a game instead of practice for a regional is a non issue. 109 pitches is not some crazy taxing number like many seem to think. 100 pitches is used as a benchmark in general relative to keeping a guy fresh for the entire season, not in a one-off situation. I pitched in college as well, so I have some experience relative to this.
 
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I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread. People really can't possibly fathom that their favorite school could make a wrong decision. Lots of tough guys in this thread who know nothing about baseball/injuries
 
navery12 said:
I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread. People really can't possibly fathom that their favorite school could make a wrong decision. Lots of tough guys in this thread who know nothing about baseball/injuries
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You're embarrassed by people having a different opinion? i have yet to see anyone here say "F it, do what you gotta do to win". What I see are people arguing that the risk was not nearly as severe as some are making it out to be. Peterson was at 72+ hours of rest. He would have thrown 35 full out pitches in a bullpen session anyway. He is not going to be used like that regularly, or ever again.
 
navery12 said:
I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread. People really can't possibly fathom that their favorite school could make a wrong decision. Lots of tough guys in this thread who know nothing about baseball/injuries
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The tone of this post implies that UConn was the exception, not the rule. If you think the nature of the game should be changed, argue that, but it is extremely disingenuous to act like Penders himself did something unusual in any way shape or form.

Should we suspend all of the several coaches in the regional who did the same thing? Or maybe just maybe is it more tied to a broader issue you want to question? Be honest about that instead of doing the flashy ad hominem thing.
 
Just wanted to say I am actually pleasantly surprised by the responses in here. Level headed responses and pointing out the fact that this guy is calling for Penders head when it is common place in college baseball.

Listen, would I have preferred if Peterson didnt pitch? Absolutely, but he did and the coaching staff made that decision based on all their info. Thankfully, we have the Sat-Mon regional slot so we can rest all arms.

Last point, don't show up here in this forum after last night and put Penders on blast. You cannot question Jim Penders' (or any of the other coaches) integrity or care for his players. He is one of the most upstanding people I know. That is from the view point of growing up in CT and spending 4 years playing under him. And if you don't value my opinion, go jump on twitter and look at all the comments from former players and college baseball personnel. (off my soap box)
 
Jax Husky said:
You're embarrassed by people having a different opinion? i have yet to see anyone here say "F it, do what you gotta do to win". What I see are people arguing that the risk was not nearly as severe as some are making it out to be. Peterson was at 72+ hours of rest. He would have thrown 35 full out pitches in a bullpen session anyway. He is not going to be used like that regularly, or ever again.
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When the opinion is actively putting UConn baseball players in harm's way yes. The risk is incredibly severe and the science backs that up. The bullpen day theory has also been disproven by science, and doesn't really hold up when he had to throw 2 bullpen sessions to warm up (he was up twice before coming in) and then threw 50 pitches
 
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CtBaseball said:
The tone of this post implies that UConn was the exception, not the rule. If you think the nature of the game should be changed, argue that, but it is extremely disingenuous to act like Penders himself did something unusual in any way shape or form.

Should we suspend all of the several coaches in the regional who did the same thing? Or maybe just maybe is it more tied to a broader issue you want to question? Be honest about that instead of doing the flashy ad hominem thing.
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It's absolutely not just a Penders issue and is something that needs to be addressed as a whole. Penders didn't do something unusual, because he has a history of doing this and has been called out for it multiple times before. It's a major issue for him, despite him being one of the best college baseball coaches

I didn't say anything about suspending him so don't bring in a strawman argument here, take that up with JMick. As a repeat offender and a UConn fan of course I'm going to bring up Penders as the example, other coaches also being wrong doesn't make him right
 
navery12 said:
I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread. People really can't possibly fathom that their favorite school could make a wrong decision. Lots of tough guys in this thread who know nothing about baseball/injuries
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I pitched thru college. Most pitches thrown in a game was 161 in a 10 inning HS playoff game. I was capable of coming back in relatively short rest throughout college. Some pitchers can and some can't. Coaches know who can and can't based on throwing days between starts during the season. In general, the pitching coach would have the final say after consulting the pitcher. The pitcher/pitching coach relationship is vital to these decisions. I couldn't find an example of a pitcher who pitched on short rest during the CWS tournament and had a major injury. However, pitcher overuse is a cumulative process. If a pitcher was frequently overused in the regular season to win a conference title that would be a huge issue. Bottom line is that pitcher use is a recruiting issue. If a coach gets a "pitcher abuse" reputation he digs himself a big hole in recruiting.
 
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So many simps and so many excuses. Wrong is wrong. Your entertainment shouldn't be valued over a college athletes health.
 
Whatever. The science is good to create guidelines, but it does not look at singular situations with any context. Again, Peterson was into his 4th 24-hour period off. It is not something you want to do with any regularity, but a one-time scenario isn't as bad as many are making it to be in this case. I make no arguments for Penders' previous uses of pitchers. I am only speaking to this instance.
 
UConnRock said:
I pitched thru college. Most pitches thrown in a game was 161 in a 10 inning HS playoff game. I was capable of coming back in relatively short rest throughout college. Some pitchers can and some can't. Coaches know who can and can't based on throwing days between starts during the season. In general, the pitching coach would have the final say after consulting the pitcher. The pitcher/pitching coach relationship is vital to these decisions. I couldn't find an example of a pitcher who pitched on short rest during the CWS tournament and had a injury. If a pitcher was frequently overused in the regular season to win a conference title that would be a huge issue. Bottom line is that pitcher use is a recruiting issue. If a coach gets a "pitcher abuse" reputation he digs himself a big hole in recruiting.
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That's a fair point that every pitcher is different, and I don't doubt that Peterson wanted to pitch yesterday. I just think it's Penders job to know better than to let that happen.

And it may not have been in the CWS but it happened with Anthony Kay at UConn. Penders kept him in for 127 pitches in an 18-1 blowout win during the regular season, and then threw him 101 pitches in the conference tournament and brought him back for 90 more on 3 days rest. He was drafted that June and immediately got Tommy John
 
navery12 said:
And it may not have been in the CWS but it happened with Anthony Kay at UConn. Penders kept him in for 127 pitches in an 18-1 blowout win during the regular season, and then threw him 101 pitches in the conference tournament and brought him back for 90 more on 3 days rest. He was drafted that June and immediately got Tommy John
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If your argument here is about Anthony Kay, then fine. That is a pretty ridiculous scenario, and Penders deserves blame for that. That is not close to what happened with Peterson.
 
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Tell it to Nolan Ryan, Schilling, Gibson, Fergie Jenkins, the Niekros and hundreds of others who ignored the pitch count game and listened to their own arms.
I have the OP on ignore but was told what he said to start this off. Entitled to his opinion no matter how ridiculous it sounds/appears. If a college athlete feels he can go out there and pitch then you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. If Coach P put a gun to his head and forced him then yeah its not right but knowing JP, I am sure he asked the kid if he could go or the kid told JP he was a go.
OP can take his bat and go home now because he isn't even in the game on this, no matter how much ball he has said to have played,
Congrats Coach P and the entire UConn baseball family on an outstanding accomplishment - more to come!!!
 
navery12 said:
That's a fair point that every pitcher is different, and I don't doubt that Peterson wanted to pitch yesterday. I just think it's Penders job to know better than to let that happen.

And it may not have been in the CWS but it happened with Anthony Kay at UConn. Penders kept him in for 127 pitches in an 18-1 blowout win during the regular season, and then threw him 101 pitches in the conference tournament and brought him back for 90 more on 3 days rest. He was drafted that June and immediately got Tommy John
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Funny how no one else wanted to mention that

The responses in this thread are hilarious. People are acting like I want Penders tarred and feathered in the town square.

All I said is that the guy needs to be suspended because what he did is wrong. If no one else wants to set that precedent then we should. What's wrong with being on the forefront of change? Actions should have consequences.
 
CL82 said:
Or, perhaps no one else in the world considers it “morally questionable”. Just something to think about.
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Nah most people know it's wrong and they just do it anyway or sweep it under the rug. If you don't think it's wrong then you are stuck in the past and your opinion doesn't matter anyway. It's not 1970 anymore. Times have changed. We know more now than we did back then.
 
JMick said:
Nah most people know it's wrong and they just do it anyway or sweep it under the rug. If you don't think it's wrong then you are stuck in the past and your opinion doesn't matter anyway. It's not 1970 anymore. Times have changed. We know more now than we did back then.
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Lol, “I have an opinion and everyone else is wrong.”

OK then.
 
navery12 said:
I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread. People really can't possibly fathom that their favorite school could make a wrong decision. Lots of tough guys in this thread who know nothing about baseball/injuries
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1. You can't expect everyone to simply take your word for the fact that common practice allows material risks to be taken with pitchers arms that can be avoided. You very well may be right, but no rational person without in depth knowledge on this would take an anonymous poster's word for it.

2. More importantly, the incoming fire you're getting is not because of your medical opinion but because of the over the top solution. Which is suspending our coach for something that the rules allow and many other coaches do in these double elimination tournaments as well. Had you started with "The NCAA needs Pitch Count Mandates," you would not have gotten the same reaction. But even if you are 100% right on the medical, your proposal is not a sane solution to the problem.
 
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