OT- Peyton

[upstater]

Let's not forget brady still hasn't won without a top notch d. And the year he went down the pats won 11 games with Matt friggin cassel. Brady is great but belichick is a genius (ask the Ravens) and in my opinion the best coach ever without a doubt. Brady gets too much credit and manning gets way too much heat

It's the reverse. Brady gets little credit and Peyton gets way too much.

You must have missed the 2003 Super Bowl when the vaunted Patriots defense gave up 29 points in less than 31 minutes. Brady had to throw for one of the highest yardage totals in Super Bowl history, mid 300s, to win that game. But you guys will only credit the D, which got shredded, even though the QB was awesome that day. In fact, you'll even credit the kicker over Brady (I've heard that one a million times) even though the guy missed 2 chip shot field goals.

As for Matt Cassell, the Patriots went from 18 wins the year before to 11. They dropped 7 years. And it was a schedule so weak, that 11-5 wasn't good enough to get them in the playoffs. If they'd managed to win another game against a playoff team, they would have been in, but they just couldn't knock anyone off. As for Cassel, by the way, he went on to post career passing yardage and QB rating highs, AND to make the Pro Bowl, for Kansas City--AFTER he left the Patriots. Yes, Cassel had better numbers at KC than with NE. That's a fact.

 

[John]

I don't know enough about the NFL to talk about greatest or choke-job artist, ect, all I know is the guy is fun to watch.

 

[Deepster]

Calling card? You kind of glossed over that 2006 playoff. After he threw that pick 6 to Asante Sameul, he was pretty good in that comeback from from the 21-3 deficit against the clutchiest of the clutch, Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. I guess they didn't 'create enough luck' for themselves.

In 14 seasons and including 24 postseason games, that's his defining moment? I barely remember anything about it. Safe to say, it's no Montana to Clark moment.

 

[upstater]

In 14 seasons and including 24 postseason games, that's his defining moment? I barely remember anything about it. Safe to say, it's no Montana to Clark moment.

He played great that game. For many Patriots fans, that game actually hurts more than the Super Bowl losses. The SB losses were deserved, but every once in a while, a game comes along and it gives you a sick feeling for what occurred in all facets. That game was it for a lot of Patriots fans.

 

[Scoe]

Absurd post. It's the nfl. Teams can't tank like you can in the NBA. They "tanked" because peyton got hurt and therefore they sucked. I don't remember them having a fire sale like the Knicks currently are.

The colts won 12 or 13 games every single year for a decade including two potential perfect seasons had it not been for resting guys. Peyton gets hurt and they start 0-14. Coincidence? I think not. And ironically, those two wins you point out were against teams that were resting guys to move up (jags I think and maybe houston) in the last two weeks of the year when "tanking" actually does exist (not for 16 Games).

I would in no way argue that peyton is clutch. But people are crazy for trying to bash him for stinking against an all time great d and yesterday when he's 40 and washed up and playing with a bad leg when he had zero arm strength to begin with and relied almost entirely on his legs. He couldn't even throw a football three years ago and he comes back and wuddya know right away his team wins 13 Games and he's as good as ever. Next year he has the best season ever for a qb in his second year.

He basically never had a good defense. In fact most of them on the colts were downright awful. Let's not forget brady still hasn't won without a top notch d. And the year he went down the pats won 11 games with Matt friggin cassel. Brady is great but belichick is a genius (ask the Ravens) and in my opinion the best coach ever without a doubt. Brady gets too much credit and manning gets way too much heat


Peyton ushered in the new pass heavy open offense uptempo nfl. Barely anyone ever threw 4000 yards before him and now half the guys in the league do including ryan tannehill for God sakes. Manning changed the nfl similar to how jordan changed the NBA where big men no longer exist and everyone wants to play like he did. Finding a qb is basically he sole purpose of every organization and without one you have no chance.

in summary peyton is great. Best ever? Certainty not in the playoffs. But definitely a top 5 qb and anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts

Peytons legacy will be even bigger after he retires, he changed the passing across the NFL, as well as college (except for Uconn of course go figure) and high school, even in the Madden Video games. It appears Dan O knows Peyton pretty well maybe if Dan O is our HC one day he can hire Peyton as qb coach lol.

 

[Mazhude]

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/11/denver-broncos-indianapolis-colts-peyton-manning-2014-nfl-playoffs

Not even 24 hours after a one-and-done playoff appearance, the Broncos and coach John Fox have parted ways. Given that Elway seems to want to shake things up, this does not bode well for Gase as the next coach, and so maybe for Peyton Manning as well. Payton likes continuity and does he really want to learn and have a team work through a new system at this point in his career?

 

[HuskyHawk]

It's the reverse. Brady gets little credit and Peyton gets way too much.

You must have missed the 2003 Super Bowl when the vaunted Patriots defense gave up 29 points in less than 31 minutes. Brady had to throw for one of the highest yardage totals in Super Bowl history, mid 300s, to win that game. But you guys will only credit the D, which got shredded, even though the QB was awesome that day. In fact, you'll even credit the kicker over Brady (I've heard that one a million times) even though the guy missed 2 chip shot field goals.

As for Matt Cassell, the Patriots went from 18 wins the year before to 11. They dropped 7 years. And it was a schedule so weak, that 11-5 wasn't good enough to get them in the playoffs. If they'd managed to win another game against a playoff team, they would have been in, but they just couldn't knock anyone off. As for Cassel, by the way, he went on to post career passing yardage and QB rating highs, AND to make the Pro Bowl, for Kansas City--AFTER he left the Patriots. Yes, Cassel had better numbers at KC than with NE. That's a fact.

All QBs get too much credit. That's the reality. Brady too. He's been great, certainly among the best ever, same as Peyton, Marino, Montana. An under appreciated key to these players is whether the team builds an offense to suit their skills. Both Brady and Manning would have been worse playing for each other's teams, because both offenses were designed for the QBs. Russell Wilson can win in Seattle because he doesn't need to do much. His skills open up the running game, and avoid putting that defense in a position to defend a short field.

If Belichick deserves credit for anything, it is identifying players for his systems. Too many teams, especially those with frequent management turnover, are terrible at it.

 

[upstater]

All QBs get too much credit. That's the reality. Brady too. He's been great, certainly among the best ever, same as Peyton, Marino, Montana. An under appreciated key to these players is whether the team builds an offense to suit their skills. Both Brady and Manning would have been worse playing for each other's teams, because both offenses were designed for the QBs. Russell Wilson can win in Seattle because he doesn't need to do much. His skills open up the running game, and avoid putting that defense in a position to defend a short field.

If Belichick deserves credit for anything, it is identifying players for his systems. Too many teams, especially those with frequent management turnover, are terrible at it.

As they say, it's a QBs game.

You can have all world guys, like in Buffalo with that defense. But with Orton behind center, you go nowehre.

Belichick has figured out that with a good QB, you can basically pick up WRs and OL off the street (because the QB will make the WRs better, and the OL just needs to hold a block for 2 seconds), while putting your resources into the defense.

Defenses must play team football.

On offense, it's all about the QB. I firmly believe this.

I've seen too many David Pattens, David Givenses, Deion Branches, Reche Caldwells, Donte Stallworths, Jabar Gaffneys, and now Brandon LaFells have huge success in New England, while they were average at best elsewhere. Heck, Caldwell was a street free agent.

Then you look at the interior OL. You have people like Peter King lauding them for giving Brady time, and others have said the New England OL is spectacular, but the guys playing against Baltimore this week are street free agents, undrafteds, castoffs. Heck, Josh Kline might be the worst guard in all of football. But when your QB is getting rid of the ball in under 2 seconds, and placing it in precise pot for maximum YAC, then you can get away with just about anyone playing interior OL.

 

[noeynox]

As they say, it's a QBs game.

You can have all world guys, like in Buffalo with that defense. But with Orton behind center, you go nowehre.

Belichick has figured out that with a good QB, you can basically pick up WRs and OL off the street (because the QB will make the WRs better, and the OL just needs to hold a block for 2 seconds), while putting your resources into the defense.

Defenses must play team football.

On offense, it's all about the QB. I firmly believe this.

I've seen too many David Pattens, David Givenses, Deion Branches, Reche Caldwells, Donte Stallworths, Jabar Gaffneys, and now Brandon LaFells have huge success in New England, while they were average at best elsewhere. Heck, Caldwell was a street free agent.

Then you look at the interior OL. You have people like Peter King lauding them for giving Brady time, and others have said the New England OL is spectacular, but the guys playing against Baltimore this week are street free agents, undrafteds, castoffs. Heck, Josh Kline might be the worst guard in all of football. But when your QB is getting rid of the ball in under 2 seconds, and placing it in precise pot for maximum YAC, then you can get away with just about anyone playing interior OL.

We have a winner. David Givens and Dion Branch did nothing when they left the Pats. I think because of Belichek, people are reluctant to give Brady credit, but in Cleveland, and one season with Bledsoe as the starter, BB was less than a HOF. The one constant has been Brady. He walked off the field late in the game in both SB losses to the Giants just having given his team the lead and his defenses couldn't finish it. It's why I give Eli so much credit. He had to engineer game winning drives late in the fourth quarter two times in the MOST pressured filled game of all and did so against Brady and the Pats.

 

[champs99and04]

This idea that Brady doesn't need good receivers and o-lineman to be successful is pretty strange. Every quarterback does.

 

[HuskyHawk]

As they say, it's a QBs game.

You can have all world guys, like in Buffalo with that defense. But with Orton behind center, you go nowehre.

Belichick has figured out that with a good QB, you can basically pick up WRs and OL off the street (because the QB will make the WRs better, and the OL just needs to hold a block for 2 seconds), while putting your resources into the defense.

Defenses must play team football.

On offense, it's all about the QB. I firmly believe this.

I've seen too many David Pattens, David Givenses, Deion Branches, Reche Caldwells, Donte Stallworths, Jabar Gaffneys, and now Brandon LaFells have huge success in New England, while they were average at best elsewhere. Heck, Caldwell was a street free agent.

Then you look at the interior OL. You have people like Peter King lauding them for giving Brady time, and others have said the New England OL is spectacular, but the guys playing against Baltimore this week are street free agents, undrafteds, castoffs. Heck, Josh Kline might be the worst guard in all of football. But when your QB is getting rid of the ball in under 2 seconds, and placing it in precise pot for maximum YAC, then you can get away with just about anyone playing interior OL.

Somebody is lauding the Patriots' OL? I've seen nothing but negatives about it all year. Not sure what you are talking about on "street free agent" as both tackles and the center (this year) were 1st or 2nd round draft picks. Mankins was 1st rounder before being traded. Brady was holding the ball far too long early in the year, and that was the biggest issue in the offense along with horrible OL play. He did not get much time against Baltimore, and didn't get rid of the ball quickly enough.

Certainly the QB is the most critical position on the team. No doubt. But a great QB can't win with a weak team around him. A great team can win with a weak QB. Seattle did last year. Baltimore did with Trent Dilfer. Mark Rypien was no great QB, had a fantastic running game. Freaking Brad Johnson won a superbowl behind a dominant defense.

 

[HuskyHawk]

This idea that Brady doesn't need good receivers and o-lineman to be successful is pretty strange. Every quarterback does.

If you read about Brady's approach and they system NE runs, it becomes clear what works and doesn't. It's not pure talent, good receivers have come here and didn't do squat. Pats receivers go elsewhere and don't do squat. The key to the WR play is whether that person can read the defense exactly as Brady does. Right, wrong, that doesn't matter...the same as Brady is what matters. If you don't, you won't adjust the way Tom wants you to, and he won't get you the ball. Early in the season, with Gronk limited, Brady had one guy on the same page with him, Edelman. And he got nearly every ball. Lafell and Brady finally clicked, Gronk got healthy and Brady even started trusting Amendola (Brady ignored him even when wide open earlier in the year).

I've heard other QBs say they don't play this way. It's the reason so many WRs fail in NE, and a guy like Branch can come back after sucking in Seattle and be productive.

 

[Kitaman]

I know this is about Peyton but in one of the posts Elway was briefly mentioned. I will say if you needed a winning or tie score with the last possession then Elway ranks as one of the greatest. He was a miracle worker (like the other greats), but you could never turn the TV off at the end of the game if Denver needed to score and Elway had the ball.

If that ain't clutch then I don't know what is.

 

[upstater]

Somebody is lauding the Patriots' OL? I've seen nothing but negatives about it all year. Not sure what you are talking about on "street free agent" as both tackles and the center (this year) were 1st or 2nd round draft picks. Mankins was 1st rounder before being traded. Brady was holding the ball far too long early in the year, and that was the biggest issue in the offense along with horrible OL play. He did not get much time against Baltimore, and didn't get rid of the ball quickly enough.

Certainly the QB is the most critical position on the team. No doubt. But a great QB can't win with a weak team around him. A great team can win with a weak QB. Seattle did last year. Baltimore did with Trent Dilfer. Mark Rypien was no great QB, had a fantastic running game. Freaking Brad Johnson won a superbowl behind a dominant defense.

Specifically, Peter King was lauding the OL for their protection. Logan Mankins isn't with the team any more. And no Bryan Stork was not a 1st or 2nd rounder, he was a 5th round rookie. AND, he got hurt the other night, MCL. Josh Kilne took his place in the first qtr. Street free agent means a guy that is trying to hang on in the league with a min. contract. A guy without a team. UConn's own Daniel Thomas, for instance, was a street free agent. The Patriots have had a great deal of these guys, people who were on the outside looking in. Andruzzi, Grant Williams, Stephen Neal, Mike Compton, many others, and now Ryan Wendell and Dan Connolly. Together with Kline.

 

[upstater]

This idea that Brady doesn't need good receivers and o-lineman to be successful is pretty strange. Every quarterback does.

It may seem strange, but what did Givens and Branch do without Brady? What did a guy like Patten, Stallworth, Gaffney, Caldwell, Welker do before and after Brady? Now we're seeing it with LaFell. These were not good receivers in the NFL outside of playing with Brady. Branch was average in Seattle. Givens did nothing in Tenn. Patten did nothing with the Giants. Stallworth, Gaffney and Caldwell spent time outside the NFL begging for someone to pick them up.

 

[kibblesnbits]

Somebody is lauding the Patriots' OL? I've seen nothing but negatives about it all year. Not sure what you are talking about on "street free agent" as both tackles and the center (this year) were 1st or 2nd round draft picks. Mankins was 1st rounder before being traded. Brady was holding the ball far too long early in the year, and that was the biggest issue in the offense along with horrible OL play. He did not get much time against Baltimore, and didn't get rid of the ball quickly enough.

Certainly the QB is the most critical position on the team. No doubt. But a great QB can't win with a weak team around him. A great team can win with a weak QB. Seattle did last year. Baltimore did with Trent Dilfer. Mark Rypien was no great QB, had a fantastic running game. Freaking Brad Johnson won a superbowl behind a dominant defense.

The Patriots center this year is a rookie 4th rounder (who got hurt in the first half against Baltimore and was replaced with a former undrafted free agent). The guards were both undrafted free agents and the backup tackle that has gotten quite a bit of time since the starters have been injury prone is a former 6th rounder. The Pats are undoubtedly in the bottom 3rd in terms of draft resources applied to the offensive line.

If you read about Brady's approach and they system NE runs, it becomes clear what works and doesn't. It's not pure talent, good receivers have come here and didn't do squat. Pats receivers go elsewhere and don't do squat. The key to the WR play is whether that person can read the defense exactly as Brady does. Right, wrong, that doesn't matter...the same as Brady is what matters. If you don't, you won't adjust the way Tom wants you to, and he won't get you the ball. Early in the season, with Gronk limited, Brady had one guy on the same page with him, Edelman. And he got nearly every ball. Lafell and Brady finally clicked, Gronk got healthy and Brady even started trusting Amendola (Brady ignored him even when wide open earlier in the year).

I've heard other QBs say they don't play this way. It's the reason so many WRs fail in NE, and a guy like Branch can come back after sucking in Seattle and be productive.

They have to read things the same as Brady because the majority of the passing plays use option routes. While all teams use some option routes, many receivers have said the Patriots scheme is the most complicated they've had to learn..

 

[mauconnfan]

It's the reverse. Brady gets little credit and Peyton gets way too much.

You must have missed the 2003 Super Bowl when the vaunted Patriots defense gave up 29 points in less than 31 minutes. Brady had to throw for one of the highest yardage totals in Super Bowl history, mid 300s, to win that game. But you guys will only credit the D, which got shredded, even though the QB was awesome that day. In fact, you'll even credit the kicker over Brady (I've heard that one a million times) even though the guy missed 2 chip shot field goals.

As for Matt Cassell, the Patriots went from 18 wins the year before to 11. They dropped 7 years. And it was a schedule so weak, that 11-5 wasn't good enough to get them in the playoffs. If they'd managed to win another game against a playoff team, they would have been in, but they just couldn't knock anyone off. As for Cassel, by the way, he went on to post career passing yardage and QB rating highs, AND to make the Pro Bowl, for Kansas City--AFTER he left the Patriots. Yes, Cassel had better numbers at KC than with NE. That's a fact.

upstater you're being way too big of a homer to think that anyone gets more credit than Peyton. If anything they both get too much! Thing is they both deserve it.

 

[mauconnfan]

As they say, it's a QBs game.

You can have all world guys, like in Buffalo with that defense. But with Orton behind center, you go nowehre.

Belichick has figured out that with a good QB, you can basically pick up WRs and OL off the street (because the QB will make the WRs better, and the OL just needs to hold a block for 2 seconds), while putting your resources into the defense.

Defenses must play team football.

On offense, it's all about the QB. I firmly believe this.

I've seen too many David Pattens, David Givenses, Deion Branches, Reche Caldwells, Donte Stallworths, Jabar Gaffneys, and now Brandon LaFells have huge success in New England, while they were average at best elsewhere. Heck, Caldwell was a street free agent.

Then you look at the interior OL. You have people like Peter King lauding them for giving Brady time, and others have said the New England OL is spectacular, but the guys playing against Baltimore this week are street free agents, undrafteds, castoffs. Heck, Josh Kline might be the worst guard in all of football. But when your QB is getting rid of the ball in under 2 seconds, and placing it in precise pot for maximum YAC, then you can get away with just about anyone playing interior OL.

HOMER.....you are out of control. The guys one of the best but fans like this make it close to despicable.

 

[upstater]

HOMER.....you are out of control. The guys one of the best but fans like this make it close to despicable.

Hater!

 

[upstater]

HOMER.....you are out of control. The guys one of the best but fans like this make it close to despicable.

By the way, you guys keep saying I'm outlandish, and yet I've laid it out for you. I've listed 10 receivers and 10 starting lineman for them that were scrap heap guys.

It is an absolute fact that they are scrap heap guys. Randy Moss? Well, no, they picked him up for a 4th and he is proven. Too bad they only had one year together.

Again, if you're going to say I'm crazy for noting the Patriots have had afterthoughts at WR and OL, then prove it. This is what I'm doing. I'm actually listing the guys.

 

[David 76]

Both of them are great QBs. No one has said any less of Brady. But the Peyton bashing is silly.He has struggled in playoffs. If not, if he had won one or two more, he would have a lot of people saying he is the best ever. Instead, he is only one of the 5 best QBs in history. So is Brady.
Bashing one to defend the other is silly. They are both up there with Montana, Unitas and Marino (or is it Elway?)

 

[John]

To me, Marino is the one that's extremely difficult to rank.

 

[David 76]

There have been a lot of great QBs that don't make that very top list
Favre
Staubach
Young
Otto Graham
Bradshaw
Starr
Aikman
Jurgenson
Moon

 

[jleves]

Both of them are great QBs. No one has said any less of Brady. But the Peyton bashing is silly.He has struggled in playoffs. If not, if he had won one or two more, he would have a lot of people saying he is the best ever. Instead, he is only one of the 5 best QBs in history. So is Brady.
Bashing one to defend the other is silly. They are both up there with Montana, Unitas and Marino (or is it Elway?)

I really want to start a thread rating your top 5 QB list - but it will get lost tonight in game threads and reactions - so I'll post it tomorrow. It's tough to rank the top 5 as I try to go through it in my head.

 

[John]

There have been a lot of great QBs that don't make that very top list
Favre
Staubach
Young
Otto Graham
Bradshaw
Starr
Aikman
Jurgenson
Moon

or even guys that were great but didn't last that long like Kurt Warner.

 

[upstater]

HOMER.....you are out of control. The guys one of the best but fans like this make it close to despicable.

Read this and tell me I'm wrong about people downplaying the guy's career:

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2015/01/ray_lewis_the_only_reason_we_k.html

And how in the world can Ray Lewis play football and not know the arm going forward makes it an incomplete pass?

 

[Dogdeacon]

I don't understand the extremes of the arguments at all. Obviously Peyton Manning is in the conversation about best QBs of all time, so just because his postseason team record is bad that doesn't mean he sucks or anyone is saying he sucks. Yet it is abundantly clear that although Peyton is/was among the best of all time in the regular season his performance at a minimum is not as extraordinary and he doesn't step it up (especially by his own high standards) in the postseason. Similarly but opposite just because Eli has had some great postseasons that doesn't make him the among the best QB's of all time.

Sports radio & message boards create & thrive within the construct where everyone has to pick one extreme or the other, and this works best when the truth is likely in the middle so the debate can rage on interminably.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Are people really taking issue with the idea that Brady has made some pretty mediocre to poor receivers - who went on to do absolutely nothing when they left New England - look very, very good? That's a controversy? I just assumed that was universally accepted as true.

 

[mets1090]

Are people really taking issue with the idea that Brady has made some pretty mediocre to poor receivers - who went on to do absolutely nothing when they left New England - look very, very good? That's a controversy? I just assumed that was universally accepted as true.

I'm pretty sure it is accepted by 99% of people. I don't know anyone who wouldn't agree.

Brady and Belichek have come together over the last decade and a half to form the perfect QB/system match. It matters far less who they have at WR than it does to any other successful team. It's almost plug and play.

I've always been curious to see what Brady's career would look like if he played for a different coach. Of course he would still be one of the greatest but I don't think you can deny the system is a perfect match for him.

 

[upstater]

I'm pretty sure it is accepted by 99% of people. I don't know anyone who wouldn't agree.

Brady and Belichek have come together over the last decade and a half to form the perfect QB/system match. It matters far less who they have at WR than it does to any other successful team. It's almost plug and play.

I've always been curious to see what Brady's career would look like if he played for a different coach. Of course he would still be one of the greatest but I don't think you can deny the system is a perfect match for him.

People seem to have taken exception to it above.