OT: World Series | Page 3 | The Boneyard

OT: World Series

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storrsroars said:
Yep. I think Torre even noted that doing so might be difficult, but that's the way the rule is written and thus, enforced properly.

Any beefs should not be directed at the umps, but the rule.
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How are you supposed to get out of the way when the runner takes a wildly unpredictable path to the plate?
 
storrsroars said:
Yep. I think Torre even noted that doing so might be difficult, but that's the way the rule is written and thus, enforced properly.

Any beefs should not be directed at the umps, but the rule.
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Still doesn't answer the question though.

When is the player deemed to no longer be trying to make a play on the ball? When the ball gets by? If so, what if the ball didn't get by? Then what? (i.e. what if the ball was lying nearby)?
 
upstater said:
This explanation doesn't help at all, since Middlebrooks was on the ground and hadn't even gotten up yet to get out of the way.

So, again, I ask, when does the play on the ball end? Torre emphasized the play on the ball. If you dive to make a play on the ball, are you supposed to dematerialize or... what?
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The play on the ball ends when Middlebrooks doesn't catch and control the throw. If Midlebrooks knocks the ball down the call would have been more difficult. If Middlebrooks dives and catches the ball there is no obstruction. It doesn't matter that Middlebrooks has nowhere else to go and the obstruction was unintentional. BTW, I'm not entirely convinced that the obstruction was unintentional: Middlebooks lifted both legs in the air in what was not an attempt to get to his feet.
I didn't like it but the call was the correct call. All of this is moot if Salty makes a decent throw.
 
Danzz said:
The play on the ball ends when Middlebrooks doesn't catch and control the throw. If Midlebrooks knocks the ball down the call would have been more difficult. If Middlebrooks dives and catches the ball there is no obstruction. It doesn't matter that Middlebrooks has nowhere else to go and the obstruction was unintentional. BTW, I'm not entirely convinced that the obstruction was unintentional: Middlebooks lifted both legs in the air in what was not an attempt to get to his feet.
I didn't like it but the call was the correct call. All of this is moot if Salty makes a decent throw.
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In my post to mauconnfan, I think I stated too that I thought the call was correct.

I'm just questioning the rule. And, I have the feeling that had it not been called, Joe Torre would have emphasized how Middlebrooks was trying to make a play on the ball, and hadn't moved. He would have emphasized that wording in the rule.
 
Danzz said:
The play on the ball ends when Middlebrooks doesn't catch and control the throw. If Midlebrooks knocks the ball down the call would have been more difficult. If Middlebrooks dives and catches the ball there is no obstruction. It doesn't matter that Middlebrooks has nowhere else to go and the obstruction was unintentional. BTW, I'm not entirely convinced that the obstruction was unintentional: Middlebooks lifted both legs in the air in what was not an attempt to get to his feet.
I didn't like it but the call was the correct call. All of this is moot if Salty makes a decent throw.
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That'd be all good if Craig tripped over his legs, but it was his back/ass.
 
BoatShow said:
That'd be all good if Craig tripped over his legs, but it was his back/ass.
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You need a drink Boat, have to come to grips with this one and move on. The fact you think he took a mildly unpredictable path - he slid into 3rd base then proceeded to jump up and move forward towards home so explain to me the path you expect. You don't slide past the base you slide on it then pop up and run so you shouldn't be on the foul side of the path unless you don't know how to slide....everything was fine and as I said and Danzz admitted to also, no one did anything crazy except that sudden urge to make those back legs go up in the air....natural reaction maybe but whether people like to admit it or not he did that on purpose anyway!
 
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mauconnfan said:
You need a drink Boat, have to come to grips with this one and move on. The fact you think he took a mildly unpredictable path - he slid into 3rd base then proceeded to jump up and move forward towards home so explain to me the path you expect. You don't slide past the base you slide on it then pop up and run so you shouldn't be on the foul side of the path unless you don't know how to slide....everything was fine and as I said and Danzz admitted to also, no one did anything crazy except that sudden urge to make those back legs go up in the air....natural reaction maybe but whether people like to admit it or not he did that on purpose anyway!
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Lucky for you I just made an 11th hour trip to the package store for a sixer of Boston Lager!
 
BoatShow said:
That'd be all good if Craig tripped over his legs, but it was his back/ass.
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We could go on with this forever and that is the beauty of baseball. One could argue that by Middlebrooks raising his legs it caused the runner to take a different path.
As one who has umpired I can tell you that these ML guys are outstanding and they usually get it right. It is incredible how often they get the bang bang plays right. My philosophy: if it is a bang bang play and I'm not sure, the call is out. All the not sure plays are outs. It gets me home sooner.:)
 
BoatShow said:
Lucky for you I just made an 11th hour trip to the package store for a sixer of Boston Lager!
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Lucky for you too.........enjoy and maybe it will all swing your way tonight.........maybe Buccy will even have extra in those lox in the back for this one!;)
 
Full disclosure - I've been a Cardinals fan since I was about 5 years old, so take the rest of the post with that in mind.

For the record, I would have much rather seen the Cards win that in a more traditional manner, but the call is absolutely correct and has to be made. Fortunately, the way MLB writes the rule, there is literally no grey area. Intent does not figure into the call. The runner has the right to a direct path to the next base. Once the ball is past the fielder, he is no longer fielding and cannot impact that path in any way. It does not matter that he didn't have time to get up or move. That also is not considered in the rule. Further, the base path is considered to be three feet to either side of the chalk, which he is clearly in.

The rule is in the game for a reason. In the most extreme case, teams could just field 6 NFL linemen sized guys to stand in the base path in front of home plate and the game becomes Red Rover. Obviously the rule is in place so that people can't purposely hinder a runner. Because you often can't be sure of intent, they removed that from the equation. The fact the people debate whether he threw his legs up on purpose or not (even though it does not matter) is exactly why intent was removed from making the call.

Playing devils advocate - let's say he did throw his legs up in order to slow or trip up the runner. How can you not award the base and just play on? The fact that the rule doesn't give the umps the luxury of deciding that is actually good. Instead of judgement call, it's a black and white rule applied the same way every time.

Now all that being said, obviously STL fans are arguing it's correct and most Boston fans argue it's a bad call. But when you look to the middle - those who aren't heavily invested, the vast majority agree it's the right call. I've not seen a single online write up that doesn't agree with the call that was made. Nobody really likes it, but most agree it was correct.

Boston could easily be up 3-0 in the series if they don't make essentially the same mistake twice. Hold on to the ball there - let your closer close and take it to the 10th. Can't feel sorry for the tough call - they put themselves into a position where it had to be made.
 
BoatShow said:
I apologize for disrupting the avatar mojo on this page.
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It is fairly lame I must say.......but a few Boston Lagers should help you find a new one which may also propel you to a "W" tonight. May I suggest a half naked picture of Buccy's wife?
 
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jleves said:
Full disclosure - I've been a Cardinals fan since I was about 5 years old, so take the rest of the post with that in mind.

For the record, I would have much rather seen the Cards win that in a more traditional manner, but the call is absolutely correct and has to be made. Fortunately, the way MLB writes the rule, there is literally no grey area. Intent does not figure into the call. The runner has the right to a direct path to the next base. Once the ball is past the fielder, he is no longer fielding and cannot impact that path in any way. It does not matter that he didn't have time to get up or move. That also is not considered in the rule. Further, the base path is considered to be three feet to either side of the chalk, which he is clearly in.

The rule is in the game for a reason. In the most extreme case, teams could just field 6 NFL linemen sized guys to stand in the base path in front of home plate and the game becomes Red Rover. Obviously the rule is in place so that people can't purposely hinder a runner. Because you often can't be sure of intent, they removed that from the equation. The fact the people debate whether he threw his legs up on purpose or not (even though it does not matter) is exactly why intent was removed from making the call.

Playing devils advocate - let's say he did throw his legs up in order to slow or trip up the runner. How can you not award the base and just play on? The fact that the rule doesn't give the umps the luxury of deciding that is actually good. Instead of judgement call, it's a black and white rule applied the same way every time.

Now all that being said, obviously STL fans are arguing it's correct and most Boston fans argue it's a bad call. But when you look to the middle - those who aren't heavily invested, the vast majority agree it's the right call. I've not seen a single online write up that doesn't agree with the call that was made. Nobody really likes it, but most agree it was correct.

Boston could easily be up 3-0 in the series if they don't make essentially the same mistake twice. Hold on to the ball there - let your closer close and take it to the 10th. Can't feel sorry for the tough call - they put themselves into a position where it had to be made.
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Yeah but as a Cards fan you can't be happy to get 3 terrible AB's vs Peavy with bases loaded and nobody out.........that could have opened that game up for good.........

On the other hand Sox fans can be thinking if Middlebrooks jumps off the bag to catch that or maybe even makes a play on Holliday's grounder down the line things may have been different.......is it me or is he slow footed at 3rd?

Anyway for a guy who doesn't have anything invested in the series other than watching Sox fans suffer in agony, it's been a very good last couple games with what I'm sure will be more entertainment to come!
 
How is game 5 gonna end? Bases loaded catcher's interference? The would be winning run gets hit with a batted ball?
 
Wow how can you make a call like that to end a world series game :eek:.
 
Waquoit said:
Sox got jobbed, pure and simple.
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Hopefully you were drinking when you said that.....but I'm sure now you're a bit happier......

You may be the only person who actually believe they got "jobbed" but again it's you.......what else! Now you can be all happy knowing Papi fueled the rally.....LOL
 
mauconnfan said:
Did you play the game........you don't get up from all slides and start your move to home from the foul territory, especially on a pop up slide where you are ready to go again - slide to the bag not through it.........tough call but certainly the right one.
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I did play the game and watched thousands of games and its rare you see a runner actually push off the bag and make a motion towards second base for a step before running home. Let's not act like the route that he took from 3rd to home was normal, even after a slide, come on now.
The rule is the rule and it will be changed in the offseason so that umpires will have to judge intent.
On to game 5, where the winner likely wins the series.
 
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The Viking said:
I did play the game and watched thousands of games and its rare you see a runner actually push off the bag and make a motion towards second base for a step before running home. Let's not act like the route that he took from 3rd to home was normal, even after a slide, come on now.
The rule is the rule and it will be changed in the offseason so that umpires will have to judge intent.
On to game 5, where the winner likely wins the series.
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Sox should win just need to hit......the Cards can't hit. Up to Wainright to even give them a shot but they have a listless line up. The Sox have Papi and really no one else right now hitting but that win could open it up. When you think about it, a good hitting team who has lived off 2 grand slams and 3 run jack by Gomes........maybe the flood gates open for them and they finish this up in the next 2.

And it wasn't a "normal" path but let's not think it was abnormal either as it's all in where your slide ends up and where you start.......it was fine and the call was the right one. Crazy finish only to be followed up with a picked off runner the next night - weird !
 
Its definetly a must win for the Cards tonight, I could see the Sox coming back from an 3-2 series deficit, not that you wanna be in that position but if the Cards have to battle back from 3-2 its definetly over.
 
BoatShow said:
Lucky for you I just made an 11th hour trip to the package store for a sixer of Boston Lager!
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If you bough me than a sixer, you wouldn't have to keep going back so often. ;)
 
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For the record, it was the correct call, if calling strictly by the book. It is a stupid rule. On the other hand, "Spirit of rule" is interpreted during almost every game at some point or another.

Case in in point the neighborhood rule at second base on a DP attempt. Knoblauch almost never hit second base when he had possession of the ball (whether he was on the Twins, Yankees, or the few games he played 2B as a Royal).

I can also remember a play in a regular season Subway Series (when the Mets were good). where Todd Zeile was playing 1st and Knoblauch ran around him but was gunned down at second. Torre argued obstruction, where Knoblauch didn't even touch Zeile, nor was he impeded. Zeile was facing the outfield and didn't see even see Chucky round first. Chucky was granted 2nd base and the Yankees, of course, went on to win as they always did back then.
 
Just found an article about that game...Dana Demuth was Umpiring Crew Chief...Peculiar...Very Peculiar...;)
 
mauconnfan said:
Sox should win just need to hit......the Cards can't hit. Up to Wainright to even give them a shot but they have a listless line up. The Sox have Papi and really no one else right now hitting but that win could open it up. When you think about it, a good hitting team who has lived off 2 grand slams and 3 run jack by Gomes........maybe the flood gates open for them and they finish this up in the next 2.
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Bogaerts is hitting as well.

I'd consider hitting him right after Ortiz or else flipping Nava with Gomes, sticking Bogaerts at #2.

This is my preferred lineup right now:

Ellsbury
Bogaerts
Pedroia
Ortiz
Napoli (when there's a Dan Hurley)
Nava
Victorino (for fielding only, I'd flip him for Gomes if the corner outfielders didn't give me heartattacks)
Saltalamacchia
Drew
 
upstater said:
Bogaerts is hitting as well.

I'd consider hitting him right after Ortiz or else flipping Nava with Gomes, sticking Bogaerts at #2.

This is my preferred lineup right now:

Ellsbury
Bogaerts
Pedroia
Ortiz
Napoli (when there's a Dan Hurley)
Nava
Victorino (for fielding only, I'd flip him for Gomes if the corner outfielders didn't give me heartattacks)
Saltalamacchia
Drew
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Interesting move on Bogaerts.

If you put Bogaerts up top and move Victorino down, you are giving St. Louis pitching virtually 5 free outs worth of work. Salty is not hitting (Ross should start tonight, but still...neither are hitting). Drew has been putrid in the playoffs, but you need his defense, and Victorino is not doing much better than the catchers.

Gomes and Nava aren't preventing the Cardinals from unintentionally intentionally walking Ortiz. I'd flip Pedroia and Ortiz in the order tonight to give Papi at least the perception of protection. Wednesday (and potentially Thursday) is business as usual.
 
Husky25 said:
Interesting move on Bogaerts.

If you put Bogaerts up top and move Victorino down, you are giving St. Louis pitching virtually 5 free outs worth of work. Salty is not hitting (Ross should start tonight, but still...neither are hitting). Drew has been putrid in the playoffs, but you need his defense, and Victorino is not doing much better than the catchers.

Gomes and Nava aren't preventing the Cardinals from unintentionally intentionally walking Ortiz. I'd flip Pedroia and Ortiz in the order tonight to give Papi at least the perception of protection. Wednesday (and potentially Thursday) is business as usual.
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They may walk Ortiz, but I am much higher on Nava. I get your point about the washout at the bottom of the order, but the games are so low scoring.

More important to score runs at the top of the order.
 
mauconnfan said:
Hopefully you were drinking when you said that.....but I'm sure now you're a bit happier......

You may be the only person who actually believe they got "jobbed" but again it's you.......what else! Now you can be all happy knowing Papi fueled the rally.....LOL
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If the runner was in the baseline, he doesn't trip.
 
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