OT- Tony Stewart

[superjohn]

You know there's this pesky thing called "innocent until proven guilty"

In theory yes but our justice system often gets it wrong. My problem is people stating things as facts from the videotape that I don't see as facts, it comes down to interpretation. The only fact is that Ward was on the track out of his car, he was hit by Stewarts car and died. It looks to me that Stewart tries to buzz the guy and gets too close, Ward certainly lost his cool and never should have been on the track, I also think Stewart lost his cool and drove too fast and close to him, this crash never should have happened. As far as the investigation, I just hope everything is covered and there is a fair conclusion.

 

[nomar]

I'm on Strummer's side. All he's saying is that a lot of people are making a lot of comments that are based entirely on supposition.

I could say "he clearly was behind a car that was shielding his view" and if I had the burden of proof, I'd fail. Just like everyone who's saying he purposely accelerated into the guy -- or tried to clip him, or "definitely" saw him -- fails.

You can't tell jack squat from the video. Other than the facts that Ward was wearing black and walked onto a racetrack.

 

[nomar]

You sure seem to have made up your mind on Stewart's innocence too quickly and have stated things as facts when they are your opinions.

He didn't say Stewart is innocent. He's presuming his innocence. Big difference.

It looks like you're backtracking a little but one of you is saying what's in the video and the other person is interpreting what's in the video and speculating about what's not in the video.

 

[UconnU]

I think stewart did consciously speed up and drive close to him to scare the kid.

 

[intlzncster]

In theory yes but our justice system often gets it wrong. My problem is people stating things as facts from the videotape that I don't see as facts, it comes down to interpretation. The only fact is that Ward was on the track out of his car, he was hit by Stewarts car and died. It looks to me that Stewart tries to buzz the guy and gets too close, Ward certainly lost his cool and never should have been on the track, I also think Stewart lost his cool and drove too fast and close to him, this crash never should have happened. As far as the investigation, I just hope everything is covered and there is a fair conclusion.

Good post. That's where I'm at.

 

[whaler11]

Anytime a NASCAR champion can spend his Saturday evening sticking 20 year old amatures into walls...

 

[superjohn]

He didn't say Stewart is innocent. He's presuming his innocence. Big difference.

It looks like you're backtracking a little but one of you is saying what's in the video and the other person is interpreting what's in the video and speculating about what's not in the video.

Huh, you lost me?

 

[SubbaBub]

I'd rather watch The View than Nascar, so I don't have any horse in this race.

It's completely, unequivocally silly to even mention criminal charges in this matter.

Here are the facts:

Dude wearing black outfit and black helmet gets onto dark track and puts himself into the potential path of oncoming vehicles, which he knows are there.

He intentionally puts himself into close proximity with a car driver.

He is hit and killed by that driver.

The video doesn't show Stewart "speeding up" or "driving at him." If anything, he was worried about hitting this Darwinian Exhibit A and steered left, causing his ass end to kick out right.

No reasonable person could conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, or even close to that standard, that Stewart intentionally or recklessly hit this idiot.

Not to be put too blunt a tip on it - but you either have an axe to grind against this guy or you're not a reasonable person if you look at this and think that this is criminal liability here.

And this is what is scary about the justice system - get a DA looking for exposure or a LEO with no common sense and maybe they start the process and this becomes a huge waste of everybody's time.

You are correct, but it is too early to say if Stewart did or didn't contribute to the accident. Tony is a legendary hot head who has on numerous occasions been the guy stalking a racecar on foot after a crash. I wouldn't believe he was hot enough to actually hit the guy on purpose, but if you told me that he was hot enough to attemt put a scare into a 20 yr old local coming at him after banging fenders with him, misjudging the reactions of an unfamiliar car at an unfamiliar track and accidently clipped the kid with his open wheel tire. Yeah, I think that is within the realm of possibility. I don't think that's what occurred necessarily

 

[UconnU]

Can you guys believe that names like Tony Stewart still race in races like this??

 

[nomar]

Huh, you lost me?

That was hard to follow?

 

[intlzncster]

You clearly have an axe to grind or you are unreasonable.
The video posted in this thread - the only one I've seen on the Net so far - pans away from the guy who got hit right before Stewart's car gets there, and so we only see a split second of Stewart before he has reached the guy. It's not even just unreasonable - it's ridiculous - to say that "he makes no attempt to miss the guy." You'd have to have a lot more video to see the path he was on.
Your conclusion here is UNREASONABLE.
He stayed up near his car until just before Stewart came around. He only started moving down the track a few cars in front of Stewart. So, really, only a car or two had to avoid the guy, and, of course, it was Stewart he wanted to go after, so he may have been even closer to Stewart's car - hard to see.
Your conclusion here is UNREASONABLE.
Sounds reasonable. But your implication is that Stewart was intentionally "high". Problem is, that track didn't look 4 cars wide. The guy's wreck was at the top. He was occupying the second width from the top. The car that passed before Stewart was in the 2nd spot. Stewart looked about 2 or 3 feet higher than that.
It's UNREASONABLE to imply that Stewart was "high" on the track inappropriately. He was about in the middle, and a least a car and half's width from the wreck. The problem was the idiot running around in the middle of the track.
Point is this. You are emotional/irrational about this. Not sure why. But when you make claims like "he didn't try to steer away from the guy" and all we have is 1/10th of a second of his driving path, it makes it clear that you want this guy guilty of murder no matter what.
In any event, I think it's not impossible that Stewart intentionally boarded the guy. Then intentionally drove close to him to try to give him the big Screw U. Heck, I even think it's possible, although unlikely, that he tried to hit the dude to send a message. Jeez - it's even possible that he tried to kill the guy.

What NASCAR should say about this is: "we sorry we've been remiss in our duty to protect our drivers. After today, getting out of your car unless there is a [color] flag out is an automatic 1 year ban."

What they will say is something about unfortunate accident, we'll review the rules, implement one a few days to weeks or months later that purports to solve the problem, and clear Stewart. Bank it.

No axe to grind at all. And I'm not emotional or bent out of shape about it (sad for the dead driver of course).

Nor do I think Stewart intentionally tried to hurt the guy or even hit him. Probably just buzz him, but obviously I have no idea of his actual motives.

I backtracked on the acceleration claim, because although you can hear a throttle, it could be another car in the race. So I was wrong to on that one.

My argument was, and I'm of the opinion that, Stewart was negligent. The driver before him managed to easily avoid the guy, even though the guy on foot was the same distance down the track as when Stewart hit him.

I understand, from reading NASCAR forums, that this particular kind of car is very difficult to control. And of course is on an unstable dirt track.

I do think Stewart's known 'troublemaker' past should be a factor in this as well.

However, I think NASCAR will conclude this is an accident and Stewart with be cleared to race.

 

[Strummer]

The only fact is that Ward was on the track out of his car, he was hit by Stewarts car and died.

Wrong. You purposely leave out all of the facts that support innocence.

FACT - Ward got out of his car.
FACT - Ward walked down toward the center of the track.
FACT - Ward was gesturing and making other arm movements that most people would associate with anger.
FACT - Ward jumped back and forth.
FACT - Stewart is only in the video for a fraction of a second and there is no reliable way to judge his speed or angle at this point.
FACT - There is no "fishtail" apparent other than a fishtail after body impact and in the direction opposite Ward.
FACT - Ward was wearing all black.
FACT - Ward walked onto a part of the track on which cars drive.
FACT - Ward violated NASCAR rules when he did that.

Point is this - at this moment in time, all the facts support that nothing criminal is provable here, whether or not Stewart was reckless or intended harm.

If more information comes out, that is subject to change.

FOR EXAMPLE

Pit crew reports Stewart saying, "I'm gunnuh scare that boy," half a lap after pushing him into the wall.
New video shows that Stewart took a wide angle around the turn.
New video shows Stewart fishtailed his butt out wide right immediately prior to impact.
New video or review of current video shows Stewart accelerating or traveling substantially faster than other cars.
And so on.

But right now - you're just a hanging judge. That's it. You're wildly jumping to conclusions. You imparting intention upon Stewart with only 1/10 of a second of video and a couple decades of dislike for the guy to support your conclusion.

You're a hanging judge.

I used to be. Then I went to law school and saw how screwed up our system was, and how critical to freedom the presumption of innocence is.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I'm pretty sure Stewart actually accelerated into him. At least it looks that way on video. And you can hear the throttle pump. I could be wrong, but I need solid proof of that.

He kind of fishtailed at the end. When the drive wheels lose traction, the RPMs are going to rise. IMO, there's nothing in that video that suggests to me that he purposely accelerated into him. You're talking about a type of motorsport that has much less grip than road racing and any sudden reactions could have had him lose control. I think you're looking at this through the lens of everyday driving when these are two VERY different things.

 

[intlzncster]

He kind of fishtailed at the end. When the drive wheels lose traction, the RPMs are going to rise. IMO, there's nothing in that video that suggests to me that he purposely accelerated into him. You're talking about a type of motorsport that has much less grip than road racing and any sudden reactions could have had him lose control. I think you're looking at this through the lens of everyday driving when these are two VERY different things.

Yeah, I've backtracked from the acceleration viewpoint. The pump of the throttle that I'm hearing could have been another car.

 

[Nnocu]

Anyone know how fast he was going?

Edit: Apparently he was going 30-35 mph.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Yeah, I've backtracked from the acceleration viewpoint. The pump of the throttle that I'm hearing could have been another car.

Yeah, I saw that reading through the thread. I was actually autocrossing my car today and the consensus from the guys I talked to with a lot of autocross, road course, rally, and ice racing experience is that there was nothing in the video that would lead them to believe that he purposely did it.

 

[David 76]

Something similar happen to my son when he was racing,the driver got out of the car and was standing in the middle of the track. It was hit her or hit her car, so he hit her car, no where else to go, of course she went crazy on him.

Sorry your son (and you) had to go through that.

 

[David 76]

Nothing can be confirmed from the video. But is reasonable to entertain the notion that Stewart, who drove him off the track, may have been less than appropriately careful when he approached the location of the crashed car in his next lap. Certainly worthy of investigation. If Stewart, with no intent to kill, was behaving "tough" and a little reckless in a show of machismo, he could end up with serious charges regardless of Ward being on the ,
Their must be other pictures, hopefully video to resolve this. But if he is guilty of nothing criminal he sure showed himself to be a grade A a**hole

 

[alfonse]

Looks like he broke his back. His feet where straight up and his head facing down. I don't watch nascar or follow any of this but its a big name and something tragic happened they will take a real close look at it. I expect he will get suspended for a year, something like that. Hard to come up with proof he tried to hit him. I would guess he was trying to scare him though. I am guessing he figured he would get out of the car. Its sad and not to be insensitive but....

Getting out of a car and running out into a race track full of speeding cars on dirt=darwin awards

 

[minidarren]

Go Viagra car, hell ya!

What the hell is a successful NASCAR driver doing messing around on a small side track? The "sport" is a joke.

 

[Jimdish255]

These small tracks love to see big stars come to town. It happens all the time and they do it for love of the sport and to give something back to the fans. Sadly he made a huge and tragic mistake here that could cost him everything.

(PS I posted this in Pro Sports Topic a bit ago)

 

[Dove]

I watched the video and the first thing that got me was I was shocked Stewart actually races go karts. Then I was shocked that the event was videoed as if the fan knew something was coming. Then the idiot, Ward, for walking right into the race!!!

Have no idea what Stewart was thinking or seeing.

 

[superjohn]

Well Stewart was wearing a go pro, so hopefully that was confiscated by police as soon as he came off the track.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Yeah, I saw that reading through the thread. I was actually autocrossing my car today and the consensus from the guys I talked to with a lot of autocross, road course, rally, and ice racing experience is that there was nothing in the video that would lead them to believe that he purposely did it.

Sorry, pal, but we've got a board full if Internet detectives, and we're going to come to ironclad conclusions based on the absolute minimum of evidence, and certainly no relevant expertise.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Go Viagra car, hell ya!

What the hell is a successful NASCAR driver doing messing around on a small side track? The "sport" is a joke.

No kidding. That's as dumb as an NBA player playing in some off-season pick up games in a high school gym.