Men Penders needs to be suspended

[FfldCntyFan]

There are a quite a few things that need to be said here. I would like to offer my opinion (from following baseball from the days when a pitcher who didn’t complete most of his starts was viewed as unreliable; all while working out of a four-man rotation).

Yes, as was pointed out, the delivery (and stress it places on the arm) is far more of a contributing factor than the number of pitches. Also, if trained properly (not sure what the regimen is for college pitchers today) there is no reason that a pitcher who started (and threw more than 100 pitches) one day could not throw another 25-30 in an actual game three calendar days later.

My biggest concern is that every team that played yesterday had the same issues, most at far higher levels than us. The format for a regular season allows for a three man (weekend) rotation and spot mid-week starts for other members of the pitching staff. It does not see feasible for a team to have five starters (which is what would be needed at worst case, four at best case) with sufficient innings under their belt to be trusted in games where the season would be in the balance yet, unless a team sweeps a regional (and CWS bracket two rounds later), they will be piecing together the arms that will be entrusted with keeping their seasons alive. This is insane.

I will continue later (as a lot of this began with a discussion last night that I initiated).

 

[The Viking]

Is it possible that we should let a 22 year old adult who knows full well where his future ambitions lie make the decision on this?

Some of are you are acting like Penders is some LL coach forcing a naive innocent tiny 12 year old to throw 80% curveballs.

Peterson is a very large pitcher who likely knows his body more than us and knows what HE wants to do with his body when putting his own future at risk compared to achieving his ultimate college dreams and whether it’s worth it.

Now if it comes out that penders and staff pushed him out there and he didn’t want to do it, then I take it back. But what are the odds that’s the case?

Reminder he is a 22 year old adult (almost 23). Likely not a victim.

 

[storrsroars]

yeah that's why they all need tommy john surgery now.

MLB rosters carry 13-14 pitchers on the 26 man at any given time. That's about 420 pitchers, not including those coming up from minors to replace guys being sent down.

In 2021, 32 MLB pitchers had TJ.

That's about 7.5%.

Which means 92.5% didn't.

"All" indeed.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

One sad thing is that many MLB pitchers have had TJS prior to making it to the bigs (age 18 - 20) and quite a few have had a second surgery.

I've actually heard minor leaguers who have had it that said "it's better to get it behind you at a young age".

I blame a couple pitches (split finger fastball, cut fastball) for 90% of the UCL injuries and love of velocity, without understanding proper mechanics (using the arm as a whip, ending with a violent wrist snap as means to add a small amount of velocity) for the remaining 10%.

 

[HuskyNan]

There are a quite a few things that need to be said here. I would like to offer my opinion (from following baseball from the days when a pitcher who didn’t complete most of his starts was viewed as unreliable; all while working out of a four-man rotation).

Yes, as was pointed out, the delivery (and stress it places on the arm) is far more of a contributing factor than the number of pitches. Also, if trained properly (not sure what the regimen is for college pitchers today) there is no reason that a pitcher who started (and threw more than 100 pitches) one day could not throw another 25-30 in an actual game three calendar days later.

My biggest concern is that every team that played yesterday had the same issues, most at far higher levels than us. The format for a regular season allows for a three man (weekend) rotation and spot mid-week starts for other members of the pitching staff. It does not see feasible for a team to have five starters (which is what would be needed at worst case, four at best case) with sufficient innings under their belt to be trusted in games where the season would be in the balance yet, unless a team sweeps a regional (and CWS bracket two rounds later), they will be piecing together the arms that will be entrusted with keeping their seasons alive. This is insane.

I will continue later (as a lot of this began with a discussion last night that I initiated).

Peterson usually gets 6-8 days between games. The short 3 days was an anomoly.

Peterson’s games this year:

 

[Dove]

109 pitches on Friday. Over 50 pitches today. It's inexcusable. The AD needs to step in and protect the athletes.

Now THAT is a hot take.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Peterson usually gets 6-8 days between games. The short 3 days was an anomoly.

Peterson’s games this year:

View attachment 76789

Thanks Nan.

What that does not show is the throw days (between starts regimen).

If the number pitches thrown on 6/6 was about half of what he did throw, I would have had zero concerns. One thing that I was puzzled with was why he didn't have anyone ready. From the second batter in the seventh, it was clear that he was laboring (and this is when injuries occur). I can see looking for a bonus the way he finished the prior inning but Penders should have started his last inning ready to pull him at a moment's notice.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Peterson usually gets 6-8 days between games. The short 3 days was an anomoly.

Peterson’s games this year:

View attachment 76789

Nan, couldn't respond to the DM (if you look in the tech questions forum you'll see I've had this issue for months).

Starting pitchers normally throw a couple of days after a start in a bullpen session to maintain strength and endurance, keep their arms loose. There have been instances (at one time it was a regular occurrence in MLB) where they would have him pitch in an actual game instead of a bullpen session.

 

[The Viking]

So in that Borges article, Peterson told Penders he wanted to pitch SUNDAY. Penders said no and he would see on Monday. Then goes into the conversation had between the two on Monday.

Again bottom line is that you have an older pitcher with a big frame who knows what’s at stake with his team and his health and his future and he wants to throw to get UConn into the Super.

I have no problem with the decision Penders made. No doubt the coach was hoping our outfield could catch the ball so it wouldn’t come to that but in the end Peterson and UConn got what they wanted.

I think as of now you target Peterson for the Monday game (game 3) to give him extra rest and hope you take game 1 so you can keep him in that spot if needed. If we lose game 1 you have to go to him on Sunday on 5 days rest

 

[huskymedic]

On topic conversation w/ Penders on “the decision”:




Assisted access <<

 

[superjohn]

JMick & SuperJohn are the Drama-/Hysteria Twins of the 'Yard.

JMick makes a really stupid post and quadruples down on it and you drag me in the thread. I've got a 5 bedroom penthouse in your head.

 

[HuskyNan]

Nan, couldn't respond to the DM (if you look in the tech questions forum you'll see I've had this issue for months).

Starting pitchers normally throw a couple of days after a start in a bullpen session to maintain strength and endurance, keep their arms loose. There have been instances (at one time it was a regular occurrence in MLB) where they would have him pitch in an actual game instead of a bullpen session.

If he pitched in a game, it’s listed in the schedule, above.

Even the CIAC high school rules allows 25 pitches a day with no rest. Here’s an article on MLB and the pitch count. It’s interesting that they assess the pitcher based on his primary role, i.e. starter, reliever and how hard they pitch. Someone who throws at 70%, per the article, can throw more pitches.

Some teams rethinking bullpen sessions

If you're a baseball romantic, the bullpens between the Spring Training back fields are a thing of beauty. Six perfectly sloped red-dirt mounds and six perfectly clean white home plates separated by a swath of perfectly glittering green grass. When the bullpens are humming, six pitchers...

www.mlb.com

 

[dbmill]

On topic conversation w/ Penders on “the decision”:




Assisted access <<

A very good read, no question about it.

 

[Husky25]

109 pitches on Friday. Over 50 pitches today. It's inexcusable. The AD needs to step in and protect the athletes.

Respectfully, I disagree.

 

[nadav]

A very good read, no question about it.

I’m too dumb to get around paywall. Can someone post? Thx

 

[primus74]

Probably should have pulled him after he got 4 outs. Looked great in that full inning. He really struggled when he came back out for the second full inning. Probably would look better with like 16 pitches versus 50 pitches.

 

[CL82]

How Hard Are College Pitchers Worked?

Many NCAA programs overuse their pitchers. They shouldn’t.

tht.fangraphs.com

Ah, one of my favorite things on The Boneyard when someone gets called on a point and then posts an article which doesn’t actually support his point, without commentary. I often wonder whether it’s done in the hopes that no one will actually read it, or whether the poster has some level of functional illiteracy and does not know that it doesn’t support their point. Either one wouldn’t be a particularly good look.

In any event, please advise where in the article it suggests that anything Penders did is “morally wrong.“ You won’t find it, which I know because I actually read the article, but it will be entertaining to see you try.

 

[CL82]

On topic conversation w/ Penders on “the decision”:




Assisted access <<

LOL, at the “assisted access” label. It makes me feel like I’m a senior citizen trying to make phone calls on my TV remote.

 

[huskymedic]

I’m too dumb to get around paywall. Can someone post? Thx

Sounds like you need the “assisted access” link from the article above.

 

[Husky25]

I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread. People really can't possibly fathom that their favorite school could make a wrong decision. Lots of tough guys in this thread who know nothing about baseball/injuries

Respectfully, I disagree.

 

[UDann]

One sad thing is that many MLB pitchers have had TJS prior to making it to the bigs (age 18 - 20) and quite a few have had a second surgery.

I've actually heard minor leaguers who have had it that said "it's better to get it behind you at a young age".

I blame a couple pitches (split finger fastball, cut fastball) for 90% of the UCL injuries and love of velocity, without understanding proper mechanics (using the arm as a whip, ending with a violent wrist snap as means to add a small amount of velocity) for the remaining 10%.

The obsession with velocity seems more important at the college level. I can tell you from a recruiting standpoint that’s the first thing they ask for which makes the kids obsessed with it. All the scouting services have sophisticated radar equipment for velocity and spin rate. I can see from watching these college games many of the pitchers hangout in the mid to high 80’s generally speaking but not all. Some a bit lower and others in low 90’s. The key is can you get it if you need it.

It’s easier to get hitters out at collegiate level with the higher speed but all the best hitters can hit a fastball even in mid 90’s so better learn how to pitch vs being just a thrower if you want a career.

We know high school players who have gotten TJ already. A lot of it mechanics and the tightness and snapping of the ball. Some guys are fluid others not so much. I agree on the pitches you mention.

Overall it’s an issue at the high school level. College there are more talented arms and over using someone is not a problem until playoff time. I know most players are all in unless they feel pain. In the Pros pitchers are a commodity and are babied

My 16 year old threw more pitches in April and May than any major leaguer. Where is the logic in that? …and There were many more who threw more than he did in his league.

 

[businesslawyer]

One sad thing is that many MLB pitchers have had TJS prior to making it to the bigs (age 18 - 20) and quite a few have had a second surgery.

I've actually heard minor leaguers who have had it that said "it's better to get it behind you at a young age".

I blame a couple pitches (split finger fastball, cut fastball) for 90% of the UCL injuries and love of velocity, without understanding proper mechanics (using the arm as a whip, ending with a violent wrist snap as means to add a small amount of velocity) for the remaining 10%.

Yes. The problem with talking about what Mickey Lolich and others did in the 60s is that the game was very different. You weren't trying to get an extra few mph on every pitch, and you weren't trying to hit a corner with every pitch, and there weren't as many fast pitches with movement. This is also why games were faster and pitchers didn't throw as many pitches per inning. For most pitchers, you threw like Enzo does today. You weren't trying to prevent contact. Just keep the ball low in the zone or high out of the zone.

I'm rambling, but the point is pitching is very different today.

 

[JMick]

Ah, one of my favorite things on The Boneyard when someone gets called on a point and then posts an article which doesn’t actually support his point, without commentary. I often wonder whether it’s done in the hopes that no one will actually read it, or whether the poster has some level of functional illiteracy and does not know that it doesn’t support their point. Either one wouldn’t be a particularly good look.

In any event, please advise where in the article it suggests that anything Penders did is “morally wrong.“ You won’t find it, which I know because I actually read the article, but it will be entertaining to see you try.

mhmm if I'm so incredibly wrong why does Pitch Smart guidelines say he shouldn't have thrown? Actual experts come up with these guidelines, not nimrods on a messageboard who think rubbing dirt on your arm fixes torn ligaments and broken bones.

 

[CL82]

mhmm if I'm so incredibly wrong why does Pitch Smart guidelines say he shouldn't have thrown? Actual experts come up with these guidelines, not nimrods on a messageboard who think rubbing dirt on your arm fixes torn ligaments and broken bones.

Yeah, so another thing I enjoy on The Boneyard is the “desperation strawman argument“. You know the one where a poster knows that he’s flailing in his argument and so he makes up some wild allegation that no one says that he can argue against.

So, on your to do list is first, to show where that article says Pender‘s actions were “morally reprehensible”, or would lead any rational person to come to that conclusion, and second, to “the post of whoever you a ledge believes that “rubbing dirt on your arm fix is torn ligaments.”

I’ll wait.

 

[Bomber36]

It seems that the amount of pitches he threw were inside the guidelines if I’m reading this correctly.