OT: US women's soccer star Megan Rapinoe refuses to stand for the national anthem

[meyers7]

and what about the lost "3rd verse"

What about it?

It's not lost.

 

[DaddyChoc]

What about it?

It's not lost.

I can't find it, you got it?

 

[UcMiami]

I found the wide range of the ways NFL players 'protested' yesterday to be interesting, and to be an expansion of the conversation in just the way CK wanted to achieve by his own action. As does this thread, which I have found very interesting with many good and very disparate views expressed. (A nod to the boneyard again, where thoughtful discussion really does win out over the drivel of most on-line forums.)

Something for our historians to track down ... when did it become 'stand and place hand over heart' is the only acceptable way to show reverence to the flag and anthem? And it it written that there is special dispensation for those who are frail or infirm to sit. Isn't kneeling also a sign of respect? Tim Tebow made that famous in the NFL as an sign of respect to God, as do many others in prayer circles after games, before games, and of course in churches across the land.

 

[UcMiami]

I can't find it, you got it?

Just use the google for the full song.

 

[Bigpetunia]

When Ta-Nehisi Coates' book, "Between The World And Me," made a big public splash a year or two ago, my reaction upon reading it was partly that it was a bit over the top, and partly that if I were a part of the Black experience in America, I would probably have written a very similar book. I cannot legitimately presume to stand in those shoes, but I fully understand the sentiments expressed therein. Many posters, equally unqualified to stand in those shoes, have been deeply affronted by the anthem protest. You were supposed to be. Your opinion as to the form of the protest, as well as mine, is a matter of indifference. Supporting the right to such free expression, whether it be an anthem protest, nutty neo-Nazis marching in Skokie, or similar actions, so long as they are non-violent, is the key thing. From my perspective, the protests were understandable and probably justified, but my opinion counts for nothing.

 

[Kibitzer]

Something for our historians to track down ... when did it become 'stand and place hand over heart' is the only acceptable way to show reverence to the flag and anthem?

Title 4, Chapter 1, US Code. Also Public Law 829, December 22, 1942, passed by 77th Congress.

More recently, veterans were authorized to render hand salute during National Anthem; no uniform requirement. (I do it.)

 

[BigBird]

Verses 3 & 4

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

O thus be it ever when freemen shall stand
Between their lov’d home and the war’s desolation!
Blest with vict’ry and peace may the heav’n rescued land
Praise the power that hath made and preserv’d us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto – “In God is our trust,”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

These verses are, if I recall rightly, included in the Episcopal Hymnal 1940. There are omitted from the 1982 version of the same. I would guess that the harsh imagery and language might have much to do with that.

As to the music, Kib's post is correct. The tune was wriiten as a fraternal song for one of the hundreds of now-extinct social groups. The tune was picked up and set with alternate lyrics to parody various politicians or most anything else that came to mind. The tune, while somewhat difficult to sing well, is very easy to sing otherwise. It was popular, and was sung in various venues where people gathered, taverns being but one example. Hence, the semi-truth that our anthem was a "drinking song."

 

[lne001]

Isn't kneeling also a sign of respect?

Generally it is a sign of submission (or an indication that you are exhausted).

 

[UConn79]

So tired of this. I know "then don't participate". To paraphrase Frankenstein, "USA bad, rest of world good".

I know our country is not perfect, we have a lot to work on. But if Colin Kaepernick , Megan Rapinoe and any other American athletes don't want to respect our flag and what it stands for, then maybe they should find the country that they feel does it better and move there.

 

[UcMiami]

So tired of this. I know "then don't participate". To paraphrase Frankenstein, "USA bad, rest of world good".

I know our country is not perfect, we have a lot to work on. But if Colin Kaepernick , Megan Rapinoe and any other American athletes don't want to respect our flag and what it stands for, then maybe they should find the country that they feel does it better and move there.

I don't think any one of the protestors has said they prefer another country over the US. And how do you feel about a candidate for office who says US president is bad, Russian president is good? Should they move to Russia?
This idea that all US citizens born and bred must conform to some rituals or leave is anathema to our founding principles and the heritage of people coming to this country to escape exactly those kinds of regimes. Over the last eight years the number of politicians who have broken with rituals of respect or who have been ostracized because they did conform is too numerous to count and I never heard anyone calling for them to choose another country.

 

[NSP Hoops]

Not really. It had quite a bit to do with patriotism.

From the archives: History of national anthem in sports

Not really

 

[DaddyChoc]

CK point of protest is being ignored with the excuse of disrespecting the flag... again, that's his point

 

[meyers7]

Not really

You many need to read up on things, and not listen to a comedian for your historical information.

 

[meyers7]

CK point of protest is being ignored with the excuse of disrespecting the flag... again, that's his point

Disrespecting the flag AND the anthem. The symbols of the the country that gives him the right to protest. The stupidity/irony of that seems to be lost on a lot of people.

 

[meyers7]

I don't think any one of the protestors has said they prefer another country over the US. And how do you feel about a candidate for office who says US president is bad, Russian president is good? Should they move to Russia?

I think everybody running for president this year should move to Russia.

 

[DaddyChoc]

still can't get anyone to discuss his reason... maybe they don't see a problem (that's the problem) or they agree with how some people are treated.

#keephidingbehindtheflag #smokeandmirrors

 

[NSP Hoops]

You many need to read up on things, and not listen to a comedian for your historical information.

I do read and read a lot more than ESPN blogs. If you feel that an unarmed American shot down for walking down the street drinking a soda is right then there is nothing more to discuss.

 

[bags27]

when did it become 'stand and place hand over heart' is the only acceptable way to show reverence to the flag and anthem?

36 U.S. Code 301(c):
"all other persons present [who are not members of the Armed Forces] should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart"
36 U.S. Code § 301 - National anthem

But Jehovah's Witnesses do not sing and their standing is voluntary: it's left to their own conscience, which is interesting, as that's what we're talking about here as well: what your conscience tells you:
"Jehovah’s Witnesses are not allowed to salute the flag of any nation, recite the pledge of allegiance, stand for or sing the national anthem, run for public office, vote, or serve in the armed forces." This is their own document:
Jehovah's Witness Beliefs

Standing for the National Anthem began in 1893 as a spontaneous and individual act and has since become part of U.S. Code.

 

[bags27]

I should add to the above that we of course stand for the "Hallelujah Chorus" in Handel's Messiah. It is a custom (even for us non-Christians), started (at least legendarily) when George II, upon hearing it, was overcome by emotion and rose, so naturally everyone else had to stand as well.

But there is (very minor) resistance to this on grounds of principle: that we are paying homage to George II, perceived in America as a tyrant:
New Oxford Review

 

[UcMiami]

Disrespecting the flag AND the anthem. The symbols of the the country that gives him the right to protest. The stupidity/irony of that seems to be lost on a lot of people.

And his point is that that same country through its various official institutions, laws, and employees has disrespected some of its citizens and therefore has not earned his respect in return. That the justice department, congress, the president, and the supreme court, as well as state and local arms of government have not done enough to ensure equal protection for all, and that they have for too long ignore real issues of injustice. Peaceful civil disobedience is a time honored form of protest against the apathy of a government to members or 'classes' of its citizenry. By not conforming to the codified ritual form of reverence to the flag and the anthem, he is expressing frustration for the government for which those are symbols. I am not sure I would call failure to conform to the ritual as 'disrespect' for the symbols, but a withholding of respect.

We have people including a governor of a state who openly talk about secession from the US - including thousands who have signed petitions, but who at the same time follow the ritual, which seems both an extreme hypocrisy, and a mockery of the ritual. We have judges and employees of the government who openly flout federal and state law, but we do not question their 'patriotism' or see their performance of this ritual of reverence to be hypocritical and a mockery. We have a government which wraps itself in the patriotism of 9/11, but then drags its feet for years to provide adequate support to the first responders who were the shining example on that day and all of the days that followed. We have thousands of conspiracy theorists who arm themselves against their government and yet who condemn someone for not performing a ritual in reverence to that same government. It really is a mixed up world.

 

[meyers7]

I do read and read a lot more than ESPN blogs. If you feel that an unarmed American shot down for walking down the street drinking a soda is right then there is nothing more to discuss.

And this has to do with the history of the National Anthem being played at sporting events???? WTH???

Maybe you keep the discussion on what we are actually discussing, hmmmm?

 

[meyers7]

And his point is that that same country through its various official institutions, laws, and employees has disrespected some of its citizens and therefore has not earned his respect in return. That the justice department, congress, the president, and the supreme court, as well as state and local arms of government have not done enough to ensure equal protection for all, and that they have for too long ignore real issues of injustice. Peaceful civil disobedience is a time honored form of protest against the apathy of a government to members or 'classes' of its citizenry. By not conforming to the codified ritual form of reverence to the flag and the anthem, he is expressing frustration for the government for which those are symbols. I am not sure I would call failure to conform to the ritual as 'disrespect' for the symbols, but a withholding of respect.

Well call it call it what you will, it is disrespecting the Flag and National Anthem. When your argument gets the Clinton's "what the definition of is is", you know you're on the wrong side. (or you should know anyway)
His problem is instead of actually protesting what he sees an injustice and trying to do something about it, he instead draws attention to himself by disrespecting the Flag and National Anthem.

Nothing wrong with wanting to make your country better, just shouldn't do it by going out of your way to disrespect the country. Makes no sense.

We have people including a governor of a state who openly talk about secession from the US - including thousands who have signed petitions, but who at the same time follow the ritual, which seems both an extreme hypocrisy, and a mockery of the ritual. We have judges and employees of the government who openly flout federal and state law, but we do not question their 'patriotism' or see their performance of this ritual of reverence to be hypocritical and a mockery. We have a government which wraps itself in the patriotism of 9/11, but then drags its feet for years to provide adequate support to the first responders who were the shining example on that day and all of the days that followed. We have thousands of conspiracy theorists who arm themselves against their government and yet who condemn someone for not performing a ritual in reverence to that same government. It really is a mixed up world.

Well as I've stated on here many times, everyone is a hypocrite. Just on different things. This just happens to be his and it would seem a few others on here.

 

[NSP Hoops]

still can't get anyone to discuss his reason... maybe they don't see a problem (that's the problem) or they agree with how some people are treated.

#keephidingbehindtheflag #smokeandmirrors

Exactly

 

[NSP Hoops]

And this has to do with the history of the National Anthem being played at sporting events???? WTH???

Maybe you keep the discussion on what we are actually discussing, hmmmm?

This was never about the history of the national anthem. That's not even a discussion point and really irrelevant, that wasn't even the topic of my original post that you quoted. I agree with whatever you say about the national anthem, so there that's over. Back to the point of the thread....

 

[BigBird]

I should add to the above that we of course stand for the "Hallelujah Chorus" in Handel's Messiah. It is a custom (even for us non-Christians), started (at least legendarily) when George II, upon hearing it, was overcome by emotion and rose, so naturally everyone else had to stand as well.

But there is (very minor) resistance to this on grounds of principle: that we are paying homage to George II, perceived in America as a tyrant:
New Oxford Review

George II was actually the grandfather of King George III, with whom the colonies had all those famous differences of perspective. George II was, if I recall correctly, the last monarch to lead English troops into combat. Otherwise, he was occupied by issues elsewhere in the empire, and was tolerable in his dealings with the colonies. George III is widely suspected, even among British academics as being mentally disturbed or having "personailty disorders." His unwillingness to negotiate (or even receive colonial diplomats) made armed conflict inevitable. But opinions vary.