OT: PGA Championship

[amory]

Here's my take on the PGA:

Man, Golf misses Tiger. There will probably never be another Tiger. He was "must watch" Golf when he was in contention. He was the little white ball equivalent to Mike Tyson. Or Jordan. You just were compelled to watch him create historical statutes from unformed blobs of clay.

Golf doesn't miss Tiger. Golf is in a better place now than it ever has been. I'd like to see Tiger come back and contend again, maybe he will, maybe he won't, but there is so much to like right now that it doesn't really matter.

Spieth just finished off Tiger's 1-year majors scoring record (-54 or something). The kid is 22. He shot 17 under par on a difficult course and LOST. To another likeable young dude who shot 20 under par in a major tournament. Tiger never did that.

I respect what Tiger did for the game of golf. He basically created these young guys by popularizing the game among youth. But Tiger had Phil to compete against, and that's pretty much it. If Tiger was coming up now, among all this talent, he wouldn't get close to the number of wins he has. He was mostly playing against paunchy old men. That's not to say he isn't one of the greatest of all time, he is. But there's a level of competition now that he never saw in his prime.

 

[TasteofUConn]

Golf doesn't miss Tiger.

We're going to have to disagree on this. I'm no Tiger fan, but if you had Tiger in contention in today's round, it would have gone from excellent golf to epic.

 

[amory]

We're going to have to disagree on this. I'm no Tiger fan, but if you had Tiger in contention in today's round, it would have gone from excellent golf to epic.

It's fine, more than happy to agree to disagree. But this is the same problem the NBA has now, comparing every post-Jordan player to Jordan and deciding they don't stack up.

Except in this case you have a guy like Spieth who not only is stacking up to Tiger at this point in his career, but there's data showing he's actually better. And we have an era now where there's parity in the competition so we don't have to have people betting on either Spieth or "the field" to win. Was that really so enjoyable when Tiger was just wrecking inferior opponents?

I wish we could put a prime Tiger in one of today's majors and see how it plays out.

 

[uconnfan68]

It's fine, more than happy to agree to disagree. But this is the same problem the NBA has now, comparing every post-Jordan player to Jordan and deciding they don't stack up.

Except in this case you have a guy like Spieth who not only is stacking up to Tiger at this point in his career, but there's data showing he's actually better. And we have an era now where there's parity in the competition so we don't have to have people betting on either Spieth or "the field" to win. Was that really so enjoyable when Tiger was just wrecking inferior opponents?

I wish we could put a prime Tiger in one of today's majors and see how it plays out.

He wouldn 't intimidate them like it seems he used to.

 

[jleves]

If DJ could get 1 mulligan a round he'd never lose. Was +5 after 4, and finished -3. Spectacular, with a bogie on 17 also. Must be something about pressure at that level.

Even with a par on the first, it still leaves him 4 strokes back and in third even with a 7 under. He lost the tourney on day 3. He needed to post an early 18 or 19 under with a spectacular round to put pressure on the leaders.

 

[superjohn]

I'm not a golfer but I love competition and always watch the majors. The game has been struggling for several reasons, most of all the destruction of Tiger. You can't really ask for a better deal just in terms of young talent on the tour. Rory, Spieth and Day seem to have separated themselves as the three best players in the world. They all are amazing talents and it doesn't hurt that they are all quality guys. The next tier is Fowler, Dustin Johnson and a couple others. In terms of quality players and classy young marketable talent the game should be in good hands.

 

[UConn4ever]

Rickie is 26 he has a lot time left. Not a doubt my mind DJ wins a few majors in the next 5 years.

Two other guys who are young and will be in every major conversation for years to come are Brooks Kopeka and Hideki Matsyuma.

Justin Thomas will have a great career with multiple major victories

 

[mauconnfan]

It's fine, more than happy to agree to disagree. But this is the same problem the NBA has now, comparing every post-Jordan player to Jordan and deciding they don't stack up.

Except in this case you have a guy like Spieth who not only is stacking up to Tiger at this point in his career, but there's data showing he's actually better. And we have an era now where there's parity in the competition so we don't have to have people betting on either Spieth or "the field" to win. Was that really so enjoyable when Tiger was just wrecking inferior opponents?

I wish we could put a prime Tiger in one of today's majors and see how it plays out.

Let's watch it happen before we proclaim this. Jordan is amazing and playing great, I hope he does shatter records great kid. But a year does not make a career let's watch it progress. There's a lot of really really good golfers out there and there were when Tiger was out there. Just because his opponents are older now doesn't mean they weren't as good as what Jordan is facing that's ridiculous. If you want to bash opponents and competition you need to go back to Nicklaus who had a total of 5 guys who could win a big one besides him.

 

[Jerry1714]

No idea why you would think Dustin will win one - he just doesn't seem to have the mental game to get it done. Amazing golfer in regulars, but I just don't see him holding it together for four rounds in the majors particularly after this year. Put Spieths brain in that body and Jack's records would be crumbling.

Rickie may get one but at 26 he's only won on tour 2 times in 6 years. Granted one is the Players which is impressive, but it's not like he's been burning up the PGA with wins. Not sure why you would expect him to win a major. It wouldn't be shocking to me if he got one, but I would guess it's unlikely. Other than 2014 where he had an impressive run with 2 seconds, a third and a 5th in the majors, his next highest finish is tied for 10th in 2013.

Rickie also won the Scottish Open this year. He also beat Rory in the Korean Open a couple years ago. And the Players which he won is considered the 5th major and is considered to have the best field in golf. He had a top 5 in all of the majors by the time he was 25 and is #8 player in the world. I am at a loss as to why anyone who follows the game would think it is unlikely he would win one.

Do you realize Jason Day, who is older than Fowler, had 1 worldwide stroke play win before this year?

Rory and Dustin are the two most talented players in the world, Dustin has 11 PGA wins and with his talent and consistent presence in contention he will get one. Not a doubt in my mind.

 

[mauconnfan]

I think we need to get realistic about any comparisons to Tiger, but I'm fine with doing so. But when someone starts winning as much as Tiger for as long as he did then we can talk. But the numbers are numbing when you think prior to the last 2 years he basically won 30-35% of the events he played in. We need to really hold back on the comparisons, even the haters should know that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Tiger_Woods

Still at 25.4% on wins vs events played after the last 2 years - amazing.

 

[tykurez]

What a great golf year. An outsider may think ... "oh Tiger left, so now all these second tier guys are duking it out" ... but that's just not the case. The young talent on the tour now is amazing. These majors are must-watch TV and even the non-major tournaments are turning into hey-this-is-good-stuff TV.

Side note: was anyone else impressed by Tony Finau? That dude could hit the ball and he was seemingly draining 15+ footers all day.

 

[mauconnfan]

What a great golf year. An outsider may think ... "oh Tiger left, so now all these second tier guys are duking it out" ... but that's just not the case. The young talent on the tour no is amazing. These majors are must-watch TV and the non-major tournaments are turning into hey-this-is-good-stuff TV.

Side note: was anyone else impressed by Tony Finau? That dude could hit the ball and he was seemingly draining 15+ footers all day.

Finau will win too I agree. Long with tee game and irons, can putt - he has been impressive. Big Break dude right?

 

[amory]

I think we need to get realistic about any comparisons to Tiger, but I'm fine with doing so. But when someone starts winning as much as Tiger for as long as he did then we can talk. But the numbers are numbing when you think prior to the last 2 years he basically won 30-35% of the events he played in. We need to really hold back on the comparisons, even the haters should know that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Tiger_Woods

Still at 25.4% on wins vs events played after the last 2 years - amazing.

The point is for most of his prime years the competition just wasn't at the same level as it is today.

Tiger was like the John Wooden UCLA teams.

 

[intlzncster]

The point is for most of his prime years the competition just wasn't at the same level as it is today.

Tiger was like the John Wooden UCLA teams.

You're talking like golf was underdeveloped 10 years ago. The talent was there; Tiger at his prime was just that much better than everyone else. Jack Nicklaus was closer to Wooden UCLA teams. That's how good he was. He'd probably do the same thing now.

It's more a comment on how great Tiger was than how bad everyone else is.

 

[Waquoit]

We're going to have to disagree on this. I'm no Tiger fan, but if you had Tiger in contention in today's round, it would have gone from excellent golf to epic.

You could say that about Ben Hogan as well. Both had the same chance to contend.

 

[Waquoit]

Tiger should go on a goodwill tour next year and play all of the tournaments he's snubbed over the years. It's not beneath him anymore. A win might help him regain his mojo.

 

[donyell34]

Easy to forget what tiger did with his current state of his golf game but what a tremendous run he had. In the sport of golf his accomplishments will live forever. Yes the game belongs to the young guys now with a few exceptions.

 

[amory]

You're talking like golf was underdeveloped 10 years ago. The talent was there; Tiger at his prime was just that much better than everyone else. Jack Nicklaus was closer to Wooden UCLA teams. That's how good he was. He'd probably do the same thing now.

It's more a comment on how great Tiger was than how bad everyone else is.

Tiger changed the game. He's the reason professional golf has moved forward. He got kids into it at a younger age, and is the reason why professional golfers today look like actual athletes.

Here's the top 10 OWGR from August 2002 vs. today

1: Tiger
Spieth
2: Mickelson
McIlroy
3: David Duval
Day
4: Ernie Els
Watson
5: Vijay Singh
Rose
6: Davis Love III
Furyk
7: Sergio Garcia
DJ
8: Darren Clarke
Fowler
9: Colin Montgomerie
Stenson
10: Mike Weir
Sergio

2002 had some fantastic golfers to be sure, Mickelson, Els, Singh, all-time greats. But give me today's top 10 in a head-to-head matchup any day of the week.

Cheers to Sergio for still being on the list 13 years later. Pretty cool.

 

[Jerry1714]

You're talking like golf was underdeveloped 10 years ago. The talent was there; Tiger at his prime was just that much better than everyone else. Jack Nicklaus was closer to Wooden UCLA teams. That's how good he was. He'd probably do the same thing now.

It's more a comment on how great Tiger was than how bad everyone else is.

Golf was not near the level it is now during the early 2000s. I do not mean this as a knock on Tiger because if you put early 2000s Tiger into today's era he would still dominate and rack up countless wins.

But there just was not the depth back then. Guys like Jasper Parnavick and Justin Leanord were Top 15 in the world. Dudley Hart, Chris Perry and Carlos Franco were all top 25 in the world.

The depth is there now because of him.

 

[mauconnfan]

Tiger changed the game. He's the reason professional golf has moved forward. He got kids into it at a younger age, and is the reason why professional golfers today look like actual athletes.

Here's the top 10 OWGR from August 2002 vs. today

1: Tiger
Spieth
2: Mickelson
McIlroy
3: David Duval
Day
4: Ernie Els
Watson
5: Vijay Singh
Rose
6: Davis Love III
Furyk
7: Sergio Garcia
DJ
8: Darren Clarke
Fowler
9: Colin Montgomerie
Stenson
10: Mike Weir
Sergio

2002 had some fantastic golfers to be sure, Mickelson, Els, Singh, all-time greats. But give me today's top 10 in a head-to-head matchup any day of the week.

Cheers to Sergio for still being on the list 13 years later. Pretty cool.

When any of your guys win as much as Phil, Ernie and Vijay let me know. Until then the John Wooden comparison is a joke.

 

[mauconnfan]

Golf was not near the level it is now during the early 2000s. I do not mean this as a knock on Tiger because if you put early 2000s Tiger into today's era he would still dominate and rack up countless wins.

But there just was not the depth back then. Guys like Jasper Parnavick and Justin Leanord were Top 15 in the world. Dudley Hart, Chris Perry and Carlos Franco were all top 25 in the world.

The depth is there now because of him.

Guys are good now but they need to win to prove the actual "depth". Just going out and cashing checks is great for their wives but if you can't win with any consistency you can't be compared to many who played during Tigers days. And let's be honest here the guy was winning 35% of the tourneys he was in, how many could others win? When Duval, Phil, Vijay, Els had years like they had Tiger was there competing and they won despite his huge %. Put Tiger out there in his prime with these guys and they may not be putting on these shows. I get the comparisons and they need to be there but so far no one is Tiger at all. For a year or a tourney maybe but let's wait and see before we start talking about how "easy" it was for him. Just not accurate at all.

 

[amory]

When any of your guys win as much as Phil, Ernie and Vijay let me know. Until then the John Wooden comparison is a joke.

Phil, Ernie, and Vijay have been playing professional golf for about 20 years. And the entire point of my argument is that today's talent will likely not win as many tournaments, because there's better competition.

Scoring average would be a better metric. It was interesting yesterday that Spieth broke Tiger's total score in the 4 majors over a single year, and Day broke the record for lowest score in a major. On the same day.

 

[gwhuskyfan]

Phil, Ernie, and Vijay have been playing professional golf for about 20 years. And the entire point of my argument is that today's talent will likely not win as many tournaments, because there's better competition.

Scoring average would be a better metric. It was interesting yesterday that Spieth broke Tiger's total score in the 4 majors over a single year, and Day broke the record for lowest score in a major. On the same day.

Agree with you 100%. Was making this same point to a friend earlier.

 

[mauconnfan]

Phil, Ernie, and Vijay have been playing professional golf for about 20 years. And the entire point of my argument is that today's talent will likely not win as many tournaments, because there's better competition.

Scoring average would be a better metric. It was interesting yesterday that Spieth broke Tiger's total score in the 4 majors over a single year, and Day broke the record for lowest score in a major. On the same day.

This makes little sense. There were less victories available with Tiger playing because he won most of them right? These guys played great for sure and the numbers are ridiclous, great players. But you just have to be a hater to think these guys are better and will be better than what he accomplished or even what Ernie, Phil or others did. Let's see it play out first before all he Tiger haters get the their jollies.

 

[Jerry1714]

Phil, Ernie, and Vijay have been playing professional golf for about 20 years. And the entire point of my argument is that today's talent will likely not win as many tournaments, because there's better competition.

Scoring average would be a better metric. It was interesting yesterday that Spieth broke Tiger's total score in the 4 majors over a single year, and Day broke the record for lowest score in a major. On the same day.

Scoring average is not a great metric here since they played different courses. Tiger beat the average score of the field by 84 in his majors, Speith did it by 70.