OT: World Series

[Scoe]

Wow how can you make a call like that to end a world series game .

 

[mauconnfan]

Sox got jobbed, pure and simple.

Hopefully you were drinking when you said that.....but I'm sure now you're a bit happier......

You may be the only person who actually believe they got "jobbed" but again it's you.......what else! Now you can be all happy knowing Papi fueled the rally.....LOL

 

[The Viking]

Did you play the game........you don't get up from all slides and start your move to home from the foul territory, especially on a pop up slide where you are ready to go again - slide to the bag not through it.........tough call but certainly the right one.

I did play the game and watched thousands of games and its rare you see a runner actually push off the bag and make a motion towards second base for a step before running home. Let's not act like the route that he took from 3rd to home was normal, even after a slide, come on now.
The rule is the rule and it will be changed in the offseason so that umpires will have to judge intent.
On to game 5, where the winner likely wins the series.

 

[The Viking]

Wow how can you make a call like that to end a world series game .

Yes because both calls had so much in common. Good one.

 

[mauconnfan]

I did play the game and watched thousands of games and its rare you see a runner actually push off the bag and make a motion towards second base for a step before running home. Let's not act like the route that he took from 3rd to home was normal, even after a slide, come on now.
The rule is the rule and it will be changed in the offseason so that umpires will have to judge intent.
On to game 5, where the winner likely wins the series.

Sox should win just need to hit......the Cards can't hit. Up to Wainright to even give them a shot but they have a listless line up. The Sox have Papi and really no one else right now hitting but that win could open it up. When you think about it, a good hitting team who has lived off 2 grand slams and 3 run jack by Gomes........maybe the flood gates open for them and they finish this up in the next 2.

And it wasn't a "normal" path but let's not think it was abnormal either as it's all in where your slide ends up and where you start.......it was fine and the call was the right one. Crazy finish only to be followed up with a picked off runner the next night - weird !

 

[mauconnfan]

Yes because both calls had so much in common. Good one.

I sensed a hint of sarcasm from here.......

 

[Scoe]

Its definetly a must win for the Cards tonight, I could see the Sox coming back from an 3-2 series deficit, not that you wanna be in that position but if the Cards have to battle back from 3-2 its definetly over.

 

[Scoe]

Yes because both calls had so much in common. Good one.

Both calls were easy to make and that was still the right call the other night.

 

[Husky25]

Lucky for you I just made an 11th hour trip to the package store for a sixer of Boston Lager!

If you bough me than a sixer, you wouldn't have to keep going back so often.

 

[Husky25]

For the record, it was the correct call, if calling strictly by the book. It is a stupid rule. On the other hand, "Spirit of rule" is interpreted during almost every game at some point or another.

Case in in point the neighborhood rule at second base on a DP attempt. Knoblauch almost never hit second base when he had possession of the ball (whether he was on the Twins, Yankees, or the few games he played 2B as a Royal).

I can also remember a play in a regular season Subway Series (when the Mets were good). where Todd Zeile was playing 1st and Knoblauch ran around him but was gunned down at second. Torre argued obstruction, where Knoblauch didn't even touch Zeile, nor was he impeded. Zeile was facing the outfield and didn't see even see Chucky round first. Chucky was granted 2nd base and the Yankees, of course, went on to win as they always did back then.

 

[Husky25]

Just found an article about that game...Dana Demuth was Umpiring Crew Chief...Peculiar...Very Peculiar...

 

[upstater]

Sox should win just need to hit......the Cards can't hit. Up to Wainright to even give them a shot but they have a listless line up. The Sox have Papi and really no one else right now hitting but that win could open it up. When you think about it, a good hitting team who has lived off 2 grand slams and 3 run jack by Gomes........maybe the flood gates open for them and they finish this up in the next 2.

Bogaerts is hitting as well.

I'd consider hitting him right after Ortiz or else flipping Nava with Gomes, sticking Bogaerts at #2.

This is my preferred lineup right now:

Ellsbury
Bogaerts
Pedroia
Ortiz
Napoli (when there's a DH)
Nava
Victorino (for fielding only, I'd flip him for Gomes if the corner outfielders didn't give me heartattacks)
Saltalamacchia
Drew

 

[Husky25]

Bogaerts is hitting as well.

I'd consider hitting him right after Ortiz or else flipping Nava with Gomes, sticking Bogaerts at #2.

This is my preferred lineup right now:

Ellsbury
Bogaerts
Pedroia
Ortiz
Napoli (when there's a DH)
Nava
Victorino (for fielding only, I'd flip him for Gomes if the corner outfielders didn't give me heartattacks)
Saltalamacchia
Drew

Interesting move on Bogaerts.

If you put Bogaerts up top and move Victorino down, you are giving St. Louis pitching virtually 5 free outs worth of work. Salty is not hitting (Ross should start tonight, but still...neither are hitting). Drew has been putrid in the playoffs, but you need his defense, and Victorino is not doing much better than the catchers.

Gomes and Nava aren't preventing the Cardinals from unintentionally intentionally walking Ortiz. I'd flip Pedroia and Ortiz in the order tonight to give Papi at least the perception of protection. Wednesday (and potentially Thursday) is business as usual.

 

[upstater]

Interesting move on Bogaerts.

If you put Bogaerts up top and move Victorino down, you are giving St. Louis pitching virtually 5 free outs worth of work. Salty is not hitting (Ross should start tonight, but still...neither are hitting). Drew has been putrid in the playoffs, but you need his defense, and Victorino is not doing much better than the catchers.

Gomes and Nava aren't preventing the Cardinals from unintentionally intentionally walking Ortiz. I'd flip Pedroia and Ortiz in the order tonight to give Papi at least the perception of protection. Wednesday (and potentially Thursday) is business as usual.

They may walk Ortiz, but I am much higher on Nava. I get your point about the washout at the bottom of the order, but the games are so low scoring.

More important to score runs at the top of the order.

 

[Waquoit]

Hopefully you were drinking when you said that.....but I'm sure now you're a bit happier......

You may be the only person who actually believe they got "jobbed" but again it's you.......what else! Now you can be all happy knowing Papi fueled the rally.....LOL

If the runner was in the baseline, he doesn't trip.

 

[The Viking]

Both calls were easy to make and that was still the right call the other night.

Oh, I looked at it from the standpoint that you were comparing a call that required Torre and the umpires to explain it in a post-game press conference and required Torre to also say they may revise it in the offseason - to a pickoff attempt.

Shame on me.

 

[Husky25]

They may walk Ortiz, but I am much higher on Nava. I get your point about the washout at the bottom of the order, but the games are so low scoring.

More important to score runs at the top of the order.

That's been tried...Albeit, under extenuating circumstances (i.e. the Earthquake), the 1989 San Francisco Giants had a manufacturing and murderous top 4 (Butler, Thompson, Williams, and Mitchell), with a creampuff lower part, and the A's had their way with them...Though what happened to the A's in 1988, they probably weren't being denied, 7.3 shaker or not.

 

[The Viking]

If the runner was in the baseline, he doesn't trip.

apparently the rule allows the baserunner to "create his own baseline" or something to that effect, which sounds strange on the surface, but whatever. The whole rule will be refined this offseason, who knows what they'll do or how they'll re-word things.

Anyway, game 5, Sox need to go for the throat here. Keep the players in the lineup the same, and maybe just maybe one of these freakin times Drew will actually get a solid line drive hit. thank god he's fielding like a gold glover out there.

 

[Husky25]

If the runner was in the baseline, he doesn't trip.

He doesn't have to be within the baseline in that circumstance. Allen has to take a direct line to the next base. It was the correct interpretation of a poorly constructed rule...End of discussion. It is now a best of 3 series with two games at home and the "top" 3 starters for each team pitching.

This has been an entertaining series if not very well played.

 

[Husky25]

apparently the rule allows the baserunner to "create his own baseline" or something to that effect, which sounds strange on the surface, but whatever. The whole rule will be refined this offseason, who knows what they'll do or how they'll re-word things.

Anyway, game 5, Sox need to go for the throat here. Keep the players in the lineup the same, and maybe just maybe one of these freakin times Drew will actually get a solid line drive hit. thank god he's fielding like a gold glover out there.

I'll take a seeing eye single to the hole formerly occupied by the short stop on a hit and run!!!!

 

[60'sfan]

I'll take a seeing eye single to the hole formerly occupied by the short stop on a hit and run!!!!

I'll take one too. At least in his last two at bats in made solid contact. I think he will reward Farrell's faith in him. But what about Salty? I have the feeling that Ross may be the catcher for the rest of the way. And I'm OK with that.

 

[Dogdeacon]

He doesn't have to be within the baseline in that circumstance. Allen has to take a direct line to the next base. It was the correct interpretation of a poorly constructed rule...End of discussion. It is now a best of 3 series with two games at home and the "top" 3 starters for each team pitching.

This has been an entertaining series if not very well played.

I think all most Sox fans want is an acknowledgement that the umpire made a JUDGEMENT call and interpreted the rule. There is/was gray area because IF the runner goes the roundabout route and doesn't step over Middlebrooks they STILL could have called obstruction but probably would not have. Its a tough one as I'd say its 70% or so obstruction. St. Louis fans would have a much better argument and greater injustice if the runner was called out, BUT there is nonetheless merit to the 'no obstruction' argument and its a crime for a World Series game to be decided with ANY uncertainty.

Last night a St. Louis runner stepped around Ross' blocking of the plate. Very different but illustrates that runners do have an option and sometimes, especially if you've got a hurt leg and see a giant body that you have to push down, it might be better to move around an obstacle rather than smack into it. Not that he's a brilliant decision maker, but a quick footed runner such as Kolten Wong probably would have turned the other way around Middlebrooks and made it home easily. I think both Allen Craig purposefully (& smartly) chose the direct route also because Middlebrooks was in the way and that Middlebrooks played up being in the way a little bit (I know it doesn't matter, intention doesn't matter per the rules, I get it) almost like a basketball player that is slow getting up to delay his opponent.

 

[storrsroars]

If the runner was in the baseline, he doesn't trip.

The baseline is wider than the chalk line.

 

[Husky25]

I think all most Sox fans want is an acknowledgement that the umpire made a JUDGEMENT call and interpreted the rule. There is/was gray area because IF the runner goes the roundabout route and doesn't step over Middlebrooks they STILL could have called obstruction but probably would not have. Its a tough one as I'd say its 70% or so obstruction. St. Louis fans would have a much better argument and greater injustice if the runner was called out, BUT there is nonetheless merit to the 'no obstruction' argument and its a crime for a World Series game to be decided with ANY uncertainty.

Last night a St. Louis runner stepped around Ross' blocking of the plate. Very different but illustrates that runners do have an option and sometimes, especially if you've got a hurt leg and see a giant body that you have to push down, it might be better to move around an obstacle rather than smack into it. Not that he's a brilliant decision maker, but a quick footed runner such as Kolten Wong probably would have turned the other way around Middlebrooks and made it home easily. I think both Allen Craig purposefully (& smartly) chose the direct route also because Middlebrooks was in the way and that Middlebrooks played up being in the way a little bit (I know it doesn't matter, intention doesn't matter per the rules, I get it) almost like a basketball player that is slow getting up to delay his opponent.

If Metheny or Oquendo are worth their salt, they would have argued obstruction, much like Mazzilli/Torre did in 2000. Chances are, the game ended on obstruction, regardless...Unless Craig stopped halfway down the line. As soon as Craig slid, he committed to trying to score and was awarded the next base, which was home.

Look at it this way, At least the Cardinals didn't throw behind Victorino and Big Matt Adams and Adams lifted Vic's leg off the bag, a la Kent Hrbek

 

[Danzz]

I'll take one too. At least in his last two at bats in made solid contact. I think he will reward Farrell's faith in him. But what about Salty? I have the feeling that Ross may be the catcher for the rest of the way. And I'm OK with that.

Yes, I also think they go with Ross. Salty's plus is his offense but he has struck out a lot and hasn't hit a ball hard in awhile. At least they pick up some D with Ross. Bogarts at SS and Middlebrooks at 3B is intriguing but I think Farrell goes with Drew.