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Men Penders needs to be suspended

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Perhaps some good points made by both sides. However, I definitely give Penders the benefit of the doubt, as I consider him to be one of the best UConn coaches period! Part of the problem is having a 64 team field and playing a double elimination regional tournament for the first weekend. With the double elimination condition, in effect, you start 132 "teams" (Each team has an alter ego if necessary. Consider zero loss UConn and one loss UConn etc. Zero loss UConn got beat, but one loss UConn won the regional.).

Sure you can win three straight and be done with it - 7 regional champions did just that this year. But you likely are going to have to play at least 4 games and might have to beat the same team twice. In part, this is because the fourth seeds generally don't survive to the final final. (Only 4th seed Air Force made it to a regional final - 1 of 16!) So, to keep auto bids for all conferences and the field at 64, maybe there could be a "play in" or "bye" scenario. I certainly don't want to see the auto bids go the way of the wind because I am not sure UConn would have made the field this year otherwise.
 
JMick said:
Nah most people know it's wrong and they just do it anyway or sweep it under the rug. If you don't think it's wrong then you are stuck in the past and your opinion doesn't matter anyway. It's not 1970 anymore. Times have changed. We know more now than we did back then.
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Correct! Times have changed! Something we agree on. Todays baseball players actually do strength and conditioning, prehab, rehab, and proper nutrition. They don’t just run poles for cooldown. And the science and training staff and light years ahead of the 1970s.
 
navery12 said:
That's a fair point that every pitcher is different, and I don't doubt that Peterson wanted to pitch yesterday. I just think it's Penders job to know better than to let that happen.

And it may not have been in the CWS but it happened with Anthony Kay at UConn. Penders kept him in for 127 pitches in an 18-1 blowout win during the regular season, and then threw him 101 pitches in the conference tournament and brought him back for 90 more on 3 days rest. He was drafted that June and immediately got Tommy John
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Holy crap. You just jumped from medical theories, where I know there is a basis for your conclusions, to you know for a medical fact that how he was used in one particular fortnight caused Anthony Kay's injury? And not cumulative long term effects of throwing? I doubt a surgeon would ever reach such a conclusion. So I assume you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express?
 
HookC22 said:
Correct! Times have changed! Something we agree on. Todays baseball players actually do strength and conditioning, prehab, rehab, and proper nutrition. They don’t just run poles for cooldown. And the science and training staff and light years ahead of the 1970s.
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i think some of the staff has been spending a bit too much time focusing on the not so proper nutrition and not on the strength/conditioning.
 
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businesslawyer said:
1. You can't expect everyone to simply take your word for the fact that common practice allows material risks to be taken with pitchers arms that can be avoided. You very well may be right, but no rational person without in depth knowledge on this would take an anonymous poster's word for it.

2. More importantly, the incoming fire you're getting is not because of your medical opinion but because of the over the top solution. Which is suspending our coach for something that the rules allow and many other coaches do in these double elimination tournaments as well. Had you started with "The NCAA needs Pitch Count Mandates," you would not have gotten the same reaction. But even if you are 100% right on the medical, your proposal is not a sane solution to the problem.
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I think you're confusing me with JMick, I did not suggest suspending Penders
 
HookC22 said:
Correct! Times have changed! Something we agree on. Todays baseball players actually do strength and conditioning, prehab, rehab, and proper nutrition. They don’t just run poles for cooldown. And the science and training staff and light years ahead of the 1970s.
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yeah that's why they all need tommy john surgery now.
 
navery12 said:
That's a fair point that every pitcher is different, and I don't doubt that Peterson wanted to pitch yesterday. I just think it's Penders job to know better than to let that happen.

And it may not have been in the CWS but it happened with Anthony Kay at UConn. Penders kept him in for 127 pitches in an 18-1 blowout win during the regular season, and then threw him 101 pitches in the conference tournament and brought him back for 90 more on 3 days rest. He was drafted that June and immediately got Tommy John
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And Crawford gets TJ after pitching a combined 20 innings (college and summer) over 2 years. Not defending the use of Kay in those situations, but the direct comparisons are difficult. Kay at 6' 200 lbs is just a different pitcher than Peterson at 6'6" 230
 
businesslawyer said:
Holy crap. You just jumped from medical theories, where I know there is a basis for your conclusions, to you know for a medical fact that how he was used in one particular fortnight caused Anthony Kay's injury? And not cumulative long term effects of throwing? I doubt a surgeon would ever reach such a conclusion. So I assume you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express?
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No I'm not saying any particular outing specifically caused his Tommy John, not with any level of certainty. But I don't think there's any argument against the idea that he was overused that season, and then got Tommy John. Maybe a coincidence, maybe not
 
JMick said:
yeah that's why they all need tommy john surgery now.
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There are probably 2 dozen pitchers that threw over 110 pitches total in multiple outings this weekend. I don't think even 5% of them will have Tommy John surgery (which btw, is a result of your genetics and mechanics more than anything).
 
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Let's not beat a dead horse. Why don't we all just give it a rest.
 
I looked at HS pitch count rules in every state and they require 3 or 4 days (about 50/50) of rest after throwing 109 pitches. In Connecticut, the CIAC requires 3 days of rest. Peterson had gone through three 24 hour rest periods before he pitched on Monday so his appearance was not outside the norm. All that said, using pitchers requires good communication between the coaches and the pitcher (and the bullpen catcher) as some pitchers require more time than others to recover from a start or an outing especially if they have an unorthodox throwing motion.

It does seem that the biggest issue with young arms is over-usage, especially with kids who pitch almost all year round and do not play multiple sports. The biggest change in youth baseball has been the extension of the season and that wears on young arms. It is not unusual for a youth to be focused on baseball and practice 11 months out the year and participate in Spring, Summer, and Fall baseball, sometimes on more than one team. If you have a kid who pitches, the parents have to have a pitch count log and communicate with coaches if their kid can or can not pitch as the coach may not know if the kid has pitched for another team.
 
There are a quite a few things that need to be said here. I would like to offer my opinion (from following baseball from the days when a pitcher who didn’t complete most of his starts was viewed as unreliable; all while working out of a four-man rotation).

Yes, as was pointed out, the delivery (and stress it places on the arm) is far more of a contributing factor than the number of pitches. Also, if trained properly (not sure what the regimen is for college pitchers today) there is no reason that a pitcher who started (and threw more than 100 pitches) one day could not throw another 25-30 in an actual game three calendar days later.

My biggest concern is that every team that played yesterday had the same issues, most at far higher levels than us. The format for a regular season allows for a three man (weekend) rotation and spot mid-week starts for other members of the pitching staff. It does not see feasible for a team to have five starters (which is what would be needed at worst case, four at best case) with sufficient innings under their belt to be trusted in games where the season would be in the balance yet, unless a team sweeps a regional (and CWS bracket two rounds later), they will be piecing together the arms that will be entrusted with keeping their seasons alive. This is insane.

I will continue later (as a lot of this began with a discussion last night that I initiated).
 
Is it possible that we should let a 22 year old adult who knows full well where his future ambitions lie make the decision on this?

Some of are you are acting like Penders is some LL coach forcing a naive innocent tiny 12 year old to throw 80% curveballs.

Peterson is a very large pitcher who likely knows his body more than us and knows what HE wants to do with his body when putting his own future at risk compared to achieving his ultimate college dreams and whether it’s worth it.

Now if it comes out that penders and staff pushed him out there and he didn’t want to do it, then I take it back. But what are the odds that’s the case?

Reminder he is a 22 year old adult (almost 23). Likely not a victim.
 
JMick said:
yeah that's why they all need tommy john surgery now.
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MLB rosters carry 13-14 pitchers on the 26 man at any given time. That's about 420 pitchers, not including those coming up from minors to replace guys being sent down.

In 2021, 32 MLB pitchers had TJ.

That's about 7.5%.

Which means 92.5% didn't.

"All" indeed.
 
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One sad thing is that many MLB pitchers have had TJS prior to making it to the bigs (age 18 - 20) and quite a few have had a second surgery.

I've actually heard minor leaguers who have had it that said "it's better to get it behind you at a young age".

I blame a couple pitches (split finger fastball, cut fastball) for 90% of the UCL injuries and love of velocity, without understanding proper mechanics (using the arm as a whip, ending with a violent wrist snap as means to add a small amount of velocity) for the remaining 10%.
 
FfldCntyFan said:
There are a quite a few things that need to be said here. I would like to offer my opinion (from following baseball from the days when a pitcher who didn’t complete most of his starts was viewed as unreliable; all while working out of a four-man rotation).

Yes, as was pointed out, the delivery (and stress it places on the arm) is far more of a contributing factor than the number of pitches. Also, if trained properly (not sure what the regimen is for college pitchers today) there is no reason that a pitcher who started (and threw more than 100 pitches) one day could not throw another 25-30 in an actual game three calendar days later.

My biggest concern is that every team that played yesterday had the same issues, most at far higher levels than us. The format for a regular season allows for a three man (weekend) rotation and spot mid-week starts for other members of the pitching staff. It does not see feasible for a team to have five starters (which is what would be needed at worst case, four at best case) with sufficient innings under their belt to be trusted in games where the season would be in the balance yet, unless a team sweeps a regional (and CWS bracket two rounds later), they will be piecing together the arms that will be entrusted with keeping their seasons alive. This is insane.

I will continue later (as a lot of this began with a discussion last night that I initiated).
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Peterson usually gets 6-8 days between games. The short 3 days was an anomoly.

Peterson’s games this year:

image001 2.png
 
JMick said:
109 pitches on Friday. Over 50 pitches today. It's inexcusable. The AD needs to step in and protect the athletes.
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Now THAT is a hot take.
 
HuskyNan said:
Peterson usually gets 6-8 days between games. The short 3 days was an anomoly.

Peterson’s games this year:

View attachment 76789
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Thanks Nan.

What that does not show is the throw days (between starts regimen).

If the number pitches thrown on 6/6 was about half of what he did throw, I would have had zero concerns. One thing that I was puzzled with was why he didn't have anyone ready. From the second batter in the seventh, it was clear that he was laboring (and this is when injuries occur). I can see looking for a bonus the way he finished the prior inning but Penders should have started his last inning ready to pull him at a moment's notice.
 
HuskyNan said:
Peterson usually gets 6-8 days between games. The short 3 days was an anomoly.

Peterson’s games this year:

View attachment 76789
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Nan, couldn't respond to the DM (if you look in the tech questions forum you'll see I've had this issue for months).

Starting pitchers normally throw a couple of days after a start in a bullpen session to maintain strength and endurance, keep their arms loose. There have been instances (at one time it was a regular occurrence in MLB) where they would have him pitch in an actual game instead of a bullpen session.
 
So in that Borges article, Peterson told Penders he wanted to pitch SUNDAY. Penders said no and he would see on Monday. Then goes into the conversation had between the two on Monday.

Again bottom line is that you have an older pitcher with a big frame who knows what’s at stake with his team and his health and his future and he wants to throw to get UConn into the Super.

I have no problem with the decision Penders made. No doubt the coach was hoping our outfield could catch the ball so it wouldn’t come to that but in the end Peterson and UConn got what they wanted.

I think as of now you target Peterson for the Monday game (game 3) to give him extra rest and hope you take game 1 so you can keep him in that spot if needed. If we lose game 1 you have to go to him on Sunday on 5 days rest
 
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JustbrewitMan said:
JMick & SuperJohn are the Drama-/Hysteria Twins of the 'Yard.
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JMick makes a really stupid post and quadruples down on it and you drag me in the thread. I've got a 5 bedroom penthouse in your head.
 
FfldCntyFan said:
Nan, couldn't respond to the DM (if you look in the tech questions forum you'll see I've had this issue for months).

Starting pitchers normally throw a couple of days after a start in a bullpen session to maintain strength and endurance, keep their arms loose. There have been instances (at one time it was a regular occurrence in MLB) where they would have him pitch in an actual game instead of a bullpen session.
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If he pitched in a game, it’s listed in the schedule, above.

Even the CIAC high school rules allows 25 pitches a day with no rest. Here’s an article on MLB and the pitch count. It’s interesting that they assess the pitcher based on his primary role, i.e. starter, reliever and how hard they pitch. Someone who throws at 70%, per the article, can throw more pitches.

www.mlb.com

Some teams rethinking bullpen sessions

If you're a baseball romantic, the bullpens between the Spring Training back fields are a thing of beauty. Six perfectly sloped red-dirt mounds and six perfectly clean white home plates separated by a swath of perfectly glittering green grass. When the bullpens are humming, six pitchers...
www.mlb.com www.mlb.com
 
JMick said:
109 pitches on Friday. Over 50 pitches today. It's inexcusable. The AD needs to step in and protect the athletes.
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Respectfully, I disagree.
 
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