OT: US women's soccer star Megan Rapinoe refuses to stand for the national anthem | Page 7 | The Boneyard

OT: US women's soccer star Megan Rapinoe refuses to stand for the national anthem

BigBird

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Generally it is a sign of submission (or an indication that you are exhausted).

At some point in my quasi-vast education, I think I recall learning that kneeling was a submissive position because it is extremely difficult to draw or wield a broadsword in that position. It places the life and safety of the kneeling person in the hands of the person standing, or his/her agents attending the court.
 

UcMiami

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Interesting situation coming for Megan with an NT friendly. I fully support her kneeling on her club team, but when playing for the NT I think it is similar to 'being in the army' in that your are subject to a different code of behavior.
 

meyers7

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This was never about the history of the national anthem. That's not even a discussion point and really irrelevant, that wasn't even the topic of my original post that you quoted. I agree with whatever you say about the national anthem, so there that's over. Back to the point of the thread....
You're the one who brought up the history. I was just correcting you.

The national anthem being played before games was started as a marketing tool to boost attendance at a baseball game and had little or nothing to do with patriotism or love for the country.
Not really. It had quite a bit to do with patriotism.

From the archives: History of national anthem in sports
 

meyers7

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Interesting situation coming for Megan with an NT friendly. I fully support her kneeling on her club team, but when playing for the NT I think it is similar to 'being in the army' in that your are subject to a different code of behavior.
USWNT response.

"Representing your country is a privilege and honor for any player or coach that is associated with U.S. Soccer's National Teams. Therefore, our national anthem has particular significance for U.S. Soccer. In front of national and often global audiences, the playing of our national anthem is an opportunity for our Men's and Women's National Team players and coaches to reflect upon the liberties and freedom we all appreciate in this country. As part of the privilege to represent your country, we have an expectation that our players and coaches will stand and honor our flag while the national anthem is played."
 

BigBird

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I heard an interview with Megan in which she referred to her First Amendment right of protest and free speech. As an employee of the USWNT, her rights are in fact limited by her contract and the organizational rules that may be.

The First Amendment protects us from government censorship (prohibiting a communication in advance of its utterance) and such govermental punishments or sanctions as might reasonably be thought to create a "chilling effect" on public discourse.

The First Amendment does not, absent other factors, give us a right to act up, act out, or criticize our employers and expect there to be no consequences as a result of having done so.

Even though I like and respect Rapinoe, she is walking on some thin ice.
 

UcMiami

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BigBird you make a very important point about our constitutional rights vs. our legal rights as employees during our working hours and depending on our contract during our non-working hours as well. People do often confuse the two. There are many actions that are protected by the constitution and are not 'illegal' but that will get you fired in a heartbeat.

It gets even more convoluted when you are a member of our military because in the military you are ruled by the military code of justice as opposed to the US Code.
 

Kibitzer

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[QUOTE="UcMiami, post: 1807873, member: 199"
It gets even more convoluted when you are a member of our military because in the military you are ruled by the military code of justice as opposed to the US Code.[/QUOTE]

Wrong. Not convoluted at all. When individuals enter the Armed Forces, they are "sworn in" by taking an oath to uphold the US Constitution and obey orders (which means adherence to the UCMJ).

This gives some credence to this ageless bit of GI humor:

"When sergeant says 'Jump!,' the correct response is 'How high?'"
Sitting or kneeling during the National Anthem is hardly an option.
 
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UcMiami

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[QUOTE="UcMiami, post: 1807873, member: 199"
It gets even more convoluted when you are a member of our military because in the military you are ruled by the military code of justice as opposed to the US Code.

Wrong. Not convoluted at all. When individuals enter the Armed Forces, they are "sworn in" by taking an oath to uphold the US Constitution and obey orders (which means adherence to the UCMJ).

This gives some credence to this ageless bit of GI humor:

"When sergeant says 'Jump!,' the correct response is 'How high?'"
Sitting or kneeling during the National Anthem is hardly an option.[/QUOTE]
Just meaning they are under two codes of justice which do not always correspond exactly - off duty actions off base can be prosecuted under civilian codes, and of course if they are stationed overseas, they may fall under the national laws of whatever country they are posted to. Jurisdictions can get pretty muddy.
 

Kibitzer

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Wrong. Not convoluted at all. When individuals enter the Armed Forces, they are "sworn in" by taking an oath to uphold the US Constitution and obey orders (which means adherence to the UCMJ).

This gives some credence to this ageless bit of GI humor:

"When sergeant says 'Jump!,' the correct response is 'How high?'"
Sitting or kneeling during the National Anthem is hardly an option.
Just meaning they are under two codes of justice which do not always correspond exactly - off duty actions off base can be prosecuted under civilian codes, and of course if they are stationed overseas, they may fall under the national laws of whatever country they are posted to. Jurisdictions can get pretty muddy.[/QUOTE]

Not really. All of us are subject to municipal, state, and federal laws.. It gets confusing when we travel across town lines, convoluted when we go from state to state, and ridiculously exasperating when we cross borders or go abroad.

Keeps a lot of lawyers employed and boosts incarceration rates. ;)
 
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I heard an interview with Megan in which she referred to her First Amendment right of protest and free speech. As an employee of the USWNT, her rights are in fact limited by her contract and the organizational rules that may be.

The First Amendment protects us from government censorship (prohibiting a communication in advance of its utterance) and such govermental punishments or sanctions as might reasonably be thought to create a "chilling effect" on public discourse.

The First Amendment does not, absent other factors, give us a right to act up, act out, or criticize our employers and expect there to be no consequences as a result of having done so.

Even though I like and respect Rapinoe, she is walking on some thin ice.

The right to protest cannot be abridged by an employer. She is making a political statement, not criticizing her coach. The national team is not the United States Army. She is not operating in a war zone. She has a right to make a statement. And kneeing, or in some way protesting in a way related to the flat is not a crime.

Indeed, the commander-in-chief, Barack Obama, has "called Kaepernick’s decision to kneel down during the national anthem an 'exercise of his constitutional right', and commended him for standing up for an issue he 'sincerely believes in'." So it makes little sense to criticize Rapinoe for doing the same.
 

BigBird

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The right to protest cannot be abridged by an employer. She is making a political statement, not criticizing her coach. The national team is not the United States Army. She is not operating in a war zone. She has a right to make a statement. And kneeing, or in some way protesting in a way related to the flat is not a crime.

Indeed, the commander-in-chief, Barack Obama, has "called Kaepernick’s decision to kneel down during the national anthem an 'exercise of his constitutional right', and commended him for standing up for an issue he 'sincerely believes in'." So it makes little sense to criticize Rapinoe for doing the same.

An interesting response, but you were legally erroneous from the first line. Yes, employers CAN abridge, control, or influence an employee's on-the-job communications, be they in protest or communicating most anything else. Try wearing a "Dump Trump" tee shirt to your sales job at your local mall store and see where that gets you.

"The first thing to know about the First Amendment is that it is a limit only on government. It prohibits the federal government from making laws that infringe on the rights of religion, speech, press, assembly and petition. Through the Fourteenth Amendment, state and local governments are also prohibited from infringing on these rights. Yet, one of the most powerful restraints on individual freedom is the power of employers to discharge workers. If your employer is a private entity, the First Amendment offers you no protection from being fired on account of what you say. (You may still have protection from other sources described below, or in the one state that abolished employment-at-will, Montana)."

As to the President's remarks, context is important. My guess is that he referred to CK's ideas as free speech, not the protest itself. The "performance" of NFL football belongs to the NFL, not to the players, at least not yet. Only if the player is protected by the terms of the CBA do they not risk reprisal. As we move forward, you'll see these pre-game behaviors become part of the CBA. That's if the playing of the anthem continues in the present manner.

You said, "So it makes little sense to criticize Rapinoe for doing the same." Frankly, I didn't. Similarly, much of your opening paragraph is so loosely constructed that it's hard to respond to it at all.
 
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Kibitzer

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High school teams are kneeling for anthem now.


I commented on this spreading phenomenon earlier. I am concerned that it will arouse so much controversy that the recourse may be to dispense with pre-game playing of the National Anthem.

That would be an unfortunate solution but perhaps the only way to cool the developing ardor on both sides of this increasingly contentious issue.

I hope I am mistaken.
 

UcMiami

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Kib - I agree that it may be the only way to stop the kneeling protest, but I still have a hard time understanding why people can't just accept what is to me a very 'respectful' kind of protest. They aren't in any way disrupting the playing of the anthem or interfering in everyone else's ability to stand.

To me it is like saying when a benediction is offered at the beginning of a gathering, 'Well, there were five atheists in the crowd who didn't say, Amen, so I guess we shouldn't do that any more, because they destroyed our group prayer.'

I guess if this ritual of patriotism is so fragile that 0.1% of the crowd not participating destroys it for everyone, it really should be abandoned.
 

Kibitzer

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Kib - I agree that it may be the only way to stop the kneeling protest, but I still have a hard time understanding why people can't just accept what is to me a very 'respectful' kind of protest. They aren't in any way disrupting the playing of the anthem or interfering in everyone else's ability to stand.

Many people don't share your generous tolerance. They consider it highly disrespectful and it pisses them off. The longer (and broader) it continues, both their numbers and intensity will increase. Could get nasty. "Stop the music!" may be the only non-confrontational solution.
 
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Many people don't share your generous tolerance. They consider it highly disrespectful and it pisses them off. The longer (and broader) it continues, both their numbers and intensity will increase. Could get nasty. "Stop the music!" may be the only non-confrontational solution.

It's interesting that this writer considers the protest disrespectful. But he offers no alternative form of protest that he would consider acceptable. The point seems to be that Black people, including Tina Charles, Swin Cash, and virtually the entire WNBA players union members, should just shut up about the discrimination going on to other Blacks, and do what they're told.

I find their protests courageous, and something very much to respect. And so, clearly, does President Obama.
 

Kibitzer

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It's interesting that this writer considers the protest disrespectful. But he offers no alternative form of protest that he would consider acceptable. The point seems to be that Black people, including Tina Charles, Swin Cash, and virtually the entire WNBA players union members, should just shut up about the discrimination going on to other Blacks, and do what they're told.

I find their protests courageous, and something very much to respect. And so, clearly, does President Obama.

Don't misquote me! I said "many people find [it] disrespectful." I have no obligation to you to present an alternative. My concern is that we may be headed for a nasty confrontation rather than an end of discrimination.

Frankly, your careless misrepresentation of my views pisses me off.:mad:
 
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Throw her off the team now, don't waste time. She stands for a country who leads the world in sex trafficking and not for her own?

Later Meg, it'e been real!
 

UcMiami

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Many people don't share your generous tolerance. They consider it highly disrespectful and it pisses them off. The longer (and broader) it continues, both their numbers and intensity will increase. Could get nasty. "Stop the music!" may be the only non-confrontational solution.
What interests me is this anger, because it is so prevalent now in this country - everyone seems so concerned about everyone else's activity when it in no way impacts their own.
I can't take pleasure in standing for the national anthem because someone else is quietly kneeling.
My marriage is made meaningless because same sex couples are allowed to be married.
My reproductive life is changed because someone else can use family planning.
My earning power will be disadvantaged because equal pay is guaranteed for equal work.

And the anger that gets stoked is to my mind so out of proportion.
 

BigBird

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What interests me is this anger, because it is so prevalent now in this country - everyone seems so concerned about everyone else's activity when it in no way impacts their own.
I can't take pleasure in standing for the national anthem because someone else is quietly kneeling.
My marriage is made meaningless because same sex couples are allowed to be married.
My reproductive life is changed because someone else can use family planning.
My earning power will be disadvantaged because equal pay is guaranteed for equal work.

And the anger that gets stoked is to my mind so out of proportion.

Miami, you MUST stop with this sensible response thing you keep doing. It's SO out of style. What next? Are you going to right the 23 degree tilt of the Earth off of its axis? Then where are we going to be?

Insane is the new normal.
 
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Don't misquote me! I said "many people find [it] disrespectful." I have no obligation to you to present an alternative. My concern is that we may be headed for a nasty confrontation rather than an end of discrimination.

Frankly, your careless misrepresentation of my views pisses me off.:mad:

A nasty confrontation? Are you saying that the African-Americans who protest racial prejudice and police violence against minorities are going to be the targets of violence? What sort of "nasty confrontation" are you talking about?

My point about presenting an alternative is that it appears many people take offence to the manner in which these athletes protest. But they don't seem to be able to come up with a manner of protest with which they would be comfortable, or that would not offend them. In other words, they really want these minority athletes to keep quiet about these issues. And, clearly, they are not willing to remain silent any longer.

Can't help if my views trouble you. If so, don't respond.
 
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.... it appears many people take offence to the manner in which these athletes protest. But they don't seem to be able to come up with a manner of protest with which they would be comfortable, or that would not offend them. In other words, they really want these minority athletes to keep quiet about these issues.

I'm a 70 year old white man who couldn't care less about any of the anthem protests to date. I'm old enough to have seen much more intense social actions, and I have sympathy for their cause. I've also never been a fan of anthems at sporting events.

I would argue, however, that employees don't have any right to use their workplace, filled primarily with unwilling hostage fans in this case, for personal political purposes. They have numerous other avenues - sit out games and forego their pay, assemble as a group after the game and meet the press, pretty much say and do anything they wish outside the work environment.
 

meyers7

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Actually you validated me you just don't realize it.
You seem to have quite a problem with comprehension. I'll try to remember that if we interact in the future.
 

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