OT: Thursday at 9 a.m., the Freeh Report is available. . .

[Icebear]

One of the groups involved and whose role and potential coverup and potential criminal neglect by staff needs to be investigated thoroughly is the Second Mile program. These folks seemed to have taken no action with information passed on to them to completely protect the children in their care and where Sandusky was doing his recruiting and hunting.

 

[diggerfoot]

Some are suggesting the NCAA has moral justification to go as far as the death penalty. Others are pointing out that the NCAA's legal jurisdiction falls short of that. The question goes beyond what the NCAA can do legally to what they can do successfully. Imagine this scenario: the NCAA imposes the death penalty knowing full well it would never stand up legally, yet Penn State does not challenge because they just want to end this thing.

On the other hand, Penn State and the NCAA may arrive at an understanding that "we'll tolerate such and such sanctions that go beyond your legal prerogatives and no more before we present a challenge." Or, Penn State may challenge any sanction they think goes beyond the NCAAs jurisdiction. I'm not suggesting that is how things should or will go down, just that there will likely be a more complicated game played than what is legal or moral with administering sanctions.

 

[JS]

I do not completely disagree with JS. It will be a long reach for the NCAA to punish PSU football under the broad "lack of institutional control" justification.

But I believe that they will seize on that and use it to "do something."

Having read this letter [pdf file] since last night, I'm more inclined to agree with you.

Seems the NCAA has long since done its homework in scouring its By-Laws for provisions on which it might hang its hat. Stretchy for sure, but the willing attitude is there.

 

[Kibitzer]

Some are suggesting the NCAA has moral justification to go as far as the death penalty. Others are pointing out that the NCAA's legal jurisdiction falls short of that. The question goes beyond what the NCAA can do legally to what they can do successfully. Imagine this scenario: the NCAA imposes the death penalty knowing full well it would never stand up legally, yet Penn State does not challenge because they just want to end this thing.

On the other hand, Penn State and the NCAA may arrive at an understanding that "we'll tolerate such and such sanctions that go beyond your legal prerogatives and no more before we present a challenge." Or, Penn State may challenge any sanction they think goes beyond the NCAAs jurisdiction. I'm not suggesting that is how things should or will go down, just that there will likely be a more complicated game played than what is legal or moral with administering sanctions.

Having read this letter [pdf file] since last night, I'm more inclined to agree with you.

Seems the NCAA has long since done its homework in scouring its By-Laws for provisions on which it might hang its hat. Stretchy for sure, but the willing attitude is there.

I mentioned earlier that some form of behind-the-scenes form of plea bargaining could very well occur between the NCAA and PSU.

On the one hand, the NCAA simply cannot bear to hear the howls from the multitudes if they "do nothing." They also are surely reluctant to mete out the "death penalty," for it would punish a couple hundred innocent athletes, thousands of innocent fans, hundreds of innocent people on various payrolls (coaches, security, concessions, event staff, drivers, caterers, vendors, and so on) and basically destroy the future of a football program that has brought joy to many thousands of students, alumni, and regional fans for many years.

So what can they do that will satisfy the general public yet keep the listing ship afloat until repairs are completed? My view is that the NCAA could vacate all PSU football victories between, say, date of first report by McQueary to Paterno and the date Sandusky was arrested. Maybe toss in some recruiting restrictions, some probation, and a severe demand that institional control be tightly re-established.

Paterno and PSU are denied that "most wins" record and claim to a few championships. The Paterno worshippers will whine. The din will mostly die down. And the courtrooms will be busy with civil cases.

I think something like this will work, but it will take at least five years (not counting prison sentences for some that will go on much longer).

 

[boontonbomber]

a step in the right direction for psu might be to self-impose penalties, such as no post-season competition for a period of time,etc. i think it's very important that psu continue to show that they understand how terribly negligent the university was, and to punish themselves , in moving towards restoring the integrity of the university. settling civil suits is not going to do it. for sure, psu is a whole lot more than football. and university leaders need to show that they are not going to let everything else that the school stands for be lessened any further . because of what the leaders of the school did, or did not do, the whole place is under a cloud right now. they need to take serious actions to begin getting out from underneath that cloud. that would be a much more significant approach than waiting for ncaa penalties, which may never happen anyway.

 

[Icebear]

The morality slope is a very risky one for the NCAA to travel down even if as it appears they may be willing to do so. What action might they have rushed to in the Duke men's lacrosse scandal to take a stand on violence against women and how might they have had egg on their face presently if those actions had led to a suspension by them of the team from the post season tournament. What standards can be defined that give the NCAA clarity of action without leaving them to be tossed about by the whims of public opinion. I agree with Kib and JS that the pdf JS links would give ample coverge for the NCAA to choose to act. Whether that action is wise is different thing.

Negotiating with the school and attempting to find a basis for the school's self imposed penalties may well be the best option but will likely be unsatisfactory to some while keeping the NCAA out of the quagmire of moral enforcement issues.

I do disagree with Kib that altering on field records for off field violations is a useful or appropriate penalty because once again it punishes the wrong group the kids and coaches who played without any knowledge of anything involving Jerry Sandusky. Nor does it make any recompense to the victims while furthers the risk of making their lives even more miserable by the irrational and criminal who will misdirect their anger at the victims in an ongoing manner. The goals are to create a penalty through which others who may have been or will be similarly victimized are encouraged and strengthened to come forward.

Our governor still remains unaccountable for his involvement when he was the AG and appeared to slow track this issue with a single investigator during his gubenatorial campaign.

 

[EricLA]

I don't pretend to understand the myriad of complicated issues surrounding the case, but like most, I hope the NCAA comes down on PSU as hard as they possibly can - to deter other schools from promoting a mass cover up to save the reputation of the university at the expense of children. When an institution goes out of its way to protect a child molester, an example needs to be made of them.

 

[SubbaBub]

I don't pretend to understand the myriad of complicated issues surrounding the case, but like most, I hope the NCAA comes down on PSU as hard as they possibly can - to deter other schools from promoting a mass cover up to save the reputation of the university at the expense of children. When an institution goes out of its way to protect a child molester, an example needs to be made of them.

I guarantee every NCAA institution is sufficiently aware of the consequences of something like this happening on their campus. Keeping 100 innocent students off the field will advance this goal zero percent. Whatever punishment the University may receive needs to happen on the administration side of the campus, not the athletic side as that's where the failure occurred.

Some are distracted by the sports tie-in others a strange need for vengeance. Whatever happens needs to assure that four people can't keep a secret like this again. Which to me is the most amazing part. Isn't the thought behind multiple layers of management to prevent the dumb decisions that were made here?

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[EricLA]

I guarantee every NCAA institution is sufficiently aware of the consequences of something like this happening on their campus. Keeping 100 innocent students off the field will advance this goal zero percent. Whatever punishment the University may receive needs to happen on the administration side of the campus, not the athletic side as that's where the failure occurred.

Some are distracted by the sports tie-in others a strange need for vengeance. Whatever happens needs to assure that four people can't keep a secret like this again. Which to me is the most amazing part. Isn't the thought behind multiple layers of management to prevent the dumb decisions that were made here?

I also guarantee you that people also know murder is a really bad thing, and some states have the death penalty and others have life in prison. Those are supposed to be the deterrents for people to commit the crime.

And i'm not sure about the comment that the crimes didn't occur on the athletic side. Paterno knew about it and did nothing and his assistant coach was molesting children. that certainly is on the athletic side.

And strange need for vengeance? Children were molested, and those in the athletic dept and administration who had a chance to put a stop to it looked the other way. there should be outrage and demands for punishment, not excuses, blame shifting, and strange requests for leniency.

Your point about not "punishing the 100 innocent students on the field" is strange. UCONN men's hoops didn't take grades seriously enough and now the current players are paying the price of a low APR and will miss the post season for both the Big East and the NCAA's, if they were eligible. the current group of students are being punished for sins of the coaching staff.

Anyway I get that people will have differing views on this, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion as to how severe the punishment should be. I'm of the opinion it should be the most severe possible...

 

[SubbaBub]

I also guarantee you that people also know murder is a really bad thing, and some states have the death penalty and others have life in prison. Those are supposed to be the deterrents for people to commit the crime.

And i'm not sure about the comment that the crimes didn't occur on the athletic side. Paterno knew about it and did nothing and his assistant coach was molesting children. that certainly is on the athletic side.

And strange need for vengeance? Children were molested, and those in the athletic dept and administration who had a chance to put a stop to it looked the other way. there should be outrage and demands for punishment, not excuses, blame shifting, and strange requests for leniency.

Your point about not "punishing the 100 innocent students on the field" is strange. UCONN men's hoops didn't take grades seriously enough and now the current players are paying the price of a low APR and will miss the post season for both the Big East and the NCAA's, if they were eligible. the current group of students are being punished for sins of the coaching staff.

Anyway I get that people will have differing views on this, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion as to how severe the punishment should be. I'm of the opinion it should be the most severe possible...

Same concept for the MBB team, don't punish the students. Both scandals are a result of poor administration and in both cases, the coach in question is acting as a manager or administrator and not as a participant in an athletic endeavor.

Yes, I believe people have gathered up their torches looking to inflict more damage in areas that do nothing to improve the situation going forward for either PSU or the victims. The responsible parties according to the Freeh report and the DA have been dealt with. Throwing the baby out with the bath water comes to mind.

As for additional action, I'd really like to see investigations of the Police dept, DA's office, and a whole mess of people associated with Second Mile.

The Freeh report lays everything at the feet of the four men who where dismissed, convenient for a whole bunch of people who would like to move on.

As for the NCAA, I suggest two years probation to implement the governance reforms outlined in the Freeh report. If not met, a full ban on NCAA participation until they do. A bit more effective in garnering the change everyone wants than taking down a statue or forfeiting some FB games, don't you think? Why two years? So they don't rush just get something in place.

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[Icebear]

As for the NCAA, I suggest two years probation to implement the governance reforms outlined in the Freeh report. If not met, a full ban on NCAA participation until they do. A bit more effective in garnering the change everyone wants than taking down a statue or forfeiting some FB games, don't you think? Why two years? So they don't rush just get something in place.
Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

I think that the idea of probation with additional penalty if restructuring and adequate safe guards are not put in place is an excellent path because it puts the pressure where it needs to be placed on reformation of the university structure, procedures, and administration.

The best suggestion I have heard pertaining to the statue of Joe is that is be moved into the library and placed within a display of all the ways good and bad (the neglect of the events surrounding Jerry Sandusky) Joe impacted the university and community as a lesson that reminds a person of how quickly all the good someone does can be offset and wiped away by one ill conceived act. Removing everything hinting of Joe from campus simply leads to forgetting everything and adds no teaching or lesson learned.

 

[msf22b]

Although not necessarily completely agreeing with Ice's position above, the process of judgement of the man seems to be a bit over the top.

In this morning's Washington Post, a columnist wrote:

Paterno’s legacy is no longer stained or tarnished — it is destroyed. Regardless of how many good things he did during his 62 years as a Penn State employee, the tragedy that he failed to stop overwhelms all the good he did. I simply do not believe that history will remember only this horrific set of events but will be able to place in perspective the excellence of his previous record prior to this horrendous occurrence which may very well be seen as a "fatal flaw," as in a Shakespearean tragedy.

Indeed, after careful reading of the report, I cannot find direct evidence that the reason for the leadership's inaction was to prevent bad publicity or to insulate the football program from scandal. That may very well be the case but for now that conclusion strikes me as premature. The electronic mail that Freeh relied on will certainly not be the last evidence although there is some reason to be concerned regarding the coach's representatives being allowed to cull his papers prior to submission.

And certainly, others will be drawn in, the Governor, the Foundation and the Board. Feeh's mandate had limits and as horrendous as the matter now appears, it seems likely that many more were complicit in extending the "silence."

 

[OneTrickPony]

Although not necessarily completely agreeing with Ice's position above, the process of judgement of the man seems to be a bit over the top.

In this morning's Washington Post, a columnist wrote:

Paterno’s legacy is no longer stained or tarnished — it is destroyed. Regardless of how many good things he did during his 62 years as a Penn State employee, the tragedy that he failed to stop overwhelms all the good he did. I simply do not believe that history will remember only this horrific set of events but will be able to place in perspective the excellence of his previous record prior to this horrendous occurrence which may very well be seen as a "fatal flaw," as in a Shakespearean tragedy.

Indeed, after careful reading of the report, I cannot find direct evidence that the reason for the leadership's inaction was to prevent bad publicity or to insulate the football program from scandal. That may very well be the case but for now that conclusion strikes me as premature. The electronic mail that Freeh relied on will certainly not be the last evidence although there is some reason to be concerned regarding the coach's representatives being allowed to cull his papers prior to submission.

And certainly, others will be drawn in, the Governor, the Foundation and the Board. Feeh's mandate had limits and as horrendous as the matter now appears, it seems likely that many more were complicit in extending the "silence."

The Paterno Family would be well advised to hire a professional crisis management firm from here on out...

 

[Kibitzer]

An article in the NY Times analyzes the situation faced by the NCAA and discusses matters like "instutional control" and the suitability of the "death penalty."

One sentence jumped off the page to me: "[T]hose crimes are considered so heinous that there is a widespread view that the N.C.A.A. must do something."

I added emphasis because it happens that I used those exact two words often in earlier when making a case for NCAA punitive action of PSU. The question now seems to focus not on whether PSU should be punished, but how. The alternatives appear to be either the "death penalty" (shut down the PSU football program for some specified period of time) or something else (not yet so clearly defined).

 

[JS]

Although not necessarily completely agreeing with Ice's position above, the process of judgement of the man seems to be a bit over the top. * * * Indeed, after careful reading of the report, I cannot find direct evidence that the reason for the leadership's inaction was to prevent bad publicity or to insulate the football program from scandal. That may very well be the case but for now that conclusion strikes me as premature

Agree that the process of judgment on the man in many quarters seems over the top.

I've been of the view since the beginning that JoePa knew more for longer than he let on. I've been of the view that he would've been inclined to avoid damaging publicity, and would likely have exerted his influence in that regard.

I wrote this satirical post last fall aimed at the PSU apologists. Among other things, it posits a conversation between JoePa and Curley in which JoePa advocates letting the chips fall where they may -- within the University walls of course.

Prescient in view of Curley's email about changing his mind about going to the outside authorities after talking with Joe? No. Pretty much common sense. Direct evidence may or may not be forthcoming, but I don't mind expressing a gut feeling in this forum, now backed by at least circumstantial evidence.

Having said that, I share your view that the condemnation of JoePa as having been exposed as evil incarnate -- with a reputation totally and forever destroyed -- is unseemly. The man's life and career should be viewed in their entirety, and we are not yet done putting this episode in perspective.

I feel the same about the vehement wishes of some that State College should be destroyed and salt scattered on the ground like the Romans did at Carthage. Hatred is rarely a helpful emotion, and its focus can become irrationally diffuse to the detriment of the innocent or relatively innocent. That's something good people should be wary of.

Like I said, I've been suspicious of Joe's role in the Sandusky matter all along and have never accepted wagons being drawn around him. By the same token, I don't consider dancing on graves to be an admirable activity.

 

[msf22b]

There is a great deal of talk among fans, lawyers and columnists about the legality of the NCAA's potential actions.
I find myself in agreement with Kib...They've got to do something...and if they do, it can't be a slap on the wrist.
The University's board could take the pressure off the NCAA by closing down the season for a year and then resigning.

 

[alexrgct]

Agree that the process of judgment on the man in many quarters seems over the top.

I've been of the view since the beginning that JoePa knew more for longer than he let on. I've been of the view that he would've been inclined to avoid damaging publicity, and would likely have exerted his influence in that regard.

I wrote this satirical post last fall aimed at the PSU apologists. Among other things, it posits a conversation between JoePa and Curley in which JoePa advocates letting the chips fall where they may -- within the University walls of course.

Prescient in view of Curley's email about changing his mind about going to the outside authorities after talking with Joe? No. Pretty much common sense. Direct evidence may or may not be forthcoming, but I don't mind expressing a gut feeling in this forum, now backed by at least circumstantial evidence.

Having said that, I share your view that the condemnation of JoePa as having been exposed as evil incarnate -- with a reputation totally and forever destroyed -- is unseemly. The man's life and career should be viewed in their entirety, and we are not yet done putting this episode in perspective.

I feel the same about the vehement wishes of some that State College should be destroyed and salt scattered on the ground like the Romans did at Carthage. Hatred is rarely a helpful emotion, and its focus can become irrationally diffuse to the detriment of the innocent or relatively innocent. That's something good people should be wary of.

Like I said, I've been suspicious of Joe's role in the Sandusky matter all along and have never accepted wagons being drawn around him. By the same token, I don't consider dancing on graves to be an admirable activity.

Give me a break. No one is "dancing on his grave"; they're condemning a dispicable act. The fact that this sorry excuse for a human being is dead doesn't absolve him from anything. It just means he desn't have to face the music.

Don't worry- his tradition of protecting his football program over all else lives on in State College...which is exactly why someone from the outside needs to come in and torch it. These cultists haven't done the right thing in decades and they're not about to start now. Joe thought his program and everyone associated with it was above the law- it's time for the NCAA to step in and show them otherwise...if they're not too busy punishing Cal Tech for allowing its students to shop classes early in the semester or something.

The NCAA can pretty much do whatever it wants. They're a nn-governmental regulatory body. Moreover, there's not a jury in America who would rule in favor of Penn State if they tried to sue.

And if the NCAA doesn't have the stones, the rest of CFB should. Refuse to play Penn State. Hell, if I were in the B1G, I might even suggest forfeiting a game rather than play them just to make a point, especially if it was a road game. They need to be taught a lesson; the moronic statements of the BOT regarding even the act of taking down the statue of a pedophile enabler prove it.

 

[alexrgct]

The Paterno Family would be well advised to hire a professional crisis management firm from here on out...

The Paterno family would be well advised to be quiet from here on out because they make us all collectively dumber any time one of them opens their mouths.

The Paterno family patriarch enabled child rape. Repeatedly. Over the course of at least 15 years. He let a grown man use the Penn State program, brand, and facilities to single out weak children in need of a father figure and violate them. He was the most powerful person in that community, and he protected his friend and defensive coordinator because beating Miami in the 1986 Fiesta Bowl was more important to him than the physical and mental anguish of children. That is his legacy. Yes, there is plenty of blame to go around, and it should be spread around liberally. University administration, BOT, possibly even the current governor of PA (given his negligence in his role of AG at the time) all need to be dragged through the mud too. But others receiving their fair share of blame doesn't absolve JoePa any more than being dead does.

 

[msf22b]

Alex is certainly right about one point: the Trustee's don't get it.
They sound eerily like the terrible four with regard removal of the statue:
My paraphrase: "maybe it'll all go away."
Read for yourself:
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8166643/joe-paterno-statue-remain-penn-state-sources-say

 

[OneTrickPony]

My suspicion is the statue will be stolen some night, and let everybody off the hook...

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

The light of truth…

“"Football runs this university."”

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/15/us/triponey-paterno-penn-state/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

 

[JS]

Give me a break. No one is "dancing on his grave"; they're condemning a dispicable act. The fact that this sorry excuse for a human being is dead doesn't absolve him from anything. It just means he desn't have to face the music.

"Sorry excuse for a human being?" Really, Alex, you must have known him well to say that.

Pretty good example of what I mean when I say over the top. And it goes a bit beyond "condemning a despicable act," eh?

I think he was part of the cover-up (I've said a possibly decisive part) and might well have been indicted had he lived. That'll have to be enough from me for now. We'll see what Curley and Schultz have to say in the civil lawsuits. We probably won't hear from them in the criminal cases.

Don't worry- his tradition of protecting his football program over all else lives on in State College...which is exactly why someone from the outside needs to come in and torch it. * * * The NCAA can pretty much do whatever it wants.

I'm of the view that whatever they may decide to do may be a real expansion of their authority beyond their jurisdiction. That troubles me. And if you say "Give me a break, what's troubling is that happened," I'll say "Give ME a break." There's room to be troubled about lots of things in this matter, and also, incidentally, to be respectful of differing opinions.

Moreover, there's not a jury in America who would rule in favor of Penn State if they tried to sue.

No there isn't. Because it wouldn't be a jury trial. It'd be a contract case tried to a judge.

And if the NCAA doesn't have the stones, the rest of CFB should. Refuse to play Penn State. Hell, if I were in the B1G, I might even suggest forfeiting a game rather than play them just to make a point, especially if it was a road game.

Don't see that as even a remote possibility. Such zealotry does not reside within the major football programs Penn State plays. For them to say "we'll show them that football shouldn't be king" would be like Al Capone lamenting the shady activities of Lucky Luciano.

Don't much care about the statue controversy. The trustees get burned on that one no matter what they do.

The big thing to me is institutional reforms in relation to the reporting laws. Big-time football itself at Penn State and about 25 other schools like it isn't going to change because of this. But fear of the hoosegow can work wonders for the decisions of individuals in lots of organizations who are a position to blow the whistle.

 

[cardfan]

The light of truth…

“"Football runs this university."”

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/15/us/triponey-paterno-penn-state/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

I read that story as well. I thought it was one of the damning pieces of Paterno and the PSU culture. Vicky Triponey sounded very credible about her experience at PSU and challenges wanting to hold the football players accountable for bad behavior. I'm not surprised at all as I saw some of the true Joe when the Sandusky scandal finally went public. Kudos to Vicky for standing up to Joe! Spainer fired her because she was only one of 4 or 5 people who saw the bad side of Joe. That is scary that he fooled so many people for so long.

Also, it was great that ex UConn ftball coach, Edsall said wonderful things about Vicky and how they worked together at UConn, to create a culture where the ftball program and players were to be treated the same as all students. What a concept!

 

[Kibitzer]

The suggestion that other schools, as a matter of principle, should refuse to play PSU -- even forfeit a scheduled game -- is tantamount to calling upon them to take a vow of poverty.

Somehow I just don't believe that is a realistic possibility.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

I am no less apalled than anyone else about Paterno's behavior. However, this Penn State Culture is throughout the school, not just in the football program. Hiring / promoting from within, believing the answers are within (don't go to outsiders) and of course a concern for how things look. Um, very corporate, certainly likely in other FB programs, and not impossible in other universities as a whole. Very disturbing. Hopefully, although I agree the Trustee's article didn't sound it, there will be change.

As everyone slams these "enablers" left, right and sideways, I just wish folks would realize that, in spite of all the "motives" implied, a portion of the truth it seems to me is simply that "they" never realized the extent of the evil. Partly because they didn't want to, I'm sure. But to give the extensive benefits they gave, and to continue in relationship with Sandusky through last year convinces me they never really "got it" or realized what they had done. Because the report makes clear that these benefits were unrelated to the central issue. And lets be real - of course they were, what do you think, he needed a bribe to keep his mouth shut? He wasn't going to make any trouble, you can be sure of that. These benefits were - because these men could convince themselves that the issue wasn't that bad and therefore could keep it from becoming that bad - the benefits that they gave Jerry because they thought he deserved them.

It doesn't make their actions / inactions any better. But it is a perspective that does factor in.