OT- Peyton

[noeynox]

Better no, more clutch in crunch time, i think so. That said, yesterdays performance by Peyton had more to do with a guy whose gas tank only has fumes left.

 

[noeynox]

Eli also had 2 balls that should have been picked on that drive. Most times there is a fine line between hero and goat.

Oh I no. But he shook it off and delivered. Asante Samuel should have had a pick six.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/554667776384589824

Apparently he had a torn quad in his plant leg for the past month.

 

[Danzz]

Of course, the problem with this logic is that you arrive at the "outstanding career" conclusion without the "team game" concept, right?
That is, you look at his regular season stats, and you think, "wow, this guy is great." But then you look at his abysmal post season choke record and you say, "we can ignore that, it's a team game."

What you've essentially done is credit him individually with his regular season performance and blame his team for his post season performance.

Can't have it both ways.

No, not really. I think Dan Marino was the best passer of all time but he never won anything. Archie Manning was pretty darn good too and I'm sure there are others that don't come to mind. I'm not excusing Peyton's poor playoff record but you have to look at the teams he was playing against in the playoffs vs. the regular season. Did he choke or did his defense put him in a hole too deep and did his OL protect him? Whatever the answer is I agree that he should have won more playoffs than he did. Still, he was a pretty damn good QB.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Every time I hear Tony Dungy talk about anything, I'm amazed that Peyton was able to win as much as he did with that clown as a head coach.

 

[Scoe]

Eli isn't consistent like Peyton but he does have the clutch gene that Peyton doesn't have. Sure no one qb has ever won a Super Bowl by himself, but you can't discount what Eli did in both those Super Bowl runs. You can't go by purely the number of points and yards put up those numbers go down in the playoffs. I think it does help to have ugly offensive games during the regular season to see your team battle tested and face some adversity.

07
Eli wins at Dallas, leads the Giants on a gw drive, wins at Lambeau field in -20 degree weather, virtually leads them on a game winning drive 3 times (Tynes misses 2 gw kicks in regulation). In the Super Bowl no one talks about this the 1st drive of the game Eli completes about 3 3rd down conversions, which was huge in keeping Brady and that offense off the field, that drive took almost the whole 1st quarter.

11
Eli was a top 5 qb that year. He outplays Aaron Rodgers in GB in his MVP season when the Packers went 15-1 that year, in SF against that defense he was beaten into the ground, how would Peyton have done against that D, its not always what you do in those games its what you don't do, that game was the defacto Super Bowl that year.

 

[Scoe]

Oh I no. But he shook it off and delivered. Asante Samuel should have had a pick six.

and the one pick he had in that postseason went off Steve Smith's hands, which was gonna be a 1st down. What is Shabazz final legacy if not for Brimah's 3 point play, you know he grabbed Shabazz miss there.

 

[Danzz]

Eli isn't consistent like Peyton but he does have the clutch gene that Peyton doesn't have. Sure no one qb has ever won a Super Bowl by himself, but you can't discount what Eli did in both those Super Bowl runs. You can't go by purely the number of points and yards put up those numbers go down in the playoffs. I think it does help to have ugly offensive games during the regular season to see your team battle tested and face some adversity.

07
Eli wins at Dallas, leads the Giants on a gw drive, wins at Lambeau field in -20 degree weather, virtually leads them on a game winning drive 3 times (Tynes misses 2 gw kicks in regulation). In the Super Bowl no one talks about this the 1st drive of the game Eli completes about 3 3rd down conversions, which was huge in keeping Brady and that offense off the field, that drive took almost the whole 1st quarter.

11
Eli was a top 5 qb that year. He outplays Aaron Rodgers in GB in his MVP season when the Packers went 15-1 that year, in SF against that defense he was beaten into the ground, how would Peyton have done against that D, its not always what you do in those games its what you don't do, that game was the defacto Super Bowl that year.

So if you were taking over an NFL team , who would you take in their prime, Peyton or Eli?

 

[Dogdeacon]

2015-16 is a very strange spot for the Broncos. They are almost guaranteed to have a better regular season and chance of making the playoffs with Manning, but then its pretty evident his arm strength and age make him unlikely to win in the playoffs. And Manning likely is banged up come playoff time and less effective in cold, without even getting into his playoff record. I think they will dump him because at $20M their chances to win it all with him are too low.

Weird outcome would be for the Giants to sign him and use Peyton as regular season QB and Eli for the postseason!

 

[Scoe]

So if you were taking over an NFL team , who would you take in their prime, Peyton or Eli?

Who do you think? I definitely take Peyton. I would take the guarantee though 2 superbowls and a bunch of inconsistent seasons over making the playoffs every year and winning 1 Super Bowl, I would rather miss the playoffs then go 12-4,13-3,14-2 every year and lose 1st game of the playoffs.

If I don't know the future, because you never know its sports especially single elimination, then I take Peyton. How about this I take Peyton in the regular season and have Eli play in the playoffs. If I know the future I take the 2 superbowls any day. Its better to make the playoffs then not making it but it definitely feels worse to lose the 1st game of the playoffs with a top seed then to miss the playoffs.

 

[upstater]

No, not really. I think Dan Marino was the best passer of all time but he never won anything. Archie Manning was pretty darn good too and I'm sure there are others that don't come to mind. I'm not excusing Peyton's poor playoff record but you have to look at the teams he was playing against in the playoffs vs. the regular season. Did he choke or did his defense put him in a hole too deep and did his OL protect him? Whatever the answer is I agree that he should have won more playoffs than he did. Still, he was a pretty damn good QB.

For me the most telling thing is that he threw very bad interceptions at crucial times, multiple INTs. When you throw a bad INT that leads to a TD in the playoffs, you practically have to be perfect the rest of the game.

And the games he lost were not of the high scoring variety. That Colts team lost many games when they scored 14 points or less. And they had decent running games with Edgerrin James, not to mention Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark.

 

[Deepster]

2015-16 is a very strange spot for the Broncos. They are almost guaranteed to have a better regular season and chance of making the playoffs with Manning, but then its pretty evident his arm strength and age make him unlikely to win in the playoffs. And Manning likely is banged up come playoff time and less effective in cold, without even getting into his playoff record. I think they will dump him because at $20M their chances to win it all with him are too low.

Weird outcome would be for the Giants to sign him and use Peyton as regular season QB and Eli for the postseason!

Plus, how many free agents are going to there knowing they have Peyton for maybe 1 more year and, in that year, his skills have taken a drop? It might hurt the Broncos for a few more years to roll the dice on him for next season.

 

[mauconnfan]

Eli also had 2 balls that should have been picked on that drive. Most times there is a fine line between hero and goat.

You could say that about every QB weak argument there. Good players create their own "luck".

 

[intlzncster]

People who are saying there's no such thing as clutch players are out of there minds. If you played sports at any reasonable level, you could have identified guys like that easily. Even looking at in the opposite, I can still remember guys who consistently wilted under pressure. It stands to reason that there'd be guys on the other end of the spectrum as well. Some guys wilt, some guys rise up, more consistently than others.

I argued with a bunch of guys about Jeter, but you'd have to be mad to say that guy wasn't clutch. Way more so than one of his highly talented peers Arod.

Note, this doesn't mean they ALWAYS perform, or always win. No one does.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

People who are saying there's no such thing as clutch players are out of there minds. If you played sports at any reasonable level, you could have identified guys like that easily. Even looking at in the opposite, I can still remember guys who consistently wilted under pressure. It stands to reason that there'd be guys on the other end of the spectrum as well. Some guys wilt, some guys rise up, more consistently than others.

I argued with a bunch of guys about Jeter, but you'd have to be mad to say that guy wasn't clutch. Way more so than one of his highly talented peers Arod.

Note, this doesn't mean they ALWAYS perform, or always win. No one does.

No one said that to my knowledge.

 

[CallMeBruce]

People who are saying there's no such thing as clutch players are out of there minds. If you played sports at any reasonable level, you could have identified guys like that easily. Even looking at in the opposite, I can still remember guys who consistently wilted under pressure. It stands to reason that there'd be guys on the other end of the spectrum as well. Some guys wilt, some guys rise up, more consistently than others.

I argued with a bunch of guys about Jeter, but you'd have to be mad to say that guy wasn't clutch. Way more so than one of his highly talented peers Arod.

Note, this doesn't mean they ALWAYS perform, or always win. No one does.

Jeter's career postseason stats are almost identical to his career regular season stats, and his C&L numbers aren't noteworthy. Jeter had lots of clutch hits, but I think that the idea that he became a better hitter in a critical situation is absurd. Where were those skills the rest of the time? Was he just not trying if it wasn't a big enough situation?

 

[intlzncster]

Jeter's career postseason stats are almost identical to his career regular season stats, and his C&L numbers aren't noteworthy. Jeter had lots of clutch hits, but I think that the idea that he became a better hitter in a critical situation is absurd. Where were those skills the rest of the time? Was he just not trying if it wasn't a big enough situation?

As others pointed out in the previous thread, most players numbers drop in the post season (ostensibly because you face consistently better pitching and each moment takes on more importance). Jeter's numbers didn't really drop, ergo he performed better than most. Anyway, I don't want to get into Jeter discussion.

 

[CallMeBruce]

As others pointed out in the previous thread, most players numbers drop in the post season (ostensibly because you face consistently better pitching and each moment takes on more importance). Jeter's numbers didn't really drop, ergo he performed better than most. Anyway, I don't want to get into Jeter discussion.

Then why did you bring up Jeter?

 

[intlzncster]

No one said that to my knowledge.

Ok, not explicitly, but you sort of implied it. At least you said it's unimportant (unless by the "it factor" you meant something else). Talent is obviously important, but the ability to make players around you better, the ability to lead (eg Shabazz), is probably underrated; there's obviously more to it.

Some guys are just winners and lift everyone else up. In my opinion, no position in sports has as much importance in terms of those qualities, on a game in game out basis, as the quarterback position.

Yes, I'm aware of that these things are 'cliches', but there's also a large element of truth to them. Ask any former big time player, and I'm sure they'd agree.

 

[intlzncster]

Then why did you bring up Jeter?

Simply as an example, because the numbers support the idea (almost no dropoff in play, compared with the opposite result for most other players). The way of the Boneyard is to now go into a whole discussion of baseball, so I was heading that off at the pass. I thought about using Shabazz as an example. But I didn't want to dredge up and analyze (in context) the numbers.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Ok, not explicitly, but you sort of implied it. At least you said it's unimportant (unless by the "it factor" you meant something else). Talent is obviously important, but the ability to make players around you better, the ability to lead (eg Shabazz), is probably underrated; there's obviously more to it.

Some guys are just winners and lift everyone else up. In my opinion, no position in sports has as much importance in terms of those qualities, on a game in game out basis, as the quarterback position.

Yes, I'm aware of that these things are 'cliches', but there's also a large element of truth to them. Ask any former big time player, and I'm sure they'd agree.

I said it was generally overstated by fans (which it most certainly is). The rest are your own inferences and are incorrect when it comes to my position.

 

[Mots010]

As a bronco fan since their first s.Super Bowl against the Cowboys in the mid 70's (Orange Crush baby - Alzado, Carter, Chaviois, TJ and Gradishar) - I was a contraian everyone in my elementary school wanted the Cowboys so I adopted the donkeys Also a University of Tennessee football fan (that's a longer story) I have a sense of Bronco and UT history and futility and I said when Peyton signed that it's was a bit of fools gold. In the big spot he's doesn't appear to be the same guy. Remember UT won the national title the year after Peyton left with Tee Martin at QB, who was a good qb but not in the same league as Peyton. I saw Elway do amazing things with a serviceable cast to just get to three Super Bowl and get crushed in those games (finally winning two) but there was something about Elway maybe it was the way he did it I always had a sliver of hope. Of course when the games were out of reach that hope evaporated as it would with any sane person. I never had that with Peyton as QB and I don't know why."

It's a fine line though. Terrell Davis carried those championship teams on his back. Elway's stats in Super Bowl XXXII were horrible, but handing it off to TD for 160 yards and 3 TDs helps. Without him, the Elway story likely isnt so great. But he was and Elway's legacy was sealed.

 

[Robertelamin]

Do you really want me to outline his playoff failures in greater detail? I surely can and it's not pretty. He's a paper tiger.

Yeah why not, go for it.

 

[Northbound]

It's a fine line though. Terrell Davis carried those championship teams on his back. Elway's stats in Super Bowl XXXII were horrible, but handing it off to TD for 160 yards and 3 TDs helps. Without him, the Elway story likely isnt so great. But he was and Elway's legacy was sealed.

I'm well aware of Davis, carried on his back may be a bit to strong It would have been different for sure, but it wouldn't be the guy that couldn't come through in the clutch. He'd done it too often in high pressure spots and dragged teams that were far inferior to Super Bowls.

 

[Devland]

An ironic thing in the Patriots Super Bowl against Carolina Adam Vinatieri was considered clutch for making the game winning field goal. But before he kicked that field goal he was 0 for 2 in FG attempts in that game, missing from 31 and 36. If he makes one of those two he doesn't get the chance to be "clutch".