Men Penders needs to be suspended

[primus74]

Probably should have pulled him after he got 4 outs. Looked great in that full inning. He really struggled when he came back out for the second full inning. Probably would look better with like 16 pitches versus 50 pitches.

 

[CL82]

How Hard Are College Pitchers Worked?

Many NCAA programs overuse their pitchers. They shouldn’t.

tht.fangraphs.com

Ah, one of my favorite things on The Boneyard when someone gets called on a point and then posts an article which doesn’t actually support his point, without commentary. I often wonder whether it’s done in the hopes that no one will actually read it, or whether the poster has some level of functional illiteracy and does not know that it doesn’t support their point. Either one wouldn’t be a particularly good look.

In any event, please advise where in the article it suggests that anything Penders did is “morally wrong.“ You won’t find it, which I know because I actually read the article, but it will be entertaining to see you try.

 

[CL82]

On topic conversation w/ Penders on “the decision”:




Assisted access <<

LOL, at the “assisted access” label. It makes me feel like I’m a senior citizen trying to make phone calls on my TV remote.

 

[huskymedic]

I’m too dumb to get around paywall. Can someone post? Thx

Sounds like you need the “assisted access” link from the article above.

 

[Husky25]

I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread. People really can't possibly fathom that their favorite school could make a wrong decision. Lots of tough guys in this thread who know nothing about baseball/injuries

Respectfully, I disagree.

 

[UDann]

One sad thing is that many MLB pitchers have had TJS prior to making it to the bigs (age 18 - 20) and quite a few have had a second surgery.

I've actually heard minor leaguers who have had it that said "it's better to get it behind you at a young age".

I blame a couple pitches (split finger fastball, cut fastball) for 90% of the UCL injuries and love of velocity, without understanding proper mechanics (using the arm as a whip, ending with a violent wrist snap as means to add a small amount of velocity) for the remaining 10%.

The obsession with velocity seems more important at the college level. I can tell you from a recruiting standpoint that’s the first thing they ask for which makes the kids obsessed with it. All the scouting services have sophisticated radar equipment for velocity and spin rate. I can see from watching these college games many of the pitchers hangout in the mid to high 80’s generally speaking but not all. Some a bit lower and others in low 90’s. The key is can you get it if you need it.

It’s easier to get hitters out at collegiate level with the higher speed but all the best hitters can hit a fastball even in mid 90’s so better learn how to pitch vs being just a thrower if you want a career.

We know high school players who have gotten TJ already. A lot of it mechanics and the tightness and snapping of the ball. Some guys are fluid others not so much. I agree on the pitches you mention.

Overall it’s an issue at the high school level. College there are more talented arms and over using someone is not a problem until playoff time. I know most players are all in unless they feel pain. In the Pros pitchers are a commodity and are babied

My 16 year old threw more pitches in April and May than any major leaguer. Where is the logic in that? …and There were many more who threw more than he did in his league.

 

[businesslawyer]

One sad thing is that many MLB pitchers have had TJS prior to making it to the bigs (age 18 - 20) and quite a few have had a second surgery.

I've actually heard minor leaguers who have had it that said "it's better to get it behind you at a young age".

I blame a couple pitches (split finger fastball, cut fastball) for 90% of the UCL injuries and love of velocity, without understanding proper mechanics (using the arm as a whip, ending with a violent wrist snap as means to add a small amount of velocity) for the remaining 10%.

Yes. The problem with talking about what Mickey Lolich and others did in the 60s is that the game was very different. You weren't trying to get an extra few mph on every pitch, and you weren't trying to hit a corner with every pitch, and there weren't as many fast pitches with movement. This is also why games were faster and pitchers didn't throw as many pitches per inning. For most pitchers, you threw like Enzo does today. You weren't trying to prevent contact. Just keep the ball low in the zone or high out of the zone.

I'm rambling, but the point is pitching is very different today.

 

[JMick]

Ah, one of my favorite things on The Boneyard when someone gets called on a point and then posts an article which doesn’t actually support his point, without commentary. I often wonder whether it’s done in the hopes that no one will actually read it, or whether the poster has some level of functional illiteracy and does not know that it doesn’t support their point. Either one wouldn’t be a particularly good look.

In any event, please advise where in the article it suggests that anything Penders did is “morally wrong.“ You won’t find it, which I know because I actually read the article, but it will be entertaining to see you try.

mhmm if I'm so incredibly wrong why does Pitch Smart guidelines say he shouldn't have thrown? Actual experts come up with these guidelines, not nimrods on a messageboard who think rubbing dirt on your arm fixes torn ligaments and broken bones.

 

[CL82]

mhmm if I'm so incredibly wrong why does Pitch Smart guidelines say he shouldn't have thrown? Actual experts come up with these guidelines, not nimrods on a messageboard who think rubbing dirt on your arm fixes torn ligaments and broken bones.

Yeah, so another thing I enjoy on The Boneyard is the “desperation strawman argument“. You know the one where a poster knows that he’s flailing in his argument and so he makes up some wild allegation that no one says that he can argue against.

So, on your to do list is first, to show where that article says Pender‘s actions were “morally reprehensible”, or would lead any rational person to come to that conclusion, and second, to “the post of whoever you a ledge believes that “rubbing dirt on your arm fix is torn ligaments.”

I’ll wait.

 

[Bomber36]

It seems that the amount of pitches he threw were inside the guidelines if I’m reading this correctly.

 

[UConnRock]

it was never implied that Peterson pitching on Monday was not outside the “guidelines”. There is a difference between being outside the guidelines and being a “morally reprehensible” offense worthy of being “suspended”. I am not going to waste my time and see how many other pitchers were used outside the “guidelines” this weekend. Maryland had at least 2 if not more.

 

[JMick]

It seems that the amount of pitches he threw were inside the guidelines if I’m reading this correctly.

View attachment 76795

 

[Bomber36]

View attachment 76797

Ok…guess I did read it wrong.

 

[HuskyNan]

Yeah, so another thing I enjoy on The Boneyard is the “desperation strawman argument“. You know the one where a poster knows that he’s flailing in his argument and so he makes up some wild allegation that no one says that he can argue against.

So, on your to do list is first, to show where that article says Pender‘s actions were “morally reprehensible”, or would lead any rational person to come to that conclusion, and second, to “the post of whoever you a ledge believes that “rubbing dirt on your arm fix is torn ligaments.”

I’ll wait.

I like how calling people names and insulting them makes you righterer.

 

[willie99]

I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread. People really can't possibly fathom that their favorite school could make a wrong decision. Lots of tough guys in this thread who know nothing about baseball/injuries

Boohoo

Just leave a few more negatives, that oughta make you feel or better

 

[willie99]

Tell it to Nolan Ryan, Schilling, Gibson, Fergie Jenkins, the Niekros and hundreds of others who ignored the pitch count game and listened to their own arms.
I have the OP on ignore but was told what he said to start this off. Entitled to his opinion no matter how ridiculous it sounds/appears. If a college athlete feels he can go out there and pitch then you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. If Coach P put a gun to his head and forced him then yeah its not right but knowing JP, I am sure he asked the kid if he could go or the kid told JP he was a go.
OP can take his bat and go home now because he isn't even in the game on this, no matter how much ball he has said to have played,
Congrats Coach P and the entire UConn baseball family on an outstanding accomplishment - more to come!!!

Bert Blyleven used to throw 140 pitches per game in a 4 man rotation, three days rest

Like Ryan, he too laughs at the pitch counts

 

[UConnJim]

View attachment 76797

I think you need to understand that pitch counts are simplistic guidelines that are easily tracked by coaches, parents, etc. As Dr. Tom House who is a big supporter of pitch counts, says “There are 3 things that contribute to keeping a pitcher’s arm healthy: Workload, bio mechanical efficiency, and functional strength…. Sure, we can create functional strength in an arm to handle more pitches and increase the energy in, energy out equation, but not everyone has access to that kind of training,….“. Thus, pitch counts.

BTW, these are the CT high school baseball rules which require less rest than Pitch Smart:

1. CIAC Pitching Limitation Rule – This Rule applies to a pitcher regardless of the level at which he is pitching (includes Freshman JV and Varsity and regular season, league and state championship playoffs) and is based on the number of legal pitches thrown in a game/day. The pitch count is based on pitches thrown to the batters during their time at bat. Warm-up pitches allowed before each inning and those warm-ups allowed by the umpire in case of injury or game delay do not count. All NFHS substitution and pitching rules must be followed.
 If a pitcher throws 1-25 pitches in a day, no calendar day of rest is required before pitching again.
 If a pitcher throws 26-50 pitches in a day, one (1) calendar day of rest must be observed.
 If a pitcher throws 51-75 pitches in a day, two (2) calendar days of rest must be observed.
 If a pitcher throws 76-110 pitches in a day, three (3) calendar days of rest must be observed.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Yes. The problem with talking about what Mickey Lolich and others did in the 60s is that the game was very different. You weren't trying to get an extra few mph on every pitch, and you weren't trying to hit a corner with every pitch, and there weren't as many fast pitches with movement. This is also why games were faster and pitchers didn't throw as many pitches per inning. For most pitchers, you threw like Enzo does today. You weren't trying to prevent contact. Just keep the ball low in the zone or high out of the zone.

I'm rambling, but the point is pitching is very different today.

BL. how are things?

I will begin with the quote in the attached picture and state a couple of items where I fully believe those currently making decisions for MLB teams are completely off base.

1 - Nobody will ever be able to convince me that Dave Kingman is more valuable than Rod Carew.
2 - While there will never be any way to prove this right or wrong. I am fully convinced that Greg Maddux would be more dominant in today's game than he was in his era. The main reason being that he understood what was important.

One thing that few realize is that there were power pitchers in the 1960's, 1970's, into the 1980's and for the most part power pitchers (at least until the late 1970's) also pitched the largest workloads. I mentioned in an earlier post about the whip motion and wrist snap (I'll include these in the category if bad mechanics) that most pitchers today rely on to add an extra couple MPH to their fastball (they should read Maddux's quote instead). Back when you and I first started following baseball, pitchers like Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, all repeated a similar motion, relied heavily on their legs to generate power and (in part because when throwing a faster they weren't attempting to throw it as fast as they possibly could on every pitch) got stronger as the game went on. I don't know if there was a pitch count (or are any verifiable numbers on pitches) when Tom Seaver threw 19 strikeouts in 1970 but he had to have approached 200 that game, I will go to my grave believing that Nolan Ryan had the best fastball ever and I am confident that if he wanted to, he could have reared back and hit 103, 104 on a semi-regular basis. He was still hitting mid 90's, late in the game when at 44 he threw his seventh no hitter (and stuck out 14 batters) and I'll wager that he never overthrew in an attempt to add velocity in that game.

It is my belief that if pitchers work on strength and flexibility in their lower bodies, develop proper mechanics and realize that their best fastball is something slightly below the fastest they can possibly throw it but also something they can locate and a pitch the can repeat throughout the game they could pitch the innings that to use your example Mickey Lolich (who was a borderline power pitcher) threw in his day. Sadly, that will never happen.

 

[Woof 101]

Was not going to comment here but as this thread has reached 108 the number of double stitches on a baseball why not. First look last night and I thought it was sarcasm and did not bite obviously I was wrong. Not going to attack @JMick as he has a right to an opinion although I disagree. Any form of discipline aimed at Jim Penders would have job offers blowing up his phone. Well respected in the game as is his staff, we are very lucky to have them.

Inning totals aren't everything. It's how much stress is involved in those innings.

Not everyone understands this.

I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread.

No attack and I won't list them but there are help lines for folks with this problem. No reason anyone should be embarrassed by how I feel.
That is an emotion from one thinking they know more than everyone else without a better way to express or explain it.

The responses in this thread are hilarious. People are acting like I want Penders tarred and feathered in the town square.

Again no attack but that is basically what you are calling for in today's vernacular.

I blame a couple pitches (split finger fastball, cut fastball) for 90% of the UCL injuries and love of velocity, without understanding proper mechanics (using the arm as a whip, ending with a violent wrist snap as means to add a small amount of velocity) for the remaining 10%.

Badda Bing Badda Boom, thank you. Do some not realize every pitch thrown is charted? Obviously the pitch being thrown comes into the factor on how many should be thrown before calling it a day. Do some really think Penders is going to do harm to his best pitcher to get to the Super Regional and then not have him ???

 

[BeMo14]

Suspended!? Doug, kick him off the tour!

 

[JMick]

Again no attack but that is basically what you are calling for in today's vernacular.

nah not my problem some people have taken it that way. I was accused of slandering him. I was accused of calling for him to be fired. I apparently called him morally reprehensible which isn't the same thing as accusing someone of acting immorally. A whole lot more outrage has been thrown my way than towards the guy who overworked one of his athletes last night and has a history of doing it.

Fandoms be crazy sometimes. I'm fine with taking the heat for pointing out what I think is wrong and what the science says is wrong.

Someone needs to take a stand against this crap. It would be nice if it was us. I wish we had higher standards for protecting athletes if no one else will act. Shouldn't need rules to do the right thing.

 

[CL82]

I apparently called him morally reprehensible which isn't the same thing as accusing someone of acting immorally.

 

[JMick]

I forgot how pointless it is to discuss anything with you. Reprehensible implies a specific severity. If I thought it was morally reprehensible I would have called for him to be fired. Apparently people said I did that too even though I didn't

 

[CL82]

I forgot how pointless it is to discuss anything with you. Reprehensible implies a specific severity. If I thought it was morally reprehensible I would have called for him to be fired. Apparently people said I did that too even though I didn't

And yet, you use the phrase “morally questionable.” By doing so you have, definitionally, called his morals into question That’s a hell of a position to take. But you did take it and then you’ve spent pages flailing away unsuccessfully trying to defend it.

Once you discovered your position to be undefendable you moved on to calling people names, and trying to cast yourself the victim. It is an incredibly lame look. Plenty of people, myself included, I have tried to toss you a lifeline, but instead of taking them you continue to fly away and attempt to smear a much beloved Coach. That’s fine, you define yourself with every post.

In any event, let me give you a tip for the future. If you were to entitle this thread “Should Austin Peterson have pitched on four days rest?” you would’ve gotten a dramatically different response with people discussing the pros and cons of that issue. Instead, you entitled the thread “Coach Penders should be suspended“ and it got the response it deserved, namely universal condemnation. Maybe next time, you might want to take a moment or two to tune down the rhetoric a bit and then you won’t feel quite so persecuted?

 

[businesslawyer]

And yet, you use the phrase “morally questionable.” By doing so you have, definitionally, called his morals into question That’s a hell of a position to take. But you did take it and then you’ve spent pages flailing away unsuccessfully trying to defend it.

Once you discovered your position to be undefendable you moved on to calling people names, and trying to cast yourself the victim. It is an incredibly lame look. Plenty of people, myself included, I have tried to toss you a lifeline, but instead of taking them you continue to fly away and attempt to smear a much beloved Coach. That’s fine, you define yourself with every post.

In any event, let me give you a tip for the future. If you were to entitle this thread “Should Austin Peterson have pitched on four days rest?” you would’ve gotten a dramatically different response with people discussing the pros and cons of that issue. Instead, you entitled the thread “Coach Penders should be suspended“ and it got the response it deserved, namely universal condemnation. Maybe next time, you might want to take a moment or two to tune down the rhetoric a bit and then you won’t feel quite so persecuted?

Could we stop the "4 days rest" bit. It may be arguably literally true, but it's not how people use the term.

When a reliever pitches Friday night and then Saturday night, no one would say he had one day rest, even though it may have been 24 hours between his stints. One day rest would mean he had one calendar day off, and pitches again on Sunday. If you go back to the chart someone posted, it's damn clear that's how they are counting days. Peterson pitched Friday afternoon and Monday night. He had two days rest, even though he had more than 72 hours between starts.

I'm not arguing for or against your opinions, but if we fail to give language its commonly accepted uses then we can't even have an intelligent discussion.

 

[CL82]

Could we stop the "4 days rest" bit. It may be arguably literally true, but it's not how people use the term.

When a reliever pitches Friday night and then Saturday night, no one would say he had one day rest, even though it may have been 24 hours between his stints. One day rest would mean he had one calendar day off, and pitches again on Sunday. If you go back to the chart someone posted, it's damn clear that's how they are counting days. Peterson pitched Friday afternoon and Monday night. He had two days rest, even though he had more than 72 hours between starts.

I'm not arguing for or against your opinions, but if we fail to give language its commonly accepted uses then we can't even have an intelligent discussion.

I agree with your point, generally, biz but I feel as if four days rest is the normal usage for baseball for the period that lapsed. But it’s a quibble, I understand what you’re saying.

 

[businesslawyer]

I agree with your point, generally, biz but I feel as if four days rest is the normal usage for baseball for the period that lapsed. But it’s a quibble, I understand what you’re saying.

In a five man rotation, pitchers pitch every fifth day. 100% of people refer to that as four days rest. Not five days rest.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Could we stop the "4 days rest" bit. It may be arguably literally true, but it's not how people use the term.

When a reliever pitches Friday night and then Saturday night, no one would say he had one day rest, even though it may have been 24 hours between his stints. One day rest would mean he had one calendar day off, and pitches again on Sunday. If you go back to the chart someone posted, it's damn clear that's how they are counting days. Peterson pitched Friday afternoon and Monday night. He had two days rest, even though he had more than 72 hours between starts.

I'm not arguing for or against your opinions, but if we fail to give language its commonly accepted uses then we can't even have an intelligent discussion.

You don't do cruises, do you?

4-day, 3 night cruise. Leave Friday afternoon, back to where you start Monday morning.

 

[Chin Diesel]

In a five man rotation, pitchers pitch every fifth day. 100% of people refer to that as four days rest. Not five days rest.

On the third day, he rose from the dead. Dead Friday, arisen Sunday. It's biblical.

 

[JMick]

And yet, you use the phrase “morally questionable.” By doing so you have, definitionally, called his morals into question That’s a hell of a position to take. But you did take it and then you’ve spent pages flailing away unsuccessfully trying to defend it.

Once you discovered your position to be undefendable you moved on to calling people names, and trying to cast yourself the victim. It is an incredibly lame look. Plenty of people, myself included, I have tried to toss you a lifeline, but instead of taking them you continue to fly away and attempt to smear a much beloved Coach. That’s fine, you define yourself with every post.

In any event, let me give you a tip for the future. If you were to entitle this thread “Should Austin Peterson have pitched on four days rest?” you would’ve gotten a dramatically different response with people discussing the pros and cons of that issue. Instead, you entitled the thread “Coach Penders should be suspended“ and it got the response it deserved, namely universal condemnation. Maybe next time, you might want to take a moment or two to tune down the rhetoric a bit and then you won’t feel quite so persecuted?

Imagine unironically equating the words questionable and reprehensible. What Penders did is wrong. The only defense is that other people do it too. That has never been a valid excuse in the history of humanity. If that was the standard, the world would have never progressed to the point we're at now.

But it's all sunshine and rainbows because we won a game. Woohoo. Winning at any cost is great.