OT: Tom Brady GOAT

[jayteeman]

Only if there is obvious malicious intent as in what Gronk did in Buffalo

Because what if the defender went low trying to apply a legal hit, and blew out Gronk’s knee? Does he get ejected for that?

I used my phone a friend, and I am gonna say the player does not get ejected for a legal hit.

 

[upstater]

Because what if the defender went low trying to apply a legal hit, and blew out Gronk’s knee? Does he get ejected for that?

There's no penalty for going low. There are penalties for going helmet to helmet, shoulder to helmet, and launching. The college game has it.

And yes, Gronk should have been tossed from that game (although living in Buffalo everyone here knows that White did not go through concussion protocol; he was fine; that got lost in the national story).

Gronk should have been thrown out of the game, and suspended 1 game, because that's what the NFL does.

 

[Rocktheworld]

There's no penalty for going low. There are penalties for going helmet to helmet, shoulder to helmet, and launching. The college game has it.

And yes, Gronk should have been tossed from that game (although living in Buffalo everyone here knows that White did not go through concussion protocol; he was fine; that got lost in the national story).

Gronk should have been thrown out of the game, and suspended 1 game, because that's what the NFL does.

I was responding to a point where an injury inflicted on one player causes the inflictor to be sidelined until the injured player returns. I took it to its next logical step by generalizing it to inadvertent injuries not involving blows to the head.

I personally don’t think there’s any evidence that dude was trying to hurt Gronk. That’s not the kind of player you go for maximum impact on; just as big a chance of you getting hurt as him. If they wanted him out of the game, he would’ve/should’ve gone low

 

[upstater]

I was responding to a point where an injury inflicted on one player causes the inflictor to be sidelined until the injured player returns. I took it to its next logical step by generalizing it to inadvertent injuries not involving blows to the head.

I personally don’t think there’s any evidence that dude was trying to hurt Gronk. That’s not the kind of player you go for maximum impact on; just as big a chance of you getting hurt as him. If they wanted him out of the game, he would’ve/should’ve gone low

I didn't say there was intent. But they all know the rules. Whether you intend it or not, it's a penalty and a possible fine. The celebration for hurting him afterwards though? I don't know if Gronk is that kind of guy, but when Smith-Schuster stood over the notorious Bengal and the Steelers celebrated, it was payback.

 

[jleves]

Here are the last 8 seasons. They're 38-10 against the AFC East. They won the division all 8 years. Got a bye every year and played nothing but home playoff games except for 2 AFC Title games (which they lost both).

If you can't say that the mediocrity of this division hasn't helped their cause, you're either a) not smart or b) making an outright choice to refuse facts, data and logic.

2017 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2016 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2015 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC @Denver)
2014 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2013 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC @Denver)
2012 = 6-0 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC at home against Baltimore)
2011 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2010 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss at home against NY Jets)

So let me blow this entire their division gets them everything.... And I'm not a Pats fan, although I do like them. I'm a Cardinals and NFC fan first and foremost.

2017 NE 5-1 (13-3), Pitt 6-0 (13-3), KC 5-1 (10-6)
2016 NE 5-1 (14-2), KC 6-0 (12-4), Pitt 5-1 (11-5), Texans 5-1 (9-7)
2015 NE 4-2 (12-4), Cin 5-1 (12-4), Hou 5-1 (9-7), Den 4-2 (12-4)
2014 NE 4-2 (12-4), Den 6-0 (12-4), Ind 6-0 (11-5), Pitt 4-2 (11-5)
2013 NE 4-2 (12-4), Ind 6-0 (11-5), Den 5-1 (13-3)
2012 NE 6-0 (12-4), Den 6-0 (13-3)
2011 NE 5-1 (14-2), Balt 6-0 (12-4)
2010 NE 5-1 (14-2), Pitt 5-1 (12-4)

Let me make this more lucid - over the last 8 years, they have the same or worse record in division than 16 other division leaders. Of those 16, they have a better regular season record 10 times and are tied 4 times and behind 2 times.

Bottom line their division does not help them more than any other team in the AFC. Maybe the AFC east sucks year in and year out (partially due to the Patriots beating them) but other teams in the AFC teams benefit from equally sucky or more sucky teams. They have earned most of the byes by beatings teams outside their division more than other AFC teams have beaten teams outside their division.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I didn't say there was intent. But they all know the rules.

Not saying you did; you’re responding to my response to a different kind of comment, in which intent was brought up.

Whether you intend it or not, it's a penalty and a possible fine.

He and I weren’t talking about this.

The celebration for hurting him afterwards though?

Yeah a guy delivering a big hit in a top-level game within a collision sport, where everyone is jacked up already, I’m not shocked.

I don't know if Gronk is that kind of guy, but when Smith-Schuster stood over the notorious Bengal and the Steelers celebrated, it was payback.

Far as I’m concerned, the big doofus had it coming

 

[upstater]

Yeah a guy delivering a big hit in a top-level game within a collision sport, where everyone is jacked up already, I’m not shocked.

The celebration didn't happen immediately. It happened after. After he had been penalized. When he realized Gronk was concussed.

 

[dogfan96]

Then neither Kemba, nor Bazz is a top 5 player in US history.

Nevermind the fact that the position of QB is far more important-results in more wins' than any other single position in sports.

This is false. A great player in basketball has a greater impact on wins/losses than any other in team sports. The QB position is the most glamorous but you can win without an elite QB. You don't win NBA titles without an elite level player. Hell the QB isn't even on the field for half of the game. Terry Bradshaw won 4 Super Bowls and he couldn't carry Dan Marino's or Peyton Manning's jock. Brady will go down as the most decorated QB of all time but he's not the best QB of all time. He's not even the best QB currently playing. If you didn't tell me who the rest of the team is, the division they play in (Brady has gotten a ton of mileage out of the ineptitude of the Bills, Jets, and Dolphins.. 6 games/year against those teams will have you in contention for home field advantage most years), and the coach would be (Belichick is the more irreplaceable piece of that organization.. his gameplanning and personnel decision-making are second to none), I'd rather have Aaron Rodgers all day. Before the league went soft and started tilting everything toward the success of the passing game, Brady was a high-level game manager and the Pats won with great defense and just enough offense.

 

[Deepster]

So let me blow this entire their division gets them everything.... And I'm not a Pats fan, although I do like them. I'm a Cardinals and NFC fan first and foremost.

2017 NE 5-1 (13-3), Pitt 6-0 (13-3), KC 5-1 (10-6)
2016 NE 5-1 (14-2), KC 6-0 (12-4), Pitt 5-1 (11-5), Texans 5-1 (9-7)
2015 NE 4-2 (12-4), Cin 5-1 (12-4), Hou 5-1 (9-7), Den 4-2 (12-4)
2014 NE 4-2 (12-4), Den 6-0 (12-4), Ind 6-0 (11-5), Pitt 4-2 (11-5)
2013 NE 4-2 (12-4), Ind 6-0 (11-5), Den 5-1 (13-3)
2012 NE 6-0 (12-4), Den 6-0 (13-3)
2011 NE 5-1 (14-2), Balt 6-0 (12-4)
2010 NE 5-1 (14-2), Pitt 5-1 (12-4)

Let me make this more lucid - over the last 8 years, they have the same or worse record in division than 16 other division leaders. Of those 16, they have a better regular season record 10 times and are tied 4 times and behind 2 times.

Bottom line their division does not help them more than any other team in the AFC. Maybe the AFC east sucks year in and year out (partially due to the Patriots beating them) but other teams in the AFC teams benefit from equally sucky or more sucky teams. They have earned most of the byes by beatings teams outside their division more than other AFC teams have beaten teams outside their division.

You actually made my point even sronger. I just went back 8 years. In those 8 years, the Patriots won the division every year and demolished their division.

In your cuts, you have KC a couple times, Indy once, Denver here and there, Cincy once. But the Pats did this every single year because their division stinks. Your examples just shows the parity elsewhere outside the AFC East.

 

[boba]

That makes sense. Everyone in my extended family is from Philly. Which is why I was surprised about the Giants fans things. They talk nicer about Satanists than about Giants fans.

That's because Satanists are a better class of people. Indeed, Satanists are people, whereas Giants fans are pond scum.

 

[upstater]

This is false. A great player in basketball has a greater impact on wins/losses than any other in team sports. The QB position is the most glamorous but you can win without an elite QB. You don't win NBA titles without an elite level player. Hell the QB isn't even on the field for half of the game. Terry Bradshaw won 4 Super Bowls and he couldn't carry Dan Marino's or Peyton Manning's jock. Brady will go down as the most decorated QB of all time but he's not the best QB of all time. He's not even the best QB currently playing. If you didn't tell me who the rest of the team is, the division they play in (Brady has gotten a ton of mileage out of the ineptitude of the Bills, Jets, and Dolphins.. 6 games/year against those teams will have you in contention for home field advantage most years), and the coach would be (Belichick is the more irreplaceable piece of that organization.. his gameplanning and personnel decision-making are second to none), I'd rather have Aaron Rodgers all day. Before the league went soft and started tilting everything toward the success of the passing game, Brady was a high-level game manager and the Pats won with great defense and just enough offense.

Read above to see stats refuting your points.

 

[upstater]

You actually made my point even sronger. I just went back 8 years. In those 8 years, the Patriots won the division every year and demolished their division.

In your cuts, you have KC a couple times, Indy once, Denver here and there, Cincy once. But the Pats did this every single year because their division stinks. Your examples just shows the parity elsewhere outside the AFC East.

They have a better record against the teams you listed outside the division. They have a worse record against their stinky division.

I wish the Patriots were in the AFC North. They would have been at home for the two Broncos losses in the AFCCG if they were.

 

[upstater]

This is false. A great player in basketball has a greater impact on wins/losses than any other in team sports. The QB position is the most glamorous but you can win without an elite QB. You don't win NBA titles without an elite level player. Hell the QB isn't even on the field for half of the game. Terry Bradshaw won 4 Super Bowls and he couldn't carry Dan Marino's or Peyton Manning's jock. Brady will go down as the most decorated QB of all time but he's not the best QB of all time. He's not even the best QB currently playing. If you didn't tell me who the rest of the team is, the division they play in (Brady has gotten a ton of mileage out of the ineptitude of the Bills, Jets, and Dolphins.. 6 games/year against those teams will have you in contention for home field advantage most years), and the coach would be (Belichick is the more irreplaceable piece of that organization.. his gameplanning and personnel decision-making are second to none), I'd rather have Aaron Rodgers all day. Before the league went soft and started tilting everything toward the success of the passing game, Brady was a high-level game manager and the Pats won with great defense and just enough offense.

A QB like Brady throws the ball 35 times a game, approximately 35-40% of the games plays.

The equivalency with the NBA can't be measured because you don't need a great PG to win there either, though PG and QB would be the nearest equivalency. It's two totally different sports that can't be compared in this way.

As for Brady being a game manager before the rules were changed because Peyton Manning cried, go back and look at the AFCCG and the Super Bowls. The defense in 2003 for instance gave up a point a minute for the last half of the game. They were a sieve. It was ridiculous. And the clutch kicker missed 2 easy field goals. Brady was slinging the ball all over the field like a maniac, throwing bombs, multiple TDs, 350+ yards, leading is team back from being down 9 points in the 4th qtr. It was the 3rd best performance in Super Bowl history at the time.

Yet people remember it as a dominant defense, though they gave up 29 points in 31 minutes. It's another example of the selective memories and ignorance of what Brady has done.

Brady has played with totally replaceable receiving targets until Gronk came along (he had Moss for one year). He literally played with flotsam one year, Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney. Meanwhile his top competition was playing with 2 Hall of Famers. As for Rodgers, he got destroyed by that same Falcons defense last year that Brady ripped apart for 450 yards. And he didn't have Gronk.

 

[StoweD210]

So let me blow this entire their division gets them everything.... And I'm not a Pats fan, although I do like them. I'm a Cardinals and NFC fan first and foremost.

2017 NE 5-1 (13-3), Pitt 6-0 (13-3), KC 5-1 (10-6)
2016 NE 5-1 (14-2), KC 6-0 (12-4), Pitt 5-1 (11-5), Texans 5-1 (9-7)
2015 NE 4-2 (12-4), Cin 5-1 (12-4), Hou 5-1 (9-7), Den 4-2 (12-4)
2014 NE 4-2 (12-4), Den 6-0 (12-4), Ind 6-0 (11-5), Pitt 4-2 (11-5)
2013 NE 4-2 (12-4), Ind 6-0 (11-5), Den 5-1 (13-3)
2012 NE 6-0 (12-4), Den 6-0 (13-3)
2011 NE 5-1 (14-2), Balt 6-0 (12-4)
2010 NE 5-1 (14-2), Pitt 5-1 (12-4)

Let me make this more lucid - over the last 8 years, they have the same or worse record in division than 16 other division leaders. Of those 16, they have a better regular season record 10 times and are tied 4 times and behind 2 times.

Bottom line their division does not help them more than any other team in the AFC. Maybe the AFC east sucks year in and year out (partially due to the Patriots beating them) but other teams in the AFC teams benefit from equally sucky or more sucky teams. They have earned most of the byes by beatings teams outside their division more than other AFC teams have beaten teams outside their division.

Thanks for taking the time to put that together. To add to this, I saw a table that broke down the occurrences of a team winning 4 games or less in a season by division. Since 2006, there have been 4 teams from the AFCE that have won 4 or fewer games in a season (Jets twice, Dolphins and Bills once each.) Over the same time period, this happened to 9 AFCN teams, 10 from the AFCS and 11 from AFCW.

I think the larger point is that, since this is a message board, nuance is forbidden. If you disagree that the AFCE is the worst division in football history, then you can only be saying it's the best. There is no in between. I guess it would be dull to proclaim that the division is below average or argue if it is the 3rd worst or 4th worst in football.

 

[mauconnfan]

Are you taking about the play immediately after the Gronk head injury? I suggest you watch that play again. Bouye pushed Cooks out of bounds just before he looked back for the ball. The NFL differs from college. The defense does not have the same rights to the ball. That will get called every time.

Every one in studio and on the radio while I traveled (well 90%) to NY Monday night said it was 2 way hand fighting, should have been a no call. But you don't have a bias and these people who coached, played football and talk about all day no a lot less than a Pats fan right 25? LOL , all good I get it. bad call though.

 

[Husky25]

Every one in studio and on the radio while I traveled (well 90%) to NY Monday night said it was 2 way hand fighting, should have been a no call. But you don't have a bias and these people who coached, played football and talk about all day no a lot less than a Pats fan right 25? LOL , all good I get it. bad call though.

Good call or bad call notwithstanding, I said it would be called every time.

Both Jim Nance and Tony Romo acknowledged that Cooks was pushed out of bounds in real time and without the benefit of MMQBing the game ad nauseum.

But yeah, I'd take the word of NY talking heads who have just as strong of a bias against New England if I were you as well. They were saying what you wanted to hear.

 

[Paesano]

Whatever. Brady looks like a goat and gronk is the dumbest piece of meat in the NFL.

 

[intlzncster]

Every one in studio and on the radio while I traveled (well 90%) to NY Monday night said it was 2 way hand fighting, should have been a no call. But you don't have a bias and these people who coached, played football and talk about all day no a lot less than a Pats fan right 25? LOL , all good I get it. bad call though.

Huh, a number I listened to said the opposite or judgement call.

If you go by the rules, the call was correct.

1. Defender did not play the ball. Didn't turn head until last moment.
2. Defender then makes body contact and runs Cooks out of bounds. You have to allow the receiver to run his route. Unless you're playing the ball.
3. The hand fighting is irrelevant as it went both ways and was not part of the call.

Former Head of Officiating for the NFL explains with game footage (go to 38 seconds for relevant bit):

Dean Blandino: Officiating was not the story of either Championship game (VIDEO)

Another former head of officiating Mike Pereira agreed. And he rips officiating all the time.

It actually wasn't a very hard call to make. And I do know for a fact, that if the roles were switched, and it was a Patriots called for defensive pass interference, everyone would have been totally fine with it. Is what it is.

 

[Tenspro2002]

And I do know for a fact, that if the roles were switched, and it was a Patriots called for defensive pass interference, everyone would have been totally fine with it. Is what it is.

If the roles were switched and the Patriots were called for a key DPI penalty, everyone would have been consulting their priest because the end of the world is nigh.

Seriously, can anyone identify one key call that has ever gone against the Patriots?

The entire Brady/Belichick mystique originated with a call that had never been made before or since. Just this year alone you have questionable calls for the Patriots against the Jets, Bills, and Steelers*, and if the score had been closer, probably more would have been made of calls and non-calls against Tennessee as well, not to mention the disparity against Jacksonville.

*The entire AFC playoff picture was re-written on account of this call. Instead of the Patriots as the #2 seed, getting Jacksonville at home and then probably Pittsburgh on the road, they were handed the #1 seed, with Tennessee and Jacksonville at home. Enormous difference imposed by pro-Patriots officiating.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

If the roles were switched and the Patriots were called for a key DPI penalty, everyone would have been consulting their priest because the end of the world is nigh.

Seriously, can anyone identify one key call that has ever gone against the Patriots?

The entire Brady/Belichick mystique originated with a call that had never been made before or since. Just this year alone you have questionable calls for the Patriots against the Jets, Bills, and Steelers*, and if the score had been closer, probably more would have been made of calls and non-calls against Tennessee as well, not to mention the disparity against Jacksonville.

*The entire AFC playoff picture was re-written on account of this call. Instead of the Patriots as the #2 seed, getting Jacksonville at home and then probably Pittsburgh on the road, they were handed the #1 seed, with Tennessee and Jacksonville at home. Enormous difference imposed by pro-Patriots officiating.

Posts like this give me life.

Yes, the league that suspended NE's best player for one quarter of a season, stripped the team of a first round pick, and fined them a million bucks for an absolute non-event is 100% in the tank for the Patriots.

I swear to god, as a Patriots fan, listening to this stuff gives me just about as much pleasure as the wins.

 

[intlzncster]

Seriously, can anyone identify one key call that has ever gone against the Patriots?

The entire Brady/Belichick mystique originated with a call that had never been made before or since.

See this is why no one can take you seriously. The tuck rule call was used AGAINST the Patriots earlier in the SAME season.

The Jets got a tuck rule call for them in the second game of the year vs the Pats. They Jets went on to win the game. Belicheck said after the Oakland game, "I knew what the ruling should have been because we had dealt with that play a little bit earlier in the year on the other side of it."

No one ever does any research with their Pats takes. They just want to invent their narratives.

I remember another against the Jets. It was a new rule RE field goals that was implemented incorrectly; The Jets missed a 50+ yard field goal to win the game. They call unsportsmanlike penalty against the Pats that was incorrectly administered. Gave the Jets 15 yards and they hit the field goal to win the game.

There was the controversial non-call of Luke Kuechly holding Gronk in the endzone on the potential game winning touchdown with little time left. Resulted in an interception. Years later Luke admitted it, ""I might have got away with one there," he said during a conference call on Wednesday. "I'm not even going to act like I didn't. I might have got away with one."

They've had plenty, but no one cares because they win all the time.

 

[StoweD210]

I remember another against the Jets. It was a new rule RE field goals that was implemented incorrectly; The Jets missed a 50+ yard field goal to win the game. They call unsportsmanlike penalty against the Pats that was incorrectly administered. Gave the Jets 15 yards and they hit the field goal to win the game.

There was the controversial non-call of Luke Kuechly holding Gronk in the endzone on the potential game winning touchdown with little time left. Resulted in an interception. Years later Luke admitted it, ""I might have got away with one there," he said during a conference call on Wednesday. "I'm not even going to act like I didn't. I might have got away with one."

They've had plenty, but no one cares because they win all the time.

Ironically, that particular penalty has only been called once, ever, in league history.

 

[jleves]

You actually made my point even sronger. I just went back 8 years. In those 8 years, the Patriots won the division every year and demolished their division.

In your cuts, you have KC a couple times, Indy once, Denver here and there, Cincy once. But the Pats did this every single year because their division stinks. Your examples just shows the parity elsewhere outside the AFC East.

You said they use their division for an easy bye and home field advantage. The stats show otherwise. They use their overall dominance to get the bye and home field advantage. Swap them with the top team in any other AFC division every year and they win that division as well and get the bye and home field advantage every year and with a better record. They consistently beat the top teams in the conference every year. Their conference is not the easy stepping stone you claim.

I'm not sure why you let your agenda get in the way that they are simply the best franchise by far in the Brady era.

 

[Adios]

You actually made my point even sronger. I just went back 8 years. In those 8 years, the Patriots won the division every year and demolished their division.

In your cuts, you have KC a couple times, Indy once, Denver here and there, Cincy once. But the Pats did this every single year because their division stinks. Your examples just shows the parity elsewhere outside the AFC East.

Please forgive us for having Tom Brady. Please? Pretty please?

If the Patriots moved to Hartford and won with Brady there, would that have made you feel better??

 

[intlzncster]

Ironically, that particular penalty has only been called once, ever, in league history.

And just cause we're kinda keeping score, the tuck rule was also applied:

• Redskins vs. Broncos (2005)
• Chiefs vs. Ravens (2011 playoffs)

It was repealed in 2013. It was obviously a stupid rule.