OT: Pats v. Chiefs

[intlzncster]

Somehow @intlzncster, the most points ever scored in a conference championship game 4Q may have played a role

Perhaps.

 

[intlzncster]

The worst call was the Brady roughing call.

Come on. Arguing that the Brady call was worse than the Saints call is some pretty crazy spin zone. The Saints call has to be a top five botched call in the history of the game, given the situation. Has to be.

There's a reason nobodies talking much about it. Whereas the Saints call will be talked about for years to come.

Granted, the Saints non-call had larger implications for impact on the game. But in that play, the ref may have had a bad angle and with the speed of the game, may not have been able to make the judgment of contact related to when the ball arrived. To us, it was obvious; but he may not have felt comfortable making such a huge call without enough visual evidence in the moment, specifically because you can’t go back and change the call.

It wasn't even bang bang. The ref was 10ft from the guys with direct line of sight. It was so blatantly ahead of time, even the defender was shocked (he said as much after the game).

The ref said after that he thought the ball was tipped. That was the worst non call I've seen in a long, long time. In fact, most any other ref on the field could have made that one. They just deferred to the guy right next to the play, likely because they didn't want to have the weight on their shoulders.

When you have the refs calling Sean Peyton telling him they totally blew, and they just can't believe they did that, you know it was bad.

The Brady call was as flagrant a “miss”, was made by a ref with at least as bad an angle, and a false positive should always be considered worse than a false negative. Same logic is applied in the judicial system (a thousand guilty men free for a single innocent man convicted, or however it goes)

The problem was the ref who called it was behind him. When the defensive player skimmed the helmet with his hand, Brady's helmet moved (he wears it loose i think). So the guy behind saw the hand come down, the helmet move unnaturally, and threw the flag. Shouldn't have thrown it imo.

[Not for nothing, but iirc there was PI on Edelman (or Gronk can't remember which) on that play anyway that wasn't called.]

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

As a Patriots fan I'm spoiled. Not only do I get to enjoy yesterday's thrilling win, I get to go on the Boneyard and read the same delicious posts from the same handful of anti-Pats fans. And not only that, rather than simply enjoying the fact that his team is going to be playing in yet another Super Bowl, and relishing the fact that those same fans are going to have to endure another two weeks of this, Upstater tries to take on every single argument. It's great. Maybe as fun as the game itself.

 

[mauconnfan]

Everyone knows about bandwagoners.

Thank you very much. Try again.

Not like you guys the kings.

 

[Adios]

Not like you guys the kings.

I am a king? Didn't know that.

Look man, some of us were fans before Brady and never imagined what has come to be. We had season tix in 1991, worst season in Patriots history. So get off your high horse and stop being so upset at bandwagoners. You should feel bad for them that they need a pro team to feel better about life.

I used to get mocked at for being a Patriots fan. I am sure my past friends remember me.

 

[Stainmaster]

I am a king? Didn't know that.

Look man, some of us were fans before Brady and never imagined what has come to be. We had season tix in 1991, worst season in Patriots history. So get off your high horse and stop being so upset at bandwagoners. You should feel bad for them that they need a pro team to feel better about life.

I used to get mocked at for being a Patriots fan. I am sure my past friends remember me.

It sure feels great being lectured about bandwagoners by fans of the New York Yankees.

 

[superjohn]

It sure feels great being lectured about bandwagoners by fans of the New York Yankees.

Pink hat nation isn't a Yankees thing.

 

[Stainmaster]

Pink hat nation isn't a Yankees thing.

Bandwagoning didn't start with pink hats. It's a lesser version of the much larger and more obnoxious Yankees bandwagon.

Yankees fans just can't get over the fact that after nearly a century, the Red Sox are no longer pushovers. That's why they're constantly living in the past as they continue to fade into mediocrity in real life.

 

[Walker11]

 

[Devland]

The worst call was the Brady roughing call.

Granted, the Saints non-call had larger implications for impact on the game. But in that play, the ref may have had a bad angle and with the speed of the game, may not have been able to make the judgment of contact related to when the ball arrived. To us, it was obvious; but he may not have felt comfortable making such a huge call without enough visual evidence in the moment, specifically because you can’t go back and change the call.

The Brady call was as flagrant a “miss”, was made by a ref with at least as bad an angle, and a false positive should always be considered worse than a false negative. Same logic is applied in the judicial system (a thousand guilty men free for a single innocent man convicted, or however it goes)

When they first threw the roughing the passer flag, I really thought it was going to be on the defensive back for holding or PI against Edelman. I said afterward that they called the wrong penalty but they ended up getting the correct result.

 

[Doctor Hoop]

It always amazes me to see people give most of the credit to the OL for him being untouched, but it surely has more to do with his quick release. Last week, Ingram and Bosa were shutout, and Bosa was mic'd up talking about all his wins against LT Brown amounting to nothing. This week the top sack team in the NFL shutout. He goes against Aaron Donald in the Super Bowl. Is it his great OL? They deserve credit, so does their coach, but ... throughout the Patriots history, they've made do with castoffs, mid round draftees and mostly UDFAs. This team is no different. That starting 5 had a castoff from San Fran at LT, 3 mid round picks in Mason, Thuney and Cannon, and a UDFA in Andrews. Only Mason is a star OL out of all their guys. The fact he doesn't get sacked has a lot to do with his quick release, and his ability to move in the pocket, and his ability to read the defense pre-snap and post-snap. Most of the credit goes to Brady. He'd do the same with any other OL on any other team. That being said, when he's prevented from using the short passing system, teams can get pressure and hit him hard when he holds the ball longer looking downfield. The Eagles did it last year, and he responded well. The Giants did it well in the first SB and he responded not so well. In the second Giants SB, he was also hit but he had a very good game despite that. The flip side of this is Mahomes. The guy has all the ability in the world, but he held the ball way too long looking for a homerun and one of the most anemic DLs in the entire NFL sacked him multiple times.

OL play and DL play seems to be more of a matter of gameplan and system than anything else. Mahomes can transform his game and be even more dominant than he was this year if he isn't constantly looking for a homerun play.

The O-Line? Dante Scarnecchia. He gets the most out of the least, why they brought him back after he retired.

 

[intlzncster]

As a Patriots fan I'm spoiled. Not only do I get to enjoy yesterday's thrilling win, I get to go on the Boneyard and read the same delicious posts from the same handful of anti-Pats fans. And not only that, rather than simply enjoying the fact that his team is going to be playing in yet another Super Bowl, and relishing the fact that those same fans are going to have to endure another two weeks of this, Upstater tries to take on every single argument. It's great. Maybe as fun as the game itself.

This. The bitterness is palpable. And I get the hate. They just win so goshdarn much it must be infuriating for fans of other teams.

It's funny watch them twist their brains into a pretzel to try write off Brady, BB, the Pats, or the fans.

Brady 9 Superbowls in 17 seasons of starting. 53%. And you can't even admit he's the GOAT? At some point, the numbers are just smacking you so hard in the face you must be punch drunk.

 

[storrsroars]

and a false positive should always be considered worse than a false negative. Same logic is applied in the judicial system (a thousand guilty men free for a single innocent man convicted, or however it goes)

Doesn't work that way with HIV...

I don't care what "angle" the ref had, the receiver getting blown up on a catchable pass should have been an automatic flag. It was just the DB and the WR, no other traffic around. You'd have to have your back turned to miss that call.

 

[intlzncster]

The O-Line? Dante Scarnecchia. He gets the most out of the least, why they brought him back after he retired.

You're not wrong, but they have some pretty damn good players on Oline. Brown, Mason, and Cannon* are all very, very good players.

*credit to Scar for turning around his career by identifying and changing his technique to something where he could be very successful. Great piece of coaching there.

 

[intlzncster]

When they first threw the roughing the passer flag, I really thought it was going to be on the defensive back for holding or PI against Edelman. I said afterward that they called the wrong penalty but they ended up getting the correct result.

Same.

 

[intlzncster]

I somewhat disagree. I think they are equals. Put Belicheck on the Packers (with Rodgers) and I still don't see them having this level of success. They are hand in glove, on the same page and a unified force.

As for Brady he's a tactician, just like his Coach and commands games. He seems always to be in control. Much of that is experience combined with unparalleled success. They both better retire at the same time if they want to go out on a high note.

Superjohn has such a superjohn for Rodgers you aren't gonna win that one. This stat alone disqualifies Rodgers from the GOAT discussion:

The Green Bay Packers quarterback is 0-37 across when entering the fourth quarter trailing by more than a point against teams with a winning record.​

You just can't be in the conversation having that on your record.

I think Mahomes will be better than Rodgers anyway.

 

[intlzncster]

Are its not "all" majority would be correct. Maybe the one's who didn't have a hat or tee shirt until 2002 I don't know. Again everyone recognizes it but the Nation. That's hilarious.

Who doesn't recognize it? People love winners. It's just the way it is. Bandwagoners exist in every dynasty. Half the cowboys fans in the Country are a result of just that. Notre Dame? Same thing.

It's the reason you used to see all those Yankees hats when travelling overseas. Not as much now.

For the record, I still don't have a hat or tshirt.

 

[Devland]

They're fired up in LA.

 

[JB75]

Two great games yestrday. That non pass interference call in saints game was awful. Pats game was insane. How is Edelman always open across the middle ? Lol

 

[superjohn]

Bandwagoning didn't start with pink hats. It's a lesser version of the much larger and more obnoxious Yankees bandwagon.

Yankees fans just can't get over the fact that after nearly a century, the Red Sox are no longer pushovers. That's why they're constantly living in the past as they continue to fade into mediocrity in real life.

Wow. you're too wrapped up in your sports teams.

 

[superjohn]

Brady is the guy making pinpoint throw after pinpoint throw, miraculous comeback after miraculous comeback. Not BB. Brady's the author of the two greatest comeback in Superbowl history even.


It starts to make you look ridiculous after a while.

You write this and then say I'm the one who looks ridiculous. Did you write this as you were stroking it to your Brady fathead above your bed?

I've always said Brady is awesome but Belichick is more responsible for the Patriots success.

Left, right, up, down whatever you say...Belichick is playing chess while everyone else is playng checkers. They won the game last night because of BB's gameplan. He took a team that should easily beat the Patriots and held them to something like 35 yards in the first half and kept the league's best pass rush from ever getting anywhere near the quarterback.

 

[intlzncster]

He sure is the most accomplished

His numbers in the post season dwarf most everybody else's. Leaving wins out of it.

Brady’s got 16 career playoff game with a 100+ passer rating... more than Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers and Philip Rivers combined.

The most accomplished, and probably the best mind for the game and competitive spirit, but as far as the actual mechanics and athletic requirements for being a successful quarterback, he’s not even top 5.

That raw ability you are talking about is only a part of being a QB. You're basically saying that Brady isn't great at this one piece, so all the other important pieces of the position don't matter. When in fact, the other pieces don't matter as much. Look at Jamarcus Russell. Dude had more of it than anyone I've seen. But he was junk because he didn't have anything else. I mean, Montana is well behind guys like Rodgers, Mahomes, Marino etc in a lot of these things, but he's a better QB than all of them. There's more to it.

The two most important components of being a great QB, according to BB, is 1. accuracy and 2. intelligence. Brady has those in spades. Brady's pocket presence, ability to diagnose a defense presnap, recognize the mismatch, make the right decisions pre and post snap are unparalleled. Along with that pinpoint accuracy, those are the most important QB characteristics. All the athletic ability in the world doesn't matter if you have that. And of course, as you alluded to, he's got every intangible in the book.

In terms of raw physical ability, sure, other guys are better. Although I don't know what you are talking about in regards to 'mechanics', as Brady is known to have some of the best and most consistent throwing mechanics of all time; they
are damn near perfect. Listen to other QBs/analysts talk about them (can't be bothered to google right now); I see it all the time.

He throws a hard, heavy ball (due to extremely tight fast spiral) hasn't dipped much with age. Underrated arm strength.

If you add up all the components (while he's lesser on some), he's ahead of everyone else. It's like a Madden score.

There's not a single QB in history who I'd rather have under center with the game on the line. I think most NFL analysts and players would agree but that's jmo.

But the offense doesn’t just get the ball back after scoring when executing a comeback. And Brady obviously doesn’t do a thing on the defense; had little (other than his own mystique indirectly helping the defense by scaring the opposition in to risky/rash decisions) effect on the top 10 defenses he’s had in something like 14 of his 18 years; or the defense that up to this year has allowed an AVERAGE of three points in the fourth quarter* in the playoffs. That is 95% BB

Great QBs make their defenses better. Bill Barnwell had a fantastic piece of analysis on this a month or two ago, but I can't find it at the moment. I will continue to look for it. [EDIT: I found something similar, but I don't think it's the one I remember, I'll put in a separate post below for legibility reasons]

Most importantly, field position. The offense moves the ball enough to consistently have great field position for the defense to start in if they fail to score.

People complained about Brady 'dinking and dunking' most of the game, but that served the purpose of keeping Mahomes off the field, and the defense rested. The fact is, most QBs can't do this, or they would. Because it's unstoppable.

The defense remains fresher for the critical end of game moments when you need to make a play. Gives you a mental edge as well. When an offense always gives you a chance like that, as a defender, you feel like you can always make the plays necessary to win the game.

 

[intlzncster]

You write this and then say I'm the one who looks ridiculous. Did you write this as you were stroking it to your Brady fathead above your bed?

I've always said Brady is awesome but Belichick is more responsible for the Patriots success.

Left, right, up, down whatever you say...Belichick is playing chess while everyone else is playng checkers. They won the game last night because of BB's gameplan. He took a team that should easily beat the Patriots and held them to something like 35 yards in the first half and kept the league's best pass rush from ever getting anywhere near the quarterback.

Extolling the virtues of the best to ever do it? Imagine that. I do the same thing with Michael Jordan. Just the way it is.

You're basically reverting to insults because you can't admit that it's the players who play the game. They are the ones who execute the plays and determine the result on the field. And Tom does it over and over and over and over again.

Not for nothing, but BB had pedestrian results before Tom Brady. And yes, I also think BB's the best to do it in the modern era.

I'm able to admit it's a symbiotic relationship. Both needed each other to reach the absolute pinnacle of the mountain. Kudos to them for doing so.

 

[Adios]

Pink hat nation isn't a Yankees thing.

Actually, it is. Ever hear of the New York Giants and the Brooklyn Dodgers? And the New York Mets??

Tom Brady is beginning to look like Antonio Brown on Instagram. Not good.

 

[intlzncster]

Two great games yestrday. That non pass interference call in saints game was awful. Pats game was insane. How is Edelman always open across the middle ? Lol

The squirrel.