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OT: Thursday at 9 a.m., the Freeh Report is available. . .

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JS

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As everyone slams these "enablers" left, right and sideways, I just wish folks would realize that, in spite of all the "motives" implied, a portion of the truth it seems to me is simply that "they" never realized the extent of the evil. Partly because they didn't want to, I'm sure. * * * It doesn't make their actions / inactions any better. But it is a perspective that does factor in.
Yep. That's where I come down when I try to imagine what was going on in their heads. They told themselves he'd stop after being informed he wouldn't be head football coach but could hang around as a retiree if he behaved himself. Then they told themselves he'd stop after being banned from the football facility and told to get counseling.

But they didn't realize what they were dealing with -- that he couldn't stop, that he was compulsive, that he wouldn't follow through on any promise to "reform," that he needed to be totally and forcibly removed from the opportunity.

And they didn't want, apparently, even to imagine the details of the horror he was inflicting. So it seems they simply blotted that out and, as Freeh said, showed no willingness to identify the victims and find out those details -- which would've required Sandusky's cooperation and, even if they could get it, been an awkward exercise to be sure.

A moral failing? Yes. Does it make them extraordinary or inhuman? No. But do the crime, serve the time.
 
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Yep. That's where I come down when I try to imagine what was going on in their heads. They told themselves he'd stop after being informed he wouldn't be head football coach but could hang around as a retiree if he behaved himself. Then they told themselves he'd stop after being banned from the football facility and told to get counseling.

But they didn't realize what they were dealing with -- that he couldn't stop, that he was compulsive, that he wouldn't follow through on any promise to "reform," that he needed to be totally and forcibly removed from the opportunity.

And they didn't want, apparently, even to imagine the details of the horror he was inflicting. So it seems they simply blotted that out and, as Freeh said, showed no willingness to identify the victims and find out those details -- which would've required Sandusky's cooperation and, even if they could get it, been an awkward exercise to be sure.

A moral failing? Yes. Does it make them extraordinary or inhuman? No. But do the crime, serve the time.

I would like to think that a woman athletic administrator, school admin, or policewomen, would have acted differently, to think of the victim before themselves, Sandusky, JoePa, or football program.

Money doesn't heal wounds, but I hope each victim gets a BOAT load of money from PSU.
 

Icebear

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I would like to think that a woman athletic administrator, school admin, or policewomen, would have acted differently, to think of the victim before themselves, Sandusky, JoePa, or football program.

Money doesn't heal wounds, but I hope each victim gets a BOAT load of money from PSU.

That is as unlikely as the men doing. Children who are sexually abused often have more anger at mothers who "should have stopped it." Mrs. Sandusky herself lived in the house with it and either couldn't admit it or lived in deep emotional denial. Youth and Family Services workers see it time and time again that men and women who the outside world thinks should have known and should have done something never see it or at least never take action. Percentages are slightly better for women in some circumstances but most often not significantly.
 
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That is as unlikely as the men doing. Children who are sexually abused often have more anger at mothers who "should have stopped it." Mrs. Sandusky herself lived in the house with it and either couldn't admit it or lived in deep emotional denial. Youth and Family Services workers see it time and time again that men and women who the outside world thinks should have known and should have done something never see it or at least never take action. Percentages are slightly better for women in some circumstances but most often not significantly.

I'm not talking about the mothers of the victims or Mrs. Sandusky, but a woman official at the school or police dept.
 

Icebear

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I'm not talking about the mothers of the victims or Mrs. Sandusky, but a woman official at the school or police dept.
Women and men professionals both only report sexual abuse when they are trained properly. Training is the highest indicator of the likelihood of reporting. Most people just don't see it or don't believe it.

Educators are actually the most likely to report child sexual abuse.

In 2002, 56% of reports of alleged child abuse and neglect were made by professionals. The remaining 44% were made by parents, relatives, friends, alleged victims, alleged perpetrators, and anonymous callers. The largest percentage (16.1%) of professional reports were made by educational personnel, followed by legal and law enforcement personnel (15.7%), and social services personnel (12.6%). Medical personnel reports accounted for only 7.8% of professional reports (United States Department of Health and Human Services [US DHHS], 2004).

http://www.slmda.org/artman/uploads/c_ah_-_child_protection_-_child__abuse_-_hcp_looking_away.doc
 
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Women and men professionals both only report sexual abuse when they are trained properly. Training is the highest indicator of the likelihood of reporting. Most people just don't see it or don't believe it.

Educators are actually the most likely to report child sexual abuse.

In 2002, 56% of reports of alleged child abuse and neglect were made by professionals. The remaining 44% were made by parents, relatives, friends, alleged victims, alleged perpetrators, and anonymous callers. The largest percentage (16.1%) of professional reports were made by educational personnel, followed by legal and law enforcement personnel (15.7%), and social services personnel (12.6%). Medical personnel reports accounted for only 7.8% of professional reports (United States Department of Health and Human Services [US DHHS], 2004).

http://www.slmda.org/artman/uploads/c_ah_-_child_protection_-_child__abuse_-_hcp_looking_away.doc

thanks Icebear for the stats. I have a lot of experience in this area, not as a professional, but have seen too much of it, sadly. So, that was my pt, that a woman educator (AD or school admin) or trained policewoman, maybe (I hope and think) would have asked more questions regarding the victim. I read the entire report and didn't see many women, except enablers like Mrs. Sandusky and Mrs. Paterno.
 

msf22b

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The Philadelphia Inquirer is staying on the case.

Two stories this morning focus on the much discussed potential liability of 100M and more interesting, the culpability of the Governor and his go-slow investigation and possible conflicts. It appears that few defense lawyers appear interested in settlement, but rather will demand discovery resulting in the drip, drip, drip of added negative evidence that will color the University for years to come.

IMHO, Perhaps the only way to damp this down is to offer all known victims a quick, above-market settlement (say 12.5 M each) and hope that more victims (anticipated) don't come out of the woodwork.
 
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The Philadelphia Inquirer is staying on the case.

Two stories this morning focus on the much discussed potential liability of 100M and more interesting, the culpability of the Governor and his go-slow investigation and possible conflicts. It appears that few defense lawyers appear interested in settlement, but rather will demand discovery resulting in the drip, drip, drip of added negative evidence that will color the University for years to come.

IMHO, Perhaps the only way to damp this down is to offer all known victims a quick, above-market settlement (say 12.5 M each) and hope that more victims (anticipated) don't come out of the woodwork.


Quick, lucrative settlements will bring people out of the woodwork...
 

Kibitzer

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When I started this thread, it was on the eve of the publication of the definitive Freeh report. I stated then that I thought it to be "a bad sign that the Paterno family was discrediting it in advance [of publication]."

The more I hear and read, the more I am astonished at the utter effrontery and sense of entitlement by the Paterno family, including Joe himself before he died.
  • As the wagons were circling on the Sandusky affair, Joe sought and got a $3 million payoff and forgiveness of some $300,000+ in loans.
  • The family sought (and was denied) a luxury box at football games, right next to the president's, for 25 years, plus use of the PSU private plane.
I heard this morning (not yet verified) that there was a time when the PSU administration actually wanted to rename Beaver Stadium and call it Paterno Stadium, but the family did not approve!

Now, the trustees seem to be having difficulty deciding what to do about the Paterno statue. Apparently they are serious in their expectation that all will eventually simply be forgiven, forgotten, or both.

I could not make this stuff up.

As Mark Twain pointed out, fiction writers are constrained to write only about reasonable possibilities, but historians and journalists are not similarly limited.
 

Ozzie Nelson

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Ten-Fourteen years was "enough time" to “really” understand what was going on. The cover up was done in order protect Penn State interests, which did not include victims.

Simple and naked truth, as I see it.
 

JS

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Ten-Fourteen years was "enough time" to “really” understand what was going on. The cover up was done in order protect Penn State interests, which did not include victims.

Simple and naked truth, as I see it.
Maybe longer.

Police are aware of three men who say they were abused in the 1970s or 1980s by now ex-Penn State football assistant coach Jerry Sandusky, CNN contributor Sara Ganim reports for the Harrisburg Patriot News.

The allegations are the first to involve claims of abuse by the coach before the 1990s. During Sandusky's child rape trial, his defense argued that it is rare for someone to suddenly become a pedophile in their later years.

Nice argument for the defense. "He wouldn't have just suddenly started doing it in his later years. Therefore he probably didn't."

The first sentence, at least, is quite plausible. The second didn't work out so well with the jury.
 

arty155

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... that was my pt, that a woman educator (AD or school admin) or trained policewoman, maybe (I hope and think) would have asked more questions regarding the victim...

Of course, you’re not referring to yet another ‘woman educator’ like the teachers we continue to read about preying sexually on our children in schools.
My impression is neither gender, race, ethnic-ancestry, nor an adult’s age distinguishes those among us possessing the decency, professionalism and courage indicating who ‘would have asked more questions.’ So far, both the most inspiring and the most despicable behavior I’ve observed personally, professionally, and even in the news… seems pretty well spread out in our society - including gender. Certainly everyone’s breadth of observation and point of view differs, often explaining honest differences in conclusions.
 
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Of course, you’re not referring to yet another ‘woman educator’ like the teachers we continue to read about preying sexually on our children in schools.
My impression is neither gender, race, ethnic-ancestry, nor an adult’s age distinguishes those among us possessing the decency, professionalism and courage indicating who ‘would have asked more questions.’ So far, both the most inspiring and the most despicable behavior I’ve observed personally, professionally, and even in the news… seems pretty well spread out in our society - including gender. Certainly everyone’s breadth of observation and point of view differs, often explaining honest differences in conclusions.

Sure, there are men and women who prey on kids in our society. I simply pondered the possibility that a woman leader may have asked more questions about the victim (and victim's mom in 1998) because the people involved in the discussion what to do with Jerry.... were all men.
 

arty155

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Ten-Fourteen years was "enough time" to “really” understand what was going on. The cover up was done in order protect Penn State interests (and protecting careers of those who chose to remain too quiet, at every level), which did not include victims...

"If you walk by a problem you can influence, you are part of the problem"
 

arty155

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Sure, there are men and women who prey on kids in our society. I simply pondered the possibility that a woman leader may have asked more questions about the victim (and victim's mom in 1998) because the people involved in the discussion what to do with Jerry.... were all men.

- Thanks for responding, CF. Enjoy your posts here regarding my favorite UConn rival.

- I somehow thought beyond the pondering and hope, you'd also maintained a policewoman and AD/admin would indeed be more likely to act because of their gender - "... ( I hope and think) would have asked more questions..." My mistake; I likely went way overboard again, and this particular time because…

- As a rhetorical question, I think it’s not only a good one, but a particularly important one. That is, you definitely would not be alone raising this, if the victims PS failed to protect were girls.

- So while I don’t think gender helps a Selection Board divining the ethics of an individual leader (at one time, Joe Paterno and Darleen Druyu probably seemed perfect), my instinct is diversity nevertheless can be both realistic to maintain and a positive influence applied to a whole Board’s membership.

- I can’t find anything positive yet in The Freech Report about performance by the men and women on this Board of Trustees... If there really is any learning taking place at that level of the University, I would hope they ponder establishing their own Membership position(s) paid, responsible, and accountable for regularly reviewing the complete blotter and all other official issues related to campus law enforcement… instead of relying on the President alone to finally admit he has serious problems . If they formed a Board with their head in the game, begin regularly conducting due diligence in the collection of ‘leading indicators’ of financial and criminal problems from sources beyond just the leaders they supervise… then I think the women and men of diverse backgrounds on a competent Board could, and probably would, begin to do their job… including properly expressing moral indignation, and taking action, in a timely manner in matters like this.
 

msf22b

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I really think that eventually, the trustee's will go.
 

Icebear

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Nor should the trustees, the governor, members of the Board of Second Mile and local police and legal services get off the hook, too. My concern is for the process by which these things can be addressed and corrected. There are many people who have been terribly harmed by this and many more will be terribly harmed by this in the future depending on how the situation is dealt with. Huge changes must be made and procedures brought into place that make the present reality all but impossible to reoccur. However, it is naive to believe that can be done in any absolute sense.

Consider how it has been all but impossible to reform the Roman Catholic Church and the endemic institutional neglect to address these very same issues where similarly protecting the institution was deemed more important than protecting the victims. The number involved at all levels within the RCA, victims, priests, and administrators dwarfs the scale of the events at PSU and has been known for decades and yet we keep hearing of new nightmares in different places. Consider how little visible change has occurred.

In my denomination we strongly encourage today that all people working directly with children have background searches and be cleared for such contact. Do you how hard that is to convince congregational boards to move on such suggestions? The innertia is huge, it is like sweeping boulders with whisk brooms.

In rural PA, an area still struggling to recover from the events of 2008 and the ongoing recession, the economic impact of an NCAA death penalty for the football program will be devastating, not simply to Penn State but to the dozens of small venders who sell pretzels, ice cream, and many other goods surrounding the games. As it impacts those venders it will impact their families and their children. It will impact the hotels and restaurants up and down the 322 cooridor where fans stay and eat as they travel to and from the games. It will lessen the dollars for women's sports like basketball, soccer and volleyball. Some men's and women's sports will likely be completely cut and eliminated but it won't be football which even with a death penalty will be rebuilt because in America today that is where the money is. It will impact the whole geographic region economically. It will lessen the tax base and even lead to reductions in staffing county government including the offices of Youth and Family Services who are charged with the responsibility of keeping our children safe at the very time when we need to strengthen that work.

It will affect both Penn State fans and those people who have always hated PSU. You would be surprised how many folks are in that category.

None of that is to say that decisions and punishments must not be made but knee jerk and reactionary responses built on emotion run the risk of doing tremendous harm to thousands and tens of thousands of people who never knew anything while doing nothing to actually secure the future safety of our kids. What must be done must be done carefully and deliberately or else the number of innocent victims will be expanded exponentially not by the evil of Jerry Sandusky but by the well intended onlookers who do not live with the problem every day because they do not know the families and kids who have been hurt. The good people of the central valleys of PA deserve the opportunity to set their own house in order now that they know the truth of what went on at PSU. If they don't want to fix the problem then no amount of punishment from outside will ever solve it. I know these people and I believe they are very capable of solving what is for them a personal affront to their most personal core values.

There is, also, an opportunity in all of this. There is an opportunity to learn how to put together a quality system of checks and balances that insures that no one has the power to be above the system ever again. Since training is the greatest predictor of the likelihood to report Penn State can install a broad system of training of exactly how to idenify potential predators and abusers like Jerry Sandusky and exactly how to report any suspicions and to whom to report them and how to properly follow up when one has cause to believe nothing is happening with the report. Penn State now has the opportunity to resolve how to stop such abuses immediately in a way that has even escaped the RCA which has the unenviable reality of being a global organization with millions involved. And in doing this what is learned at Penn State can help communities everywhere by becoming a model of how to do it the right way and to look the problem straight on.

Rather than rushing to decisions I believe the best path for the NCAA would be to put PSU on probation for 5 or even ten years with specific review dates for establishing a plan of action for review by the best professionals in the field, the establisment of a Chair of Child Protection study, plus intermediate reports dates to ensure compliance with set goals for training all staff are being met, and the establishment of a process by which what is learned here can be shared across the region and all of the NCAA. A decision like that by the NCAA could be something that benefits all of us no matter where we live and a huge step forward in the battle against child sexual abuse.
 

grizz36

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I like what you have to say, Padre, but the cynic in me says, "Good luck trying to implement such rational goals".
 
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Nor should the trustees, the governor, members of the Board of Second Mile and local police and legal services get off the hook, too. My concern is for the process by which these things can be addressed and corrected. There are many people who have been terribly harmed by this and many more will be terribly harmed by this in the future depending on how the situation is dealt with. Huge changes must be made and procedures brought into place that make the present reality all but impossible to reoccur. However, it is naive to believe that can be done in any absolute sense.

Consider how it has been all but impossible to reform the Roman Catholic Church and the endemic institutional neglect to address these very same issues where similarly protecting the institution was deemed more important than protecting the victims. The number involved at all levels within the RCA, victims, priests, and administrators dwarfs the scale of the events at PSU and has been known for decades and yet we keep hearing of new nightmares in different places. Consider how little visible change has occurred.

In my denomination we strongly encourage today that all people working directly with children have background searches and be cleared for such contact. Do you how hard that is to convince congregational boards to move on such suggestions? The innertia is huge, it is like sweeping boulders with whisk brooms.

In rural PA, an area still struggling to recover from the events of 2008 and the ongoing recession, the economic impact of an NCAA death penalty for the football program will be devastating, not simply to Penn State but to the dozens of small venders who sell pretzels, ice cream, and many other goods surrounding the games. As it impacts those venders it will impact their families and their children. It will impact the hotels and restaurants up and down the 322 cooridor where fans stay and eat as they travel to and from the games. It will lessen the dollars for women's sports like basketball, soccer and volleyball. Some men's and women's sports will likely be completely cut and eliminated but it won't be football which even with a death penalty will be rebuilt because in America today that is where the money is. It will impact the whole geographic region economically. It will lessen the tax base and even lead to reductions in staffing county government including the offices of Youth and Family Services who are charged with the responsibility of keeping our children safe at the very time when we need to strengthen that work.

It will affect both Penn State fans and those people who have always hated PSU. You would be surprised how many folks are in that category.

None of that is to say that decisions and punishments must not be made but knee jerk and reactionary responses built on emotion run the risk of doing tremendous harm to thousands and tens of thousands of people who never knew anything while doing nothing to actually secure the future safety of our kids. What must be done must be done carefully and deliberately or else the number of innocent victims will be expanded exponentially not by the evil of Jerry Sandusky but by the well intended onlookers who do not live with the problem every day because they do not know the families and kids who have been hurt. The good people of the central valleys of PA deserve the opportunity to set their own house in order now that they know the truth of what went on at PSU. If they don't want to fix the problem then no amount of punishment from outside will ever solve it. I know these people and I believe they are very capable of solving what is for them a personal affront to their most personal core values.

There is, also, an opportunity in all of this. There is an opportunity to learn how to put together a quality system of checks and balances that insures that no one has the power to be above the system ever again. Since training is the greatest predictor of the likelihood to report Penn State can install a broad system of training of exactly how to idenify potential predators and abusers like Jerry Sandusky and exactly how to report any suspicions and to whom to report them and how to properly follow up when one has cause to believe nothing is happening with the report. Penn State now has the opportunity to resolve how to stop such abuses immediately in a way that has even escaped the RCA which has the unenviable reality of being a global organization with millions involved. And in doing this what is learned at Penn State can help communities everywhere by becoming a model of how to do it the right way and to look the problem straight on.

Rather than rushing to decisions I believe the best path for the NCAA would be to put PSU on probation for 5 or even ten years with specific review dates for establishing a plan of action for review by the best professionals in the field, the establisment of a Chair of Child Protection study, plus intermediate reports dates to ensure compliance with set goals for training all staff are being met, and the establishment of a process by which what is learned here can be shared across the region and all of the NCAA. A decision like that by the NCAA could be something that benefits all of us no matter where we live and a huge step forward in the battle against child sexual abuse.

As always, the voice of reason...hopefully the Trustees and the principals will accept some responsibility for this situation in a way that gets everyone to put down the torches and pitchforks...

If only the Catholic Church had been wise enough to do so...
 

msf22b

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Icebear's analysis is rational, wise and considered; a magnificent reasoned solution which should garner support.
But it is also Utopian and herein lies the problem.

Important decisions in this country, especially in this time but perhaps back to the founders (read Ellis)
are essentially emotional and/or political.
  • One can see it in the board's steadfast refusal to resign and in their limp pronouncements.
  • One can see it in the reaction of the Paterno family and the former president; 'twasn't me!
  • One can see it in the Governors' absolute refusal to even discuss his role....and on and on.
My instincts tell me that when the appropriate committee of the NCAA meets, they will not for a split second take into consideration the collateral damage that they will inflict to the surrounding community; but you can bet that they will debate for hours on the potential losses to other institutions under their jurisdiction.

Their political problem is that if they do nothing earth-shattering, the public will think of them as useless, out of touch wimps (which they indeed are).

For the rest; the Board, the Foundation (or what remains), the Governor, the Police.... they are praying that somehow it will all quietly go away; which it won't, not for years; we haven't heard anything yet!

I do not anticipate the reforms and checks and balances that Ice proposed; look at the Catholic Church; very little accomplished.

You would never know it...but I always thought of myself as a Utopian too (news to Doggy) but in this case, I fully expect a rush to justice and much more extraordinarily bad news.

Sorry...
 
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