OT: Tom Brady GOAT

[superjohn]

Oh my god, that's what you're talking about?!?! Haha, now that I know, I am laughing at you. Do you realize how pathetic you sound? I guess if you're that pathetic, you don't. Yes, I said AFC Central. That means I don't know anything about football!!!!!

It took you that long to admit it, I posted it like 5 times. It's just a small reason on a long list of reasons why you're an idiot. You argued with a bunch of people telling them how cr@ppy a division that doesn't exist actually is.

This is a start, now can we get you admit Myles Jack isn't a lineman?

 

[upstater]

Yes, creating game tapes is legal but the point is they went through a lot of effort to record from on the field, which was and still is explicitly prohibited.

Illegal as of the memo in 20o6. I'm going to presume the Patriots went into the season not doing it, because they actually called the NFL to address the fact that the Jets were doing right after the memo went out (why would the Patriots call the NFL if they too were doing it)? When the NFL told them they had no problem with it, I'm sure the Patriots then went ahead with it.

 

[upstater]

It took you that long to admit it, I posted it like 5 times. It's just a small reason on a long list of reasons why you're an idiot. You argued with a bunch of people telling them how cr@ppy a division that doesn't exist actually is.

This is a start, now can we get you admit Myles Jack isn't a lineman?

Yes, he is. He is a Hybrid/DL in Jax's scheme. Maybe you're behind the times because he came in as a middle linebacker. But he hasn't played there n quite a while. He is now strongside. And though he drops sometimes, he also plays strongside DE, because that's what Jacksonville does. Watch the game, and learn.

 

[upstater]

It took you that long to admit it, I posted it like 5 times.

I didn't know what you were talking about! Phantom football conference???!! It's not even a conference. It's a division you moron. But if that's what you were so hung up about, it just shows how pathetic you are.

 

[nychuskyfan]

Illegal as of the memo in 20o6. I'm going to presume the Patriots went into the season not doing it, because they actually called the NFL to address the fact that the Jets were doing right after the memo went out (why would the Patriots call the NFL if they too were doing it)? When the NFL told them they had no problem with it, I'm sure the Patriots then went ahead with it.

No. The official rules are the bylaws and game manual. Rules can’t be changed by memo. The 2006 memo was the NFL telling teams that their interpretation of the rules was that you were never allowed to record signals from anywhere, even the press box. Which was a moot point for the Pats since they were taping from the sideline, which was always explicitly prohibited. If your explanation was correct, don’t you think the Pats would’ve fought it like they did Deflategate? The Pats admitted they cheated, you should too.

I think it diminishes 2000-2007 but not the decade since, which has been pretty remarkable. If you disagree about the implications for 2000-2007, that’s reasonable. Or that others may have been doing similar things, that’s reasonable (although I disagree that anyone had such a widespread system). But it’s not reasonable to say they didn’t cheat when they broke a black and white rule about taping on the field and didn’t even fight the stiff penalties.

 

[upstater]

No. The official rules are the bylaws and game manual. Rules can’t be changed by memo. The 2006 memo was the NFL telling teams that their interpretation of the rules was that you were never allowed to record signals from anywhere, even the press box. Which was a moot point for the Pats since they were taping from the sideline, which was always explicitly prohibited. If your explanation was correct, don’t you think the Pats would’ve fought it like they did Deflategate? The Pats admitted they cheated, you should too.

I think it diminishes 2000-2007 but not the decade since, which has been pretty remarkable. If you disagree about the implications for 2000-2007, that’s reasonable. Or that others may have been doing similar things, that’s reasonable (although I disagree that anyone had such a widespread system). But it’s not reasonable to say they didn’t cheat when they broke a black and white rule about taping on the field and didn’t even fight the stiff penalties.

No, the memo highlighted that the videos should not be used during the game. The game manual actually says you have to be in an enclosure (2 walls) to film. It doesn't say you can't film from anywhere.

Anyway, the Patriots didn't admit they cheated. Where did you get that? In fact, last year Belichick contested in during a press conference. It didn't get much notice but he did.

As for who had a widespread system, coaches have already said they had the same system.

The Jets did the same thing and the NFL didn't care. The NFL owners are a special bunch, unity when it comes to PR but behind the scenes they have knives at each others' throats. Take Bountygate and Deflategate, that was driven by the owners. Goodell is just earning a paycheck.

 

[boba]

Here are the last 8 seasons. They're 38-10 against the AFC East. They won the division all 8 years. Got a bye every year and played nothing but home playoff games except for 2 AFC Title games (which they lost both).

If you can't say that the mediocrity of this division hasn't helped their cause, you're either a) not smart or b) making an outright choice to refuse facts, data and logic.

2017 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2016 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2015 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC @Denver)
2014 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2013 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC @Denver)
2012 = 6-0 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC at home against Baltimore)
2011 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2010 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss at home against NY Jets)

Good use of statistics to say practically nothing.
Your argument is the Patriots have an advantage because the division is bad.
Your statistics show the Patriots have an exceptional record against members of their division. Unfortunately that is all they show.
Since the Patriots were division winners each of those years they also played the other division winners, AFC North, South, & West as well as the NFC division on the schedule, so the not winning team only plays 2 division winners (besides the Patriots) Patriots play 4, and the unbalanced schedule is absent from those statistics.
Then there's the other schedules and records. This year the NFC South and AFC East matched up, and iIrc, the AFCE did OK. The NFCS also sent 3 teams to the playoffs, so the overall quality of the play in the AFCE doesn't appear to be too deficient as they compete outside of division play. The records of the AFCE teams those years are absent, and should provide something to bolster your argument because the counter to your narrative is that it is only the Patriots are just better; better than the teams in the AFC, this has been determined by play.
Which is the nub of it. Regardless of division they were placed, they still could/would win the division, and win it handily. Their schedule already includes the division of division winners, the unbalanced schedule that is supposed to be the rectification, and the Patriots just beat the other division winners to earn the bye and home field (KC notwithstanding). You really think Tomlin or Harbaugh want to face the Patriots twice a year? They usually get their chance to take home field or whatever from the Patriots, and somehow it just seems that it doesn't happen, not in Foxborough, not in wherever. Fortune favors the prepared, so whether the lucky play, call, or magic happens, it's fortune bestowing a reward for preparation. Reality is that the Patriots would put a hurting on whomever was in their division, so any division with the Patriots in it gets relegated to mediocrity based on that domination. And if I was at work I could gather some statistics and make a pretty graph to show that to be the case [dot] [dot] [dot] but I'm just a fan, not a fanatic.

 

[nychuskyfan]

No, the memo highlighted that the videos should not be used during the game. The game manual actually says you have to be in an enclosure (2 walls) to film. It doesn't say you can't film from anywhere.

Anyway, the Patriots didn't admit they cheated. Where did you get that? In fact, last year Belichick contested in during a press conference. It didn't get much notice but he did.

As for who had a widespread system, coaches have already said they had the same system.

The Jets did the same thing and the NFL didn't care. The NFL owners are a special bunch, unity when it comes to PR but behind the scenes they have knives at each others' throats. Take Bountygate and Deflategate, that was driven by the owners. Goodell is just earning a paycheck.

Wow, this is really not complicated. Let’s try one more time with links.

Belichick speaks with Goodell, apologizes for videotape flap

Page 105 of the Game Operations manual says: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

The Pats were taping from the sideline as explained in the story below and since the sideline is part of the field and is not enclosed, it was not permitted. Easy. (Spygate to Deflategate: Inside what split the NFL and Patriots apart)

Both articles above also talk about apologies. Kraft apologized to other 31 owners and Belichick to the owners and the press. They also didn’t fight as they did Deflategate. I know a bunch of Pats fans that explain Spygate away by saying others did it, or it didn’t help, which is ridiculous enough. But your refusal to acknowledge they broke the rules after they pleaded guilty is another level of drinking the Kool-Aid.

 

[gtcam]

I'm a Giants fan
I am amazed at all the Patriots haters out there with all the cheating crap, the air pressure pure bs, signal stealing etc. EVERY team cheats in every sport.
The Patriots are going to their 8th Super Bowl - what other team can say that?
If they play in the weakest division (not true) so be it but they also play other teams during the season and the better teams in the playoffs
I am extremely jealous of what they have done and wished Bill B, TB, Gronk and some others played for the Giants.

 

[gtcam]

Wow, this is really not complicated. Let’s try one more time with links.

Belichick speaks with Goodell, apologizes for videotape flap

Page 105 of the Game Operations manual says: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

The Pats were taping from the sideline as explained in the story below and since the sideline is part of the field and is not enclosed, it was not permitted. Easy. (Spygate to Deflategate: Inside what split the NFL and Patriots apart)

Both articles above also talk about apologies. Kraft apologized to other 31 owners and Belichick to the owners and the press. They also didn’t fight as they did Deflategate. I know a bunch of Pats fans that explain Spygate away by saying others did it, or it didn’t help, which is ridiculous enough. But your refusal to acknowledge they broke the rules after they pleaded guilty is another level of drinking the Kool-Aid.

Stop all this crap
It proves nothing
ALL teams cheat in many ways at all times in every sport (especially football and baseball) - if you don't think so you don't know sports

 

[jayteeman]

If you want a good example of cheating, how about trading a 15 yard penalty for an intentional concussion hit to the helmet to remove a formidable weapon.

Every team cheats....Giants had their walkie talkie, spygate, injury faking accusations just like any other team.

Give me a freekin break.

 

[nychuskyfan]

Stop all this crap
It proves nothing
ALL teams cheat in many ways at all times in every sport (especially football and baseball) - if you don't think so you don't know sports

This was an institutionalized system, not something on the margin trying to get a small edge. If you dont think knowing the exact defense an opponent is going to run gives a team a meaningful advantage, then you’re the one who doesn’t know sports.

We got a bit off-topic on the exact rule because people refuse to acknowledge the fact they cheated even though the rule is black and white, they apologized and didn’t fight stiff penalties. I’m not one of these “Brady is on steroids/the AFC East sucks” people - in my OP I said that I think Brady is the GOAT, Deflategate is BS and the last decade post-Spygate has been remarkable. So I’m capable of seeing through my biases. Are you?

 

[upstater]

Wow, this is really not complicated. Let’s try one more time with links.

Belichick speaks with Goodell, apologizes for videotape flap

Page 105 of the Game Operations manual says: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

The Pats were taping from the sideline as explained in the story below and since the sideline is part of the field and is not enclosed, it was not permitted. Easy. (Spygate to Deflategate: Inside what split the NFL and Patriots apart)

Both articles above also talk about apologies. Kraft apologized to other 31 owners and Belichick to the owners and the press. They also didn’t fight as they did Deflategate. I know a bunch of Pats fans that explain Spygate away by saying others did it, or it didn’t help, which is ridiculous enough. But your refusal to acknowledge they broke the rules after they pleaded guilty is another level of drinking the Kool-Aid.

I don't see what the disagreement is. I said the same thing. Can't film from the field or pressbox, but you can film from the booths. So where's the disagreement?

I pointed out that sign stealing isn't illegal. Where you steal signs from is important. And, to top it off, even after the memo which clarified that you couldn't use it during the game, the NFL allowed the Jets to do it, so of course the Patriots resumed.

The so-called Belichick apology is from the same week as the initial incident when everyone thought it was going to be nothing. If you follow the Patriots, you know that Belichick has been contesting what came down. He did it just recently. In the media and at press conferences as well. In fact, if he didn't contest it and admitted it as you say, then why did Goodell call him a liar on national TV several months later? They had just met and Belichick told him what I said to you in my earlier post, and Goodell said he was fined because he didn't believe him. When people bring up Spygate, Belichick contests it to this day.

 

[Paesano]

If you want a good example of cheating, how about trading a 15 yard penalty for an intentional concussion hit to the helmet to remove a formidable weapon.

Every team cheats....Giants had their walkie talkie, spygate, injury faking accusations just like any other team.

Give me a freekin break.

Are you talking about what Gronk did to that poor defenseless Bills player a few weeks ago?

 

[upstater]

Are you talking about what Gronk did to that poor defenseless Bills player a few weeks ago?

And that cost the Patriots a suspension and very likely was responsible for the loss in their next game.

 

[Mots010]

Just be glad Church didn't take the legal hit and go for his knees. Gronk was exposed to getting his legs destroyed there.

 

[upstater]

Just be glad Church didn't take the legal hit and go for his knees. Gronk was exposed to getting his legs destroyed there.

Yup. The thing that everyone noticed though was that Church got flagged for a big penalty, and was then seen celebrating the hit. I think the idea that players protect each other is largely made up. You do earn "bounties" for hurting the opposition. That part of the game is still there. And you can see it on that play.

 

[Husky25]

Yup. The thing that everyone noticed though was that Church got flagged for a big penalty, and was then seen celebrating the hit. I think the idea that players protect each other is largely made up. You do earn "bounties" for hurting the opposition. That part of the game is still there. And you can see it on that play.

I was talking to someone about this last night. The hit was unintentionally intentional. I wonder if an envelope was waiting in Church's locker at the half. The trade-off of 15 yards for your opponent's second most lethal offensive weapon (When they are already missing a top 3 and #1 is also gimpy) is a no-brainer for the 31 teams, including his own.

The NFL should adopt the college targeting rule. Even then, it is a no-brainer tactic.

 

[UConnNick]

He had no control it was the right call, no one could argue that one not a good analogy.

Dude I said a positive thing about Brady then threw a very funny meme in, I'm good they won they're damn good and one coach, who is the best went in at the half and adjusted defensively like he does, great win. Jags put up a fight I enjoyed the game, no skin in it. Now for the only time in history I will root for the Eagles, man that just sounds wrong.

That is so wrong on so many levels, Mau. No self-respecting Giants fan should ever root for the Fleagles, except maybe grudgingly only when they play the Cowboys.

I am perhaps an aberration because I'm a Giants and Pats fan. I have rooted for both since the days of Y.A. Tittle, Andy Robustelli, Babe Parilli and Gino Cappelletti. Andy was a very close friend of the family of one of my best friends in grade school.

I was conflicted during the two SBs. To be honest, I do root for the Giants when they play each other, but I would have been perfectly OK with the Pats winning the first one because I despise those champagne toasting Miami Dolphins from their 1972 team. I cannot wait until somebody shuts those insufferable bores up for good.

 

[TheRealKBuks]

Your Team Cheats - The Definitive Guide to NFL Cheating

I'll just leave this here....

 

[Scoe]

I was talking to someone about this last night. The hit was unintentionally intentional. I wonder if an envelope was waiting in Church's locker at the half. The trade-off of 15 yards for your opponent's second most lethal offensive weapon (When they are already missing a top 3 and #1 is also gimpy) is a no-brainer for the 31 teams, including his own.

The NFL should adopt the college targeting rule. Even then, it is a no-brainer tactic.

It was a clean hit Gronk also could have knocked out Church it was a bang bang play, if Church goes low the play is legal but viewed as dirty. That's on Brady for leading Gronk into that hit.

 

[Deepster]

Good use of statistics to say practically nothing.
Your argument is the Patriots have an advantage because the division is bad.
Your statistics show the Patriots have an exceptional record against members of their division. Unfortunately that is all they show.
Since the Patriots were division winners each of those years they also played the other division winners, AFC North, South, & West as well as the NFC division on the schedule, so the not winning team only plays 2 division winners (besides the Patriots) Patriots play 4, and the unbalanced schedule is absent from those statistics.
Then there's the other schedules and records. This year the NFC South and AFC East matched up, and iIrc, the AFCE did OK. The NFCS also sent 3 teams to the playoffs, so the overall quality of the play in the AFCE doesn't appear to be too deficient as they compete outside of division play. The records of the AFCE teams those years are absent, and should provide something to bolster your argument because the counter to your narrative is that it is only the Patriots are just better; better than the teams in the AFC, this has been determined by play.
Which is the nub of it. Regardless of division they were placed, they still could/would win the division, and win it handily. Their schedule already includes the division of division winners, the unbalanced schedule that is supposed to be the rectification, and the Patriots just beat the other division winners to earn the bye and home field (KC notwithstanding). You really think Tomlin or Harbaugh want to face the Patriots twice a year? They usually get their chance to take home field or whatever from the Patriots, and somehow it just seems that it doesn't happen, not in Foxborough, not in wherever. Fortune favors the prepared, so whether the lucky play, call, or magic happens, it's fortune bestowing a reward for preparation. Reality is that the Patriots would put a hurting on whomever was in their division, so any division with the Patriots in it gets relegated to mediocrity based on that domination. And if I was at work I could gather some statistics and make a pretty graph to show that to be the case [dot] [dot] [dot] but I'm just a fan, not a fanatic.

I said practically nothing?! Then you type out one long run-on sentence with comments like:

"This year the NFC South and AFC East matched up, and iIrc, the AFCE did OK. The NFCS also sent 3 teams to the playoffs, so the overall quality of the play in the AFCE doesn't appear to be too deficient as they compete outside of division play. The records of the AFCE teams those years are absent, and should provide something to bolster your argument because the counter to your narrative is that it is only the Patriots are just better; better than the teams in the AFC, this has been determined by play."?

 

[Husky25]

It was a clean hit Gronk also could have knocked out Church it was a bang bang play, if Church goes low the play is legal but viewed as dirty. That's on Brady for leading Gronk into that hit.

I think it was "pretty f@ king far from ok." Clean hits don't get penalized. It was helmet-to-helmet and Church lined him up from at least 5 yards away (Gronk was on the numbers. Church ran perpendicular from the hashmarks). The clean, legal hit would have been to wrap up Gronk's torso/waist area, but there was a better than average chance that Church bounces off Gronk, like so many DBs do.

Brady threw the ball from his own 34 YL to a spot at which only Gronk could make a play. Pretty pin-point from more than 26 yards upfield.

 

[Scoe]

I think it was "pretty f@ king far from ok." Clean hits don't get penalized. It was helmet-to-helmet and Church lined him up from at least 5 yards away (Gronk was on the numbers. Church ran perpendicular from the hashmarks). The clean, legal hit would have been to wrap up Gronk's torso/waist area, but there was a better than average chance that Church bounces off Gronk, like so many DBs do.

Brady threw the ball from his own 34 YL to a spot at which only Gronk could make a play. Pretty pin-point from more than 26 yards upfield.

Church should be flagged but I dont view it as dirty, he did lead with his shoulder, you can see that he lead with the shoulder it was a bang bang play. I dont think he was trying to hurt Gronk I thought he was just trying to dislodge the ball. Gronk is 6/7 250 what are you supposed to do. You dont have the time to make a picture perfect tackle 8/10 times. Hoping Gronk is good to go for the Super Bowl, its a violent sport things happen no matter how much they try to change the rules.

 

[Husky25]

Church should be flagged but I dont view it as dirty, he did lead with his shoulder, you can see that he lead with the shoulder it was a bang bang play.

The only thing that was bang-bang was Church and the ball arriving at Gronk at virtually the same time. Turning at the last second was self-preservation on Church's part. The replay I posted does not do it justice.

Try this one:


If the hit was truly dirty in the NFL sense, Church should have been ejected. The NFL does not have the equivalent of the NCAA Targeting penalty. It still begs the question whether the play was unintentionally intentional.