OT: Pats v. Chiefs

[upstater]

He sure is the most accomplished

But the offense doesn’t just get the ball back after scoring when executing a comeback. And Brady obviously doesn’t do a thing on the defense; had little (other than his own mystique indirectly helping the defense by scaring the opposition in to risky/rash decisions) effect on the top 10 defenses he’s had in something like 14 of his 18 years; or the defense that up to this year has allowed an AVERAGE of three points in the fourth quarter* in the playoffs. That is 95% BB

Then, of course, he’s been feasting on mostly byes and home games thanks to his awful division. Part of that is pats success, I will grant.

The most accomplished, and probably the best mind for the game and competitive spirit, but as far as the actual mechanics and athletic requirements for being a successful quarterback, he’s not even top 5.

*it may be the whole second half, I forget the specifics of that stat

How can you be so wrong in one post?

The Patriots D has been totally deficient in this decade. It's the main reason why they haven't won more. The offense has been at the very top. Not the D. And even in the early years when the offense was not what it became in 2010, Brady was great in the Super Bowls when the defense stumbled (see Carolina Super Bowl).

As for the AFCE, the Patriots record against it in this era (i.e. since 2000) has been 74%. guess what their record is against the rest of the NFL? 74%. Guess what their playoff record is? 74%.

Mechanics of being a QB? Whose mechanics are better? Please. SportsScience did a show a few years ago measuring the arm strength of QBs, and Brady threw the hardest ball. Most zip out of any QB. That doesn't mean he has the strongest arm, it just means he puts more mustard on it than anyone, but when he needs to, the guy shows off his big arm. Remember the last play of the first Giants Super Bowl? How many QBs can throw a rocket like that? Not many.

But this idea about athleticism that emphasizes things like running, at the QB position, is questionable at best. Babe Ruth couldn't do backflips. So what? He was up there to swat. A QB who has extraordinary sense in the pocket, who is a master of pre-snap and post-snap reads, who gets rid of the ball faster than anyone, who is deadly accurate, these are all arguably athletic attributes. Great athletes need skills, and throwing is an athletic skill, great footwork is an athletic skill, a quick release is an athletic skill, etc. The only part of his game that is not athletic is her coolness under pressure, his pre-snap and post-snap reads. That's it.

 

[intlzncster]

Note the last line.

The myth: The Patriots have a bend-but-don't-break defense.​

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I have a whole list of Patriots myths I want to evaluate in a column one day, but one classic trope surrounding the Belichick-era Patriots is that they bend without breaking, giving up easy yards before shutting down opposing teams in the red zone. When you look at the yardage and point totals at the end of the season, the Patriots invariably rank way worse in yards than they do in points. The same thing is true this season, as the Patriots rank 21st in yards allowed per game and seventh in scoring defense.​

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It's a good story, but it isn't borne out by reality. I've looked at red zone performance several times in the past (most recently in 2016) and found that it tends to be remarkably inconsistent from year to year. History suggests that teams tend to play about as well in the red zone as they do in the other 80 yards of the field.​

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That's true for the Patriots too, and we can use ESPN's expected points metric to prove it. If the Patriots were a bend-but-don't-break defense, they would rank relatively low in expected points per snap on plays outside of the 20, but then improve dramatically in the same category once teams make it to the New England 20-yard line. Instead, here's where the Patriots rank on defense in each of those two categories going back through 2006, which is how far ESPN's expected points model stretches:​

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The Patriots have actually been slightly worse inside the red zone than we might have expected, given their work over the rest of the field. Last year might coincidentally have been one of the few times they could have been considered a bend-but-don't-break defense, but the trend hasn't stuck around this season. New England is allowing teams to score touchdowns on 58.7 percent of their red zone trips, which ranks 16th in the league.​

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When you think about it, the bend-but-don't-break idea doesn't make much sense. Why would a team want to just let a team move the ball into field goal range? If it were something the Patriots were doing, wouldn't Bill Belichick want them to stop teams earlier in possessions and get the ball back in Brady's hands? Belichick certainly preaches the value of stopping opposing teams in the red zone, but so does every other defensive coach in football.​

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Ryan Clark says that the difference for the Chargers is going to be Joey Bosa and Melvin Ingram's ability to close the pocket on Tom Brady.​

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In reality, the discrepancy between yards and points has more to do with the Patriots' offense than its defense. Brady & Co. have been moving the ball downfield and scoring consistently throughout the past 13 years (with the Matt Cassel year from 2008 as a notable exception), which has impacted the defense's numbers.​

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Since 2006, the Patriots' defense has inherited an average starting field position with 73.7 yards to go, meaning that opposing offenses have had to travel further for their touchdowns than any other team in the league. Because the offense holds onto the ball, it has faced an average of only 11.4 drives per game, the seventh fewest over the same time frame. The Patriots also have defended 2,728 plays over that time frame with a lead of 15 points or more, 832 more than any other team in football. With a big lead, teams can play prevent and allow teams to rack up yardage as long as they burn clock. When you say that the Patriots have a bend-but-don't-break defense, what you really mean is that they have a great offense.​

 

[superjohn]

Extolling the virtues of the best to ever do it? Imagine that. I do the same thing with Michael Jordan. Just the way it is.

You're basically reverting to insults because you can't admit that it's the players who play the game. They are the ones who execute the plays and determine the result on the field. And Tom does it over and over and over and over again.

Not for nothing, but BB had pedestrian results before Tom Brady. And yes, I also think BB's the best to do it in the modern era.

I'm able to admit it's a symbiotic relationship. Both needed each other to reach the absolute pinnacle of the mountain. Kudos to them for doing so.

You insulted me, don't act like you're hurt that I responded in kind to your beating it over Brady.

Belichick was arguably the best defensive coordinator ever before the Patriots but I'm sure you'll point to the Browns where no human being has been able to win.

 

[Hamms30]

Actually, it is. Ever hear of the New York Giants and the Brooklyn Dodgers? And the New York Mets??

Tom Brady is beginning to look like Antonio Brown on Instagram. Not good.

To my knowledge, "pink hatting" started in Boston with Ask a Pink Hat on the radio where they used to find girls walking around with pink red sox hats on and ask them basic questions and then call them out for not even watching baseball. How is that a Yankee thing?

 

[Rocktheworld]

His numbers in the post season dwarf most everybody else's. Leaving wins out of it.

Brady’s got 16 career playoff game with a 100+ passer rating... more than Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers and Philip Rivers combined.



Great QBs make their defenses better. Bill Barnwell had a fantastic piece of analysis on this a month or two ago, but I can't find it at the moment. I will continue to look for it.

People complained about Brady 'dinking and dunking' most of the game, but that served the purpose of keeping Mahomes off the field, and the defense rested. The fact is, most QBs can't do this, or they would. Because it's unstoppable.

The defense remains fresher for the critical end of game moments when you need to make a play. Gives you a mental edge as well. When an offense always gives you a chance like that, as a defender, you feel like you can always make the plays necessary to win the game.



That raw ability you are talking about is only a part of being a QB. You're basically saying that Brady isn't great at this one piece, so all the other important pieces of the position don't matter. When in fact, the other pieces don't matter as much. Look at Jamarcus Russell. Dude had more of it than anyone I've seen. But he was junk because he didn't have anything else.

The two most important components of being a great QB, according to BB, is 1. accuracy and 2. intelligence. Brady has those in spades. Brady's pocket presence, ability to diagnose a defense presnap, recognize the mismatch, make the right decisions pre and post snap are unparalleled. Along with that pinpoint accuracy, those are the most important QB characteristics. All the athletic ability in the world doesn't matter if you have that. And of course, as you alluded to, he's got every intangible in the book.

In terms of raw physical ability, sure, other guys are better. Although I don't know what you are talking about in regards to 'mechanics', as Brady is known to have some of the best and most consistent throwing mechanics of all time; they
are damn near perfect. Listen to other QBs/analysts talk about them (can't be bothered to google right now); I see it all the time.

He throws a hard, heavy ball (due to extremely tight fast spiral) hasn't dipped much with age. Underrated arm strength.

If you add up all the components (while he's lesser on some), he's ahead of everyone else. It's like a Madden score.

There's not a single QB in history who I'd rather have under center with the game on the line. I think most NFL analysts and players would agree but that's jmo.

For me, it comes down to:

You are building a team from scratch and, in isolation not taking to account offensive/defensive/coaching support, you have to pick a QB to win you one game. If you’re talking individual greatness, you have to eliminate all the other possible confounding factors. And in that scenario I’m taking Montana, Elway, Moon, Rodgers, or Marino over Brady. I guess “mechanics” was a poorly ambiguous term to use. I was trying to say “thrower of the football” without using such a phrase.

But everyone forms their own question and criteria for each player and GOAT discussion

 

[Stainmaster]

To my knowledge, "pink hatting" started in Boston with Ask a Pink Hat on the radio where they used to find girls walking around with pink red sox hats on and ask them basic questions and then call them out for not even watching baseball. How is that a Yankee thing?

Pink hatting is a form of bandwagoning, which Yankees fans all over have been doing for decades upon decades.

 

[tzznandrew]

Pink hatting is a form of bandwagoning, which Yankees fans all over have been doing for decades upon decades.

Growing up in the 90s, it was very common to meet: Bulls-Yankees-Cowboys fans.

 

[Devland]

To my knowledge, "pink hatting" started in Boston with Ask a Pink Hat on the radio where they used to find girls walking around with pink red sox hats on and ask them basic questions and then call them out for not even watching baseball. How is that a Yankee thing?

Call them out for not watching baseball? Why? I would consider that a compliment. Baseball is a lame sport.

 

[intlzncster]

The Patriots D has been totally deficient in this decade. It's the main reason why they haven't won more. The offense has been at the very top. Not the D. And even in the early years when the offense was not what it became in 2010, Brady was great in the Super Bowls when the defense stumbled (see Carolina Super Bowl).

Dude, don't leave that 2007 team out of the mix there.

 

[Adios]

To my knowledge, "pink hatting" started in Boston with Ask a Pink Hat on the radio where they used to find girls walking around with pink red sox hats on and ask them basic questions and then call them out for not even watching baseball. How is that a Yankee thing?

High as a kite, ignore me. My fault.

 

[intlzncster]

You insulted me, don't act like you're hurt that I responded in kind to your beating it over Brady.

Belichick was arguably the best defensive coordinator ever before the Patriots but I'm sure you'll point to the Browns where no human being has been able to win.

I'm not hurt. How did I insult you? I said you had blinders on in regards to the Pats. That's just an observation based on your posting history. OK, I take back the Nelson comment--I was just trying to be funny, not insulting. My bad.

Look, you're smart dude, and I like the vast majority of your posts. Sometimes maybe a little strident with them, but I'm on board.

I just think where Brady is concerned, you're Bird-Boxing it. JMO

 

[Stainmaster]

Growing up in the 90s, it was very common to meet: Bulls-Yankees-Cowboys fans.

I'm related to some of them.

 

[intlzncster]

For me, it comes down to:

You are building a team from scratch and, in isolation not taking to account offensive/defensive/coaching support, you have to pick a QB to win you one game. If you’re talking individual greatness, you have to eliminate all the other possible confounding factors. And in that scenario I’m taking Montana, Elway, Moon, Rodgers, or Marino over Brady. I guess “mechanics” was a poorly ambiguous term to use. I was trying to say “thrower of the football” without using such a phrase.

But everyone forms their own question and criteria for each player and GOAT discussion

Fair enough. Appreciate the explanation. I do think you'd be one of the few (non NY-centric) people in America with that take.

 

[upstater]

Patriots complaining about pick plays is like Dookies complaining about flopping.

The one constant in all these threads is what a loser upstater is.

It's clear that you know less about the game of football than anyone on this board. You should stick to sports you have even the slightest inkling about, because football has long escaped your grasp.

Here's the video of a guy going clearly out of his way to hit a DB. Learn from it and begin to understand how the game of football is played:

Mahomes delivers CLUTCH throw to Watkins on the move for 38 yards

 

[superjohn]

To my knowledge, "pink hatting" started in Boston with Ask a Pink Hat on the radio where they used to find girls walking around with pink red sox hats on and ask them basic questions and then call them out for not even watching baseball. How is that a Yankee thing?

And right on cue there is Stainmaster and other pink hat nationers to try and dispute something they coined their own. The funny thing is real Boston fans who have lived and died with their teams from the beginning can't stand these poseurs.

 

[superjohn]

It's clear that you know less about the game of football than anyone on this board. You should stick to sports you have even the slightest inkling about, because football has long escaped your grasp.

Here's the video of a guy going clearly out of his way to hit a DB. Learn from it and begin to understand how the game of football is played:

Mahomes delivers CLUTCH throw to Watkins on the move for 38 yards

 

[intlzncster]

To my knowledge, "pink hatting" started in Boston with Ask a Pink Hat on the radio where they used to find girls walking around with pink red sox hats on and ask them basic questions and then call them out for not even watching baseball. How is that a Yankee thing?

You're correct in terms of the moniker ("Pink Hat"), tho people were wearing them for other teams as well before that (it started as a breast cancer thing i think).

But the badwagon concept which it refers to is universal.

Look at all those rabid Silicone Valley Warriors fans now. Where were they 10 years ago?

 

[Adios]

Am not a Boston fan. But I did realize in my youth that Connecticut happens to be a part of New England.

 

[upstater]

Dude, don't leave that 2007 team out of the mix there.

It wasn't the same offense though.

Brady only played one year with Moss really.

The current offense started to develop in 2010. That's when they started really humming. 2007 was almost an anomaly with Brady throwing bombs constantly 40-50 yards downfield.

 

[tzznandrew]

And right on cue there is Stainmaster and other pink hat nationers to try and dispute something they coined their own. The funny thing is real Boston fans who have lived and died with their teams from the beginning can't stand these poseurs.

Pinkhatting absolutely started with Boston.

Bandwagoning did not.

(I'm not a Sox or Pats fan. UConn-Mets-Celtics)

 

[Stainmaster]

And right on cue there is Stainmaster and other pink hat nationers to try and dispute something they coined their own. The funny thing is real Boston fans who have lived and died with their teams from the beginning can't stand these poseurs.

How do Yankees fans feel about the mountains and mountains of poseurs alongside them? That's right, their heads are buried in the sand. Bandwagon Yankee fans dwarf "Pink Hat" people both in number and level of embarrassment. I get that it's psychologically crushing for them to see the Red Sox completely outclass them for a nearly 20-year period, but come on.

 

[tzznandrew]

How do Yankees fans feel about the mountains and mountains of poseurs alongside them? That's right, their heads are buried in the sand. Bandwagon Yankee fans dwarf "Pink Hat" people both in number and level of embarrassment.

I saw a Nationals-Yanks game this summer and the crowd was 50-50 among the fans. I was with my friend from St. Louis. He said it happens there too, even when the Cards are good. And at every other midwestern park he's gone too if the Yanks are in town.

There's a huge national fanbase that stems only from winning. Hence, bandwagoners.

 

[upstater]

You write this and then say I'm the one who looks ridiculous. Did you write this as you were stroking it to your Brady fathead above your bed?

I've always said Brady is awesome but Belichick is more responsible for the Patriots success.

Left, right, up, down whatever you say...Belichick is playing chess while everyone else is playng checkers. They won the game last night because of BB's gameplan. He took a team that should easily beat the Patriots and held them to something like 35 yards in the first half and kept the league's best pass rush from ever getting anywhere near the quarterback.

And yet, no one else has this gameplan. Why?

Why not copy the most successful system in the history of sports?

Because you don't have Brady. That's why.

But keep refusing to see the obvious.

 

[Devland]

A lot of people are calling for everything to be reviewable after the Saints-Rams game. The problem is that If you look close enough you could find some sort of penalty (holding, illegal contact...). Some coach is going to hold a challenge in his pocket for a 4th quarter drive where they fail to pick up a 3rd and short or a 4th down and throw the challenge flag for a borderline hold or contact at 5.1 yards just to keep the drive alive. This is why I think if something is done it has to be a booth official with the ability to buzz in.

 

[superjohn]

How do Yankees fans feel about the mountains and mountains of poseurs alongside them? That's right, their heads are buried in the sand. Bandwagon Yankee fans dwarf "Pink Hat" people both in number and level of embarrassment.

I've never liked bandwagon Yankees fans or bandwagon fans of any team, I've also never heard them called pink hats or nationers because they aren't terms for Yankee fans and other bandwagoners. It's a Boston thing, you not knowing this leads me to believe you're a pink hat "fan" and refer to your team as "nation."