OT: Thursday at 9 a.m., the Freeh Report is available. . .

[msf22b]

When we speak of the Culture of Penn State and in the aftermath of this extraordinary debacle. how fast we forget that the same symptoms; from the Joe Pa's indifference, to the Athletic Director's and President's avoidance of honest decision making, to the boards lack of oversight, indeed total passivity in the face of repeated protests, accusations, even a lawsuit.

No, I am not speaking of the Sandusky affair but that of Renee Portland.

But Mechelle didn't forget... when Sandusky was indicted she wrote:

To me, the almost casual way Penn State handled its defense and support of Portland throughout her career signaled that the school didn't take any allegations against her very seriously. What I wrote in October 2006 reflected the frustration many outside observers had about the school's attitude regarding complaints about Portland: It took a quarter-century of people not speaking out, or looking the other way, or rationalizing that led to Portland having complete belief in her dictatorial power.

So what is the answer to the problem at Penn State; the NCAA was cowardly in avoiding taking sides in that previous matter; should they avoid involvement now? Or is the whole athletic establishment and atmosphere so sick (I am reminded of the concept of the military, Industrial complex), that it warrants a total shutdown of all programs and rethinking alongside a new Board and Administration.

There are no perfect answers as Ice has made eloquently clear.

But the utopian in me dreams that this horrific incident spurs a total reconsideration of the place of athletics in our Public Universities and the adoption of a new code based on good, old-fashioned amateurism and the re-emegence of the scholar-athlete of the sort that Tara, Geno, Pat and Muffit have advocated.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I'm not familiar with Renee Portland - do you have a good link?

FYI: Utopia is the equivalent of heaven to me. Heaven, hell, purgatory. Assurance of salvation, despair, fear. All the same. I'm sure Icebear would agree.

 

[msf22b]

Carl, you can start with the article I quoted: http://espn.go.com/womens-college-b...tate-nittany-lions-again-deficient-leadership

But just Google her name and Penn State and the whole sad, familiar story comes up

 

[SubbaBub]

Carl, you can start with the article I quoted: http://espn.go.com/womens-college-b...tate-nittany-lions-again-deficient-leadership

But just Google her name and Penn State and the whole sad, familiar story comes up

Like I and others have said, it's not a FB problem.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Carl Spackler]

Carl, you can start with the article I quoted: http://espn.go.com/womens-college-b...tate-nittany-lions-again-deficient-leadership

But just Google her name and Penn State and the whole sad, familiar story comes up

OMFG!! This is for real folks. THat culture at PSU is fubar. Absolute power corrupted to the core.

I apologize to the all lady huskies fans, I'm really not a close follower of lady's hoops. I enjoy seeing the successes, and the banners hanging in the gyms on campus and at the civic center, but I confess to my sin. I really don't follow closely.

Goodness sakes, how many more things have to come to the surface in teh pool of knowledg, for it to become clear to everyone that change of this PSU culture is not going to come from within, internally?

We all seem to agree that change is necessary - it's a question of where it comes from, external influence or internally?

It's got to be an external source of pressure, influence to create change in that culture I think, as each day passes, as I gather more information, it's crystal clear.

THe only question is how that external pressure is applied. What targets you select and how you're going to influence those targets.

My target is the PSU alumni, and all the voting population of PA that are the people that would be affected by shutting down all home football games for the fall. Good lord, one year might not be enough, icebear is probably right, shutting down football home games for only one season would only anger the people in charge and make the corruption stronger.

I do not believe that creating change through non-forceful methods is the best course of action. I do believe this is one of those situations where the exertion of force to inflict damage is necessary.

It's realm of decision making, that many people, simply are not willing to go into, because of their feelings about the collateral damage.

But, when it comes to being in position of power over others, this type of decision making, is reality. So you better know what you're doing, and better not be acting foolishly, reactive, emotional...

Like the NCAA did with SMU in 1986.

In the case of the military, if you're oging to take that action, and innocent people will be put in harms way, you better be damn sure you've got good intelligence and are choosing your targets well, to create the most impact, with the least amount of collateral damage (although there are times, as indicated in history, when collateral damage - is indeed the desired outcome)

I believe that to be the case, here in this socio-economic, cultural situation. It's not about life and death. People won't die because they can't make money off of 8 football games in the fall. But the target, all those fans, all those people that will be economically impacted, will be motivated to make the necessary changes from within, from teh ground up.

 

[Icebear]

I'm not familiar with Renee Portland - do you have a good link?

FYI: Utopia is the equivalent of heaven to me. Heaven, hell, purgatory. Assurance of salvation, despair, fear. All the same. I'm sure Icebear would agree.

Never was a utopian, too much of a realist for that and besides Lutheran theology doesn't support the idea of humans having any ability to build the kingdom of God. We leave that to the Christian Dominionists. We are all saints and sinners, you know. Utopianism bears a certain expectation that you and I create or build Utopia.

The realist in me recognizes that we cannot build perfect systems and that the Jerry Sanduskys of the world will always lie close at hand. Truth is that if 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys has been sexually abused then all of us have numerous abusers in and around our lives. All of us are blind to who they are. That is why I have a great distaste for those who get high and mighty about it couldn't happen here and we need to stop those bastards.

That present reality of child sexual abuse in CT, as well as, here in PA is one of the reasons I despise the suggestion of a death penalty for PSU football or even the university in your broader destroy the community imaging. Doing something like that will do nothing to alter the reality and the forces that lead to child sexual abuse. Mostly what it does is soothes our own conscience (a selfish and meaningless endeavor) that we have done something and shown all those evil people. One problem they aren't evil people except in the sense of original sin and with that is our mark let us all just stay home until we can blow the whole world away.

Blowing all the world away doesn't solve the problem because the problem is within us. That is the exact point of the Noah story. God wipes out the world except for the one family God finds to be his joy and obedient to his will and no sooner does the first crop of grapes come in after the flood has receded and Noah is found naked and drunk in his tent and a judgment falls on Ham and his descendants because he sees his father naked. And the story of humanity doesn't get any better going forward from there.

 

[Icebear]

Carl, you may think that force creates greater change and quicker but Gandhi, King, and Jesus of Nazareth would broadly reject you assertion that it will be healthy or enduring.

Having been in and around the issues at PSU and having counseled a number of folks who suffered under Portland I can say to you that change, real change is possible without violence but it takes clear and direct punishment of the guilty. If the punishment is not focused on the proper targets then no sense of justice will emerge only distrust and with distrust the problem will only repeat itself. At PSU or somewhere else. Who will ever report someone for behavior like Sandusky if they believe doing so will destroy their whole world.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Never was a utopian, too much of a realist for that and besides Lutheran theology doesn't support the idea of humans having any ability to build the kingdom of God. We are all saints and sinners, you know. Utopia bears a certain expectation that you and I create or build Utopia.

The realist in me recognizes that we cannot build perfect systems and that the Jerry Sanduskys of the world will always lie close at hand. Truth is that if 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys has been sexually abused then all of us have numerous abusers in and around our lives. All of us are blind to who they are.

That reality that in CT, as well as, here in PA is one of the reasons I despise the suggestion of a death penalty for PSU football or even the university in your broader destroy the community imaging. Doing something like that will do nothing to alter the reality and the forces that lead to child sexual abuse. Mostly what it does is soothes our own conscience (a selfish and meaningless endeavor) that we have done something and shown all those evil people. One problem they aren't evil people except in the sense of original sin and with that is our mark let us all just stay home until we can blow the whole world away.

Blowing all the world away doesn't solve the problem because the problem is within us. That is the exact point of the Noah story. God wipes out the world except for the one family God finds to be his joy and obedient to his will and no sooner does the first crop of grapes come in and Noah is naked and drunk in his tent and a judgment falls on Ham and his descendants because he sees his father naked. And the story of humanity doesn't get any better going forward from there.

I don't believe that anywhere in my discussion, I've said that my analysis involves any measure that would prevent future child abuse. I believe I've actually said the contrary in at least one post back here. Nothing I'm writing is meant to be a measure to prevent future child abuse.

 

[Icebear]

Then what were your comments about threat deterrence?

 

[msf22b]

Ice, I'm with you until original sin; sorry, just don't buy into that.
But it is undoubtedly true that the supervision of Penn State Athletics was deficient.
It may yet turn out that other aspects of the University were handled as cavalierly.
Ultimately, I find myself with you in opposition to the "death penalty."
But the people in charge must be held to the strictest accountability from this moment on.

 

[msf22b]

Without comment.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf-...te-players-transfer-without-restrictions.html

 

[Carl Spackler]

Carl, you may think that force creates greater change and quicker but Gandhi, King, and Jesus of Nazareth would broadly reject you assertion that it will be healthy or enduring.

Having been in and around the issues at PSU and having counseled a number of folks who suffered under Portland I can say to you that change, real change is possible without violence but it takes clear and direct punishment of the guilty. If the punishment is not focused on the proper targets then no sense of justice will emerge only distrust and with distrust the problem will only repeat itself. At PSU or somewhere else. Who will ever report someone for behavior like Sandusky if they believe doing so will destroy their whole world.

I've never read Ghandi's biography, but I'll go with your assertion there as right on, because I am familiar with King, and I have read Jesus of Nazareth's biography. None of those three are in position of influence over the culture of PSU though.

To me, it's a simple matter of the citizens of the PSU culture, to take up arms and become what one of my mentors defines as a citizen warrior, (in the metaphorical sense, the pen is mightier than the sword, and the power to vote and hold your leadership accountable for their actions, in creating a culture worth defending. You might have a different label for it, but the concept is most likely the same.

I think we agree that change is warranted, and that pressure must be exerted somehow to create it.

Where we clearly differ is how we would motivate that change, where, and how that pressure would come.

You have much more faith in humanity, in an entire cultures, to do the right things, than I do. A product of life's experiences I suppose.

I will go back now and address some of things you wrote back to me initially. It should make for an interesting day!

 

[Icebear]

Ice, I'm with you until original sin; sorry, just don't buy into that.
But it is undoubtedly true that the supervision of Penn State Athletics was deficient.
It may yet turn out that other aspects of the University were handled as cavalierly.
Ultimately, I find myself with you in opposition to the "death penalty."
But the people in charge must be held to the strictest accountability from this moment on.

Original sin in Lutheran understanding is the self-centeredness that we all enter the world bearing. From the moment of birth a child's nature is demand and securing attention for self and one's needs or desires as life. Mom feed me, mom change me, mom hold me. From the beginning a child has no sense of other. Bill Cosby tells a great story about about one of his children wanting a cookie before dinner and Cosby told him, "no." Five minutes later the child is back as asks again and Cosby again refuses because it will be supper time soon. Another five minutes and the child tries yet again. Cosby gives a stern warning this last time and that seems to be the end of it. Except ten minutes later and Cosby recognizes there is too much silence in the house and he goes looking for the child. He finds the child in the kitchen with a chair pushed against the counter and the phone book on the counter with the cabinet door open, hand in the cookie jar on the top shelf. Suddenly the child realizes that Cosby is watching and withdrawing her hand with the cookie looks at him and says, "I got a cookie FOR YOU." in that fraction of a second the child's self-interest shifted from "my" desire for a treat to "my" desire to avoid suffering. And that is the best story about original sin that I have ever heard. Sin is simply turning away from what is good for our relationship with God and neighbor and towards our personal desires and will. This self centered sin is what leads us to sin by what we have done like Sandusky and what we have left undone like Curley and Schultz.

 

[pap49cba]

Long article on the trustees...

 

[Carl Spackler]

Then what were your comments about threat deterrence?

It was an abstract. Popped in my head last night. Threat deterrance, meant defense by threat of aggression. Security from attack, because the result of attack would be so awful that you simply don't choose to take a certain course of action. I got called immediately on it that the NCAA has no teeth currently (but that can change)

It was simply meant as a potential to reach common ground. I don't think that's possible, we will differ, although you haven't really answered me yet, regarding the question I asked if you think that the principle of never harming any innocent people is an absolute. (not sure how I exactly worded it - have to read back)

Burke's orginal plan for threat deterrance, was a finite model. Meaning that the U.S. would have X number of submarines, with nuclear weapons on board, and the ability to strike Y number of targets. Everybody on all sides would know the submarines were there, and everybody would know how many targets they could hit, and not only that, - what targets were in the sights. If Russia was doing something to threaten us? Well, we let them know we've got a nuclear weapon ready to fire at Moscow. WIth what Obama wants to do with the nuclear arsenal, this model is clearly the best approach now, six decades after the first nuclear weapon was discharged in battle.

What did eventually happen though, was the Eisenhower plan, the army guy that became president went with what he knew - which was land and air, and the three pronged methoed of threat deterrance defined as "massive retaliation" was the way the defense plan of the U.S. went, and it led to the cold war with Russia.

Anyway, enough of that. You bring up original sin, I brought up free will earlier. Now, that's interesting.

 

[Icebear]

To me, it's a simple matter of the citizens of the PSU culture, to take up arms and become what one of my mentors defines as a citizen warrior, (in the metaphorical sense, the pen is mightier than the sword, and the power to vote and hold your leadership accountable for their actions, in creating a culture worth defending. You might have a different label for it, but the concept is most likely the same.

I think we agree that change is warranted, and that pressure must be exerted somehow to create it.

We do agree on the need of the PSU culture to change, we disagree on how to motivate it. The PSU culture is already changing as the Freeh report suggests. There is vastly more that needs to be done but with accountability to standards set from outside I believe the broader community deserves the opportunity to make right it's own house addressing the sins and issues it was largely unaware of until November last fall. My suggestion still stands as a process for five to ten years of probation under the NCAA with regular reports to be made and specific goals to be achieved. I am not naive as to believe that this will achieve perfection or eliminate the possibility of abuse ever again but hopefully it will create a culture in which such an act is immediately confronted, stopped and punished under the law.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Original sin in Lutheran understanding is the self-centeredness that we all enter the world bearing. From the moment of birth a child's nature is demand and securing attention for self and one's needs or desires as life. Mom feed me, mom change me, mom hold me. From the beginning a child has no sense of other. Bill Cosby tells a great story about about one of his children wanting a cookie before dinner and Cosby told him, "no." Five minutes later the child is back as asks again and Cosby again refuses because it will be supper time soon. Another five minutes and the child tries yet again. Cosby gives a stern warning this last time and that seems to be the end of it. Except ten minutes later and Cosby recognizes there is too much silence in the house and he goes looking for the child. He finds the child in the kitchen with a chair pushed against the counter and the phone book on the counter with the cabinet door open, hand in the cookie jar on the top shelf. Suddenly the child realizes that Cosby is watching and withdrawing her hand with the cookie looks at him and says, "I got a cookie FOR YOU." in that fraction of a second the child's self-interest shifted from "my" desire for a treat to "my" desire to avoid suffering. And that is the best story about original sin that I have ever heard. Sin is simply turning away from what is good for our relationship with God and neighbor and towards our personal desires and will. This self centered sin is what leads us to sin by what we have done like Sandusky and what we have left undone like Curley and Schultz.

Ha. There's another point Cosby made in that story, is that children haven't learned yet that sound travels. That's why the child had no idea he'd caught, making all that racket in the kitchen building that elaborate ladder.

THe point of that, is that as both knowledge and power is acquired with every life's experience.... the depth of what goes into decision making will continue to grow. Had that child known that sound travels, the child might have come up with a different, more elaborate plan to get that cookie, no?

Which brings me to free will. That child's choice to go get that cookie, and that child's choice to deflect punishment by lying. The child knew he'd be punished, so he chose a course of action to avoid punishment.

I believe free will is an illusion. It's a core matter of faith, and how you approach faith and define your interpretation of God. Because to believe in the concept of free will as it's taught, as I was taught, is to believe that the human mind is separate and distinct from the defined boundaries of our real existence.

In truth, the human mind, is the holy grail of neurology. The great unknown of science. If you ever want to stump a neurologist, or a psychologist, just ask them what a thought is. How it works. The real energy that is the human mind, that can be measured in brain activity, but is absolutely not one bit understood, is the link between the real world and theology.

The concept that people can make any decision they want, separate from everythign that's happened to them in their lives up to that moment, is an illusion.

Neurosurgeons btw? They don't care.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Icebear wrote below in part of a response: (don't know how to quote without putting the whole thing up - just wanted to address one part at atime - too much at once otherswise)....

"The theological and philosophical concept of free will, good or bad, has little to do with the present situation. Within the present there is only penultimate freedom nothing more. Each agent is not captive to determinism in any sense. There is only action and inaction. There is "sin" by what I have done and what I have left undone as is said each week in the confession of the church tradition (Lutheran) in which I minister. Sandusky's actions were those of things done and Curley and Schultz are examples of the sin of things left undone."

I disagree. I believe the concept of free will is at the heart of the matter. At the heart of the matter. THe people that had the ability to take action to stop Sandusky, that could have spoken out to anyone and everyone that would listen, chose to be silent. Only one man, had the courage to continue to pursue it. Somethign in Mike McQueary's life, something made him strong enough to make the choice that others were not free to make.

 

[Kibitzer]

I do not think the "death penalty" is the way for the NCAA to go and I can't imagine that they could practically consider doing it at this very late date. So I think it is off the table.

In a post yesterday (several pages ago in this thread), I presented a batch of penalties and remedies that I thought would be worthy of consideration. I posed this key question:

"How difficult would it be to demand the resignations of all members of the Board of Trustees?"

There are 32 of them, some recent appointees, some "ex officio," all selected or elected by various constituencies. I don't think it would take very long to enlist an entire new roster and start from scratch.

And I believe it would work.

 

[Kibitzer]

Long article on the trustees...

To regain institutional control, this is the place to begin.

Replace all but most recently appointed trustees. New leadership at the top is vital to reform.

So do it.

 

[Icebear]

I do not think the "death penalty" is the way for the NCAA to go and I can't imagine that they could practically consider doing it at this very late date. So I think it is off the table.

In a post yesterday (several pages ago in this thread), I presented a batch of penalties and remedies that I thought would be worthy of consideration. I posed this key question:

"How difficult would it be to demand the resignations of all members of the Board of Trustees?"

There are 32 of them, some recent appointees, some "ex officio," all selected or elected by various constituencies. I don't think it would take very long to enlist an entire new roster and start from scratch.

And I believe it would work.

Kib, if the Board of Trustees are to resign there must be some type of orderly process created. It could well be a disaster for the school to be left without anyone having experience on the board. On the other hand I do not think that it is inappropriate for the Board to be asked to resign for their failure to maintain vigilence over the President and executives of the university. I do think that keeping those newest to the board who would not have been involved in as place to begin with a new structure in place.

 

[Kibitzer]

Kib, if the Board of Trustees are to resign there must be some type of orderly process created. It could well be a disaster for the school to be left without anyone having experience on the board. On the other hand I do not think that it isinappropriate for the Board to be asked to resign for their failure to maintain vigilence over the President and executives of the university. I do think that keeping those newest to the board who would not have been involved in as place to begin with a new structure in place.

With over a half million alumni and several million citizens in Pennsylvania, the waiting list would immediately be a mile long for membership. As for the experience factor, I once again invite your attention to Mark Twain's thoughts:

"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment."​

 

[Icebear]

With over a half million alumni and several million citizens in Pennsylvania, the waiting list would immediately be a mile long for membership. As for the experience factor, I once again refer you to Mark Twain's thoughts:

"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience consists of bad judgment."​

LOL, I always loved that thought of Twain but I hadn't thought of it for awhile. If that is the case then no one on the board should be replaced because no one has a more thorough experience of bad judgment the the present board.

Quite honstly, a documentary of PSU's process of working through this whole mess might be a useful tool for many places. Let the flaws and errors be shown in the light of day and full scutiny be applied to everything.

 

[Kibitzer]

Some have advocated that PSU be required to play all games away from home. While I endorse a bowl ban for a few years I have several misgivings about the "all away" schedule. Let me cite but two:

The opener is vs. Ohio U. on September 1, just 44 days away. Ohio U. is a cupcake that will play on national tv and pick up the biggest paycheck they ever saw. Why punish innocent Ohio by having them play at home, probably not on tv?

On September 15, PSU will play Navy (ABC and ESPN2) at home. It will be "Military Appreciation Day," and you can bet that PSU will go all out to honor our service men and women. A great opportunity for some redemption.

You tell me what the USNA would do beyond their customary routine to commemorate Military Appreciation Day. And would ABC show up at Annapolis?

 

[Carl Spackler]

Flawed argument. You assume that a 20,000 seat sellout at Ohio's stadium (we've been there recently) small venue, smallest in 1-A football I believe.....would bring in less revenue than playing an away game at PSU. I don't know that to be true, and th eonly reason your argument has a chance, is because Ohio's venue is so small, every other program on PSU's schedule with a large venue would be in for millions of unexpected dollars over what they projected for the year.

If you're worried about TV revenue hurting other programs, you keep PSU on TV, and have them forfeit their share of the take to the opponent that day.

As for the USNA? I bet they would be happy to have the opportunity to kick the out of PSU football on their home field on national television, and then keep PSU's share of the TV money.