OT- Peyton

[upstater]

No, not really. I think Dan Marino was the best passer of all time but he never won anything. Archie Manning was pretty darn good too and I'm sure there are others that don't come to mind. I'm not excusing Peyton's poor playoff record but you have to look at the teams he was playing against in the playoffs vs. the regular season. Did he choke or did his defense put him in a hole too deep and did his OL protect him? Whatever the answer is I agree that he should have won more playoffs than he did. Still, he was a pretty damn good QB.

For me the most telling thing is that he threw very bad interceptions at crucial times, multiple INTs. When you throw a bad INT that leads to a TD in the playoffs, you practically have to be perfect the rest of the game.

And the games he lost were not of the high scoring variety. That Colts team lost many games when they scored 14 points or less. And they had decent running games with Edgerrin James, not to mention Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark.

 

[Deepster]

2015-16 is a very strange spot for the Broncos. They are almost guaranteed to have a better regular season and chance of making the playoffs with Manning, but then its pretty evident his arm strength and age make him unlikely to win in the playoffs. And Manning likely is banged up come playoff time and less effective in cold, without even getting into his playoff record. I think they will dump him because at $20M their chances to win it all with him are too low.

Weird outcome would be for the Giants to sign him and use Peyton as regular season QB and Eli for the postseason!

Plus, how many free agents are going to there knowing they have Peyton for maybe 1 more year and, in that year, his skills have taken a drop? It might hurt the Broncos for a few more years to roll the dice on him for next season.

 

[mauconnfan]

Eli also had 2 balls that should have been picked on that drive. Most times there is a fine line between hero and goat.

You could say that about every QB weak argument there. Good players create their own "luck".

 

[intlzncster]

People who are saying there's no such thing as clutch players are out of there minds. If you played sports at any reasonable level, you could have identified guys like that easily. Even looking at in the opposite, I can still remember guys who consistently wilted under pressure. It stands to reason that there'd be guys on the other end of the spectrum as well. Some guys wilt, some guys rise up, more consistently than others.

I argued with a bunch of guys about Jeter, but you'd have to be mad to say that guy wasn't clutch. Way more so than one of his highly talented peers Arod.

Note, this doesn't mean they ALWAYS perform, or always win. No one does.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

People who are saying there's no such thing as clutch players are out of there minds. If you played sports at any reasonable level, you could have identified guys like that easily. Even looking at in the opposite, I can still remember guys who consistently wilted under pressure. It stands to reason that there'd be guys on the other end of the spectrum as well. Some guys wilt, some guys rise up, more consistently than others.

I argued with a bunch of guys about Jeter, but you'd have to be mad to say that guy wasn't clutch. Way more so than one of his highly talented peers Arod.

Note, this doesn't mean they ALWAYS perform, or always win. No one does.

No one said that to my knowledge.

 

[CallMeBruce]

People who are saying there's no such thing as clutch players are out of there minds. If you played sports at any reasonable level, you could have identified guys like that easily. Even looking at in the opposite, I can still remember guys who consistently wilted under pressure. It stands to reason that there'd be guys on the other end of the spectrum as well. Some guys wilt, some guys rise up, more consistently than others.

I argued with a bunch of guys about Jeter, but you'd have to be mad to say that guy wasn't clutch. Way more so than one of his highly talented peers Arod.

Note, this doesn't mean they ALWAYS perform, or always win. No one does.

Jeter's career postseason stats are almost identical to his career regular season stats, and his C&L numbers aren't noteworthy. Jeter had lots of clutch hits, but I think that the idea that he became a better hitter in a critical situation is absurd. Where were those skills the rest of the time? Was he just not trying if it wasn't a big enough situation?

 

[intlzncster]

Jeter's career postseason stats are almost identical to his career regular season stats, and his C&L numbers aren't noteworthy. Jeter had lots of clutch hits, but I think that the idea that he became a better hitter in a critical situation is absurd. Where were those skills the rest of the time? Was he just not trying if it wasn't a big enough situation?

As others pointed out in the previous thread, most players numbers drop in the post season (ostensibly because you face consistently better pitching and each moment takes on more importance). Jeter's numbers didn't really drop, ergo he performed better than most. Anyway, I don't want to get into Jeter discussion.

 

[CallMeBruce]

As others pointed out in the previous thread, most players numbers drop in the post season (ostensibly because you face consistently better pitching and each moment takes on more importance). Jeter's numbers didn't really drop, ergo he performed better than most. Anyway, I don't want to get into Jeter discussion.

Then why did you bring up Jeter?

 

[intlzncster]

No one said that to my knowledge.

Ok, not explicitly, but you sort of implied it. At least you said it's unimportant (unless by the "it factor" you meant something else). Talent is obviously important, but the ability to make players around you better, the ability to lead (eg Shabazz), is probably underrated; there's obviously more to it.

Some guys are just winners and lift everyone else up. In my opinion, no position in sports has as much importance in terms of those qualities, on a game in game out basis, as the quarterback position.

Yes, I'm aware of that these things are 'cliches', but there's also a large element of truth to them. Ask any former big time player, and I'm sure they'd agree.

 

[intlzncster]

Then why did you bring up Jeter?

Simply as an example, because the numbers support the idea (almost no dropoff in play, compared with the opposite result for most other players). The way of the Boneyard is to now go into a whole discussion of baseball, so I was heading that off at the pass. I thought about using Shabazz as an example. But I didn't want to dredge up and analyze (in context) the numbers.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Ok, not explicitly, but you sort of implied it. At least you said it's unimportant (unless by the "it factor" you meant something else). Talent is obviously important, but the ability to make players around you better, the ability to lead (eg Shabazz), is probably underrated; there's obviously more to it.

Some guys are just winners and lift everyone else up. In my opinion, no position in sports has as much importance in terms of those qualities, on a game in game out basis, as the quarterback position.

Yes, I'm aware of that these things are 'cliches', but there's also a large element of truth to them. Ask any former big time player, and I'm sure they'd agree.

I said it was generally overstated by fans (which it most certainly is). The rest are your own inferences and are incorrect when it comes to my position.

 

[Mots010]

As a bronco fan since their first s.Super Bowl against the Cowboys in the mid 70's (Orange Crush baby - Alzado, Carter, Chaviois, TJ and Gradishar) - I was a contraian everyone in my elementary school wanted the Cowboys so I adopted the donkeys Also a University of Tennessee football fan (that's a longer story) I have a sense of Bronco and UT history and futility and I said when Peyton signed that it's was a bit of fools gold. In the big spot he's doesn't appear to be the same guy. Remember UT won the national title the year after Peyton left with Tee Martin at QB, who was a good qb but not in the same league as Peyton. I saw Elway do amazing things with a serviceable cast to just get to three Super Bowl and get crushed in those games (finally winning two) but there was something about Elway maybe it was the way he did it I always had a sliver of hope. Of course when the games were out of reach that hope evaporated as it would with any sane person. I never had that with Peyton as QB and I don't know why."

It's a fine line though. Terrell Davis carried those championship teams on his back. Elway's stats in Super Bowl XXXII were horrible, but handing it off to TD for 160 yards and 3 TDs helps. Without him, the Elway story likely isnt so great. But he was and Elway's legacy was sealed.

 

[Robertelamin]

Do you really want me to outline his playoff failures in greater detail? I surely can and it's not pretty. He's a paper tiger.

Yeah why not, go for it.

 

[Northbound]

It's a fine line though. Terrell Davis carried those championship teams on his back. Elway's stats in Super Bowl XXXII were horrible, but handing it off to TD for 160 yards and 3 TDs helps. Without him, the Elway story likely isnt so great. But he was and Elway's legacy was sealed.

I'm well aware of Davis, carried on his back may be a bit to strong It would have been different for sure, but it wouldn't be the guy that couldn't come through in the clutch. He'd done it too often in high pressure spots and dragged teams that were far inferior to Super Bowls.

 

[Devland]

An ironic thing in the Patriots Super Bowl against Carolina Adam Vinatieri was considered clutch for making the game winning field goal. But before he kicked that field goal he was 0 for 2 in FG attempts in that game, missing from 31 and 36. If he makes one of those two he doesn't get the chance to be "clutch".

 

[Deepster]

Yeah why not, go for it.

1. First and foremost, as mentioned, he's 11-13 with 9 one and done efforts.
   
2. Of those 9 one and dones, 6 of them were home games.
3. In his 3 Super Bowl Appearances, he's averaged 30 for 44 for 287 yds, 1 TD and 1.33 INT.
4. His 3 Super Bowls are:
   
   31 for 45, 333 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT (W over Chi)
   25 for 38, 247 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT (L to NO)
   34 for 49, 280 yds, 1 TD, 2 INT (L to Sea)
   
   In those two losses, his Pick 6 to Darren Sharper against NO and his awful half against Seattle last year are flat out playoff gag jobs. FYI - The first half against Seattle, Denver's drives were Safety, Punt, Int, Int, Turnover on Downs. Coming off a year he threw for 55 TD's and 5,477 yds.
5. He has lost, at home, to Mark Sanchez, Chad Pennington and Jay Fiedler. His SB win was against Rex Grossman.
6. Since his SB win in 2006, he's 4-7 in the postseason with FIVE one and done efforts (4 of those were at home).

What am I missing? Overall his performance dips statistically. The one and dones, especially at home, go against the odds and home field advantage in the postseason. His big game performances have been flat out BAD on the biggest stage. He's lost to lesser QB led teams.

Let's flip the switch. Give me a couple postseason highlights or memorable moments he's famous for? What is his signature postseason calling card? There aren't any.

 

[superjohn]

1. First and foremost, as mentioned, he's 11-13 with 9 one and done efforts.
   
2. Of those 9 one and dones, 6 of them were home games.
3. In his 3 Super Bowl Appearances, he's averaged 30 for 44 for 287 yds, 1 TD and 1.33 INT.
4. His 3 Super Bowls are:
   
   31 for 45, 333 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT (W over Chi)
   25 for 38, 247 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT (L to NO)
   34 for 49, 280 yds, 1 TD, 2 INT (L to Sea)
   
   In those two losses, his Pick 6 to Darren Sharper against NO and his awful half against Seattle last year are flat out playoff gag jobs. FYI - The first half against Seattle, Denver's drives were Safety, Punt, Int, Int, Turnover on Downs. Coming off a year he threw for 55 TD's and 5,477 yds.
5. He has lost, at home, to Mark Sanchez, Chad Pennington and Jay Fiedler. His SB win was against Rex Grossman.
6. Since his SB win in 2006, he's 4-7 in the postseason with FIVE one and done efforts (4 of those were at home).

What am I missing? Overall his performance dips statistically. The one and dones, especially at home, go against the odds and home field advantage in the postseason. His big game performances have been flat out BAD on the biggest stage. He's lost to lesser QB led teams.

Let's flip the switch. Give me a couple postseason highlights or memorable moments he's famous for? What is his signature postseason calling card? There aren't any.

As you point out postseason play matters, just another way Jeter crushes Biggio.

 

[Robertelamin]

1. First and foremost, as mentioned, he's 11-13 with 9 one and done efforts.
   
2. Of those 9 one and dones, 6 of them were home games.
3. In his 3 Super Bowl Appearances, he's averaged 30 for 44 for 287 yds, 1 TD and 1.33 INT.
4. His 3 Super Bowls are:
   
   31 for 45, 333 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT (W over Chi)
   25 for 38, 247 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT (L to NO)
   34 for 49, 280 yds, 1 TD, 2 INT (L to Sea)
   
   In those two losses, his Pick 6 to Darren Sharper against NO and his awful half against Seattle last year are flat out playoff gag jobs. FYI - The first half against Seattle, Denver's drives were Safety, Punt, Int, Int, Turnover on Downs. Coming off a year he threw for 55 TD's and 5,477 yds.
5. He has lost, at home, to Mark Sanchez, Chad Pennington and Jay Fiedler. His SB win was against Rex Grossman.
6. Since his SB win in 2006, he's 4-7 in the postseason with FIVE one and done efforts (4 of those were at home).

What am I missing? Overall his performance dips statistically. The one and dones, especially at home, go against the odds and home field advantage in the postseason. His big game performances have been flat out BAD on the biggest stage. He's lost to lesser QB led teams.

Let's flip the switch. Give me a couple postseason highlights or memorable moments he's famous for? What is his signature postseason calling card? There aren't any.

I'm not a Manning fan so I don't care but at least I got you to spend time researching and posting that.

 

[David 76]

Yeah, Marino and Peyton really suck.
To me, all you have to look at was how bad the Colts were when Peyton was injured (or first left). He held them together.
Was he like Montana in the playoffs? No. But he won a Super Bowl and put his team in the post season every year. He and Marino are clearly among the best and you could argue that either one of them is the best. Regardless.

 

[upstater]

Yeah, Marino and Peyton really suck.
To me, all you have to look at was how bad the Colts were when Peyton was injured (or first left). He held them together.
Was he like Montana in the playoffs? No. But he won a Super Bowl and put his team in the post season every year. He and Marino are clearly among the best and you could argue that either one of them is the best. Regardless.

They tanked that season to get Luck.

When they secured the #1, they replaced Painter with UConn's own Dan Orlovsky, and he went 2-0 with them. So a rookie Luck comes in, first year, and they win 11 games.

Guess what? 11 games is more than Peyton Manning's Colts won the year before they landed the #1 pick.

 

[UConn990411]

Yeah, Marino and Peyton really suck.
To me, all you have to look at was how bad the Colts were when Peyton was injured (or first left). He held them together.
Was he like Montana in the playoffs? No. But he won a Super Bowl and put his team in the post season every year. He and Marino are clearly among the best and you could argue that either one of them is the best. Regardless.

There's no argument that either Manning or Marino were the best ever. None.

 

[David 76]

Add Favre to the sucks list, Elway almost sucked, Or are you a better QB if you don't make the playoffs regularly? Then your percentages will look better for people who look at stats.
Poor Marino always thought he had to win 1 Super Bowl to convince the haters. Guess he would have needed 2.
I'm not counting Peyton out. He needs to heal and he is still better than most. A top 5 or 10 QB all time.

 

[Tenspro2002]

Every time I hear Tony Dungy talk about anything, I'm amazed that Peyton was able to win as much as he did with that clown as a head coach.

This is a highly under-discussed aspect of the Brady vs. Manning debate.

Put Manning with Belicheck and those Patriot teams and how many SBs do they win? 5? 6?

Saddle Brady with the sad-sack coaches that Peyton has had to deal with (Jim Mora, Tony Dungy -- nice guy, but not a sharp coach, Jim Caldwell), and does he even win 1?

 

[Mots010]

1. 
   
2. He has lost, at home, to Mark Sanchez, Chad Pennington and Jay Fiedler. His SB win was against Rex Grossman.

Let's flip the switch. Give me a couple postseason highlights or memorable moments he's famous for? What is his signature postseason calling card? There aren't any.

That's kind of weak. The QB isn't playing the other QB. To play that game, Tom Brady has lost to Mark Sanchez, Jake Plummer and twice to Joe Flacco (once before Flacco sold his soul to the devil in 2012). Brady missed the playoffs to the Jets and Pennington in 2002. Eli Manning? There's a chance he's played the last playoff game of his career already.

Calling card? You kind of glossed over that 2006 playoff. After he threw that pick 6 to Asante Sameul, he was pretty good in that comeback from from the 21-3 deficit against the clutchiest of the clutch, Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. I guess they didn't 'create enough luck' for themselves.

I dont disagree he isn't a great playoff QB, but lets not go crazy here.

 

[champs99and04]

This is a highly under-discussed aspect of the Brady vs. Manning debate.

Put Manning with Belicheck and those Patriot teams and how many SBs do they win? 5? 6?

Saddle Brady with the sad-sack coaches that Peyton has had to deal with (Jim Mora, Tony Dungy -- nice guy, but not a sharp coach, Jim Caldwell), and does he even win 1?

I don't necessarily agree that Manning would win five or six titles with Belicheck but you're certainly right that this is a frequently neglected facet of the argument.

 

[UConn990411]

This is a highly under-discussed aspect of the Brady vs. Manning debate.

Put Manning with Belicheck and those Patriot teams and how many SBs do they win? 5? 6?

Saddle Brady with the sad-sack coaches that Peyton has had to deal with (Jim Mora, Tony Dungy -- nice guy, but not a sharp coach, Jim Caldwell), and does he even win 1?

Lol.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

They tanked that season to get Luck.

When they secured the #1, they replaced Painter with UConn's own Dan Orlovsky, and he went 2-0 with them. So a rookie Luck comes in, first year, and they win 11 games.

Guess what? 11 games is more than Peyton Manning's Colts won the year before they landed the #1 pick.

Absurd post. It's the nfl. Teams can't tank like you can in the NBA. They "tanked" because peyton got hurt and therefore they sucked. I don't remember them having a fire sale like the Knicks currently are.

The colts won 12 or 13 games every single year for a decade including two potential perfect seasons had it not been for resting guys. Peyton gets hurt and they start 0-14. Coincidence? I think not. And ironically, those two wins you point out were against teams that were resting guys to move up (jags I think and maybe houston) in the last two weeks of the year when "tanking" actually does exist (not for 16 Games).

I would in no way argue that peyton is clutch. But people are crazy for trying to bash him for stinking against an all time great d and yesterday when he's 40 and washed up and playing with a bad leg when he had zero arm strength to begin with and relied almost entirely on his legs. He couldn't even throw a football three years ago and he comes back and wuddya know right away his team wins 13 Games and he's as good as ever. Next year he has the best season ever for a qb in his second year.

He basically never had a good defense. In fact most of them on the colts were downright awful. Let's not forget brady still hasn't won without a top notch d. And the year he went down the pats won 11 games with Matt friggin cassel. Brady is great but belichick is a genius (ask the Ravens) and in my opinion the best coach ever without a doubt. Brady gets too much credit and manning gets way too much heat

Peyton ushered in the new pass heavy open offense uptempo nfl. Barely anyone ever threw 4000 yards before him and now half the guys in the league do including ryan tannehill for God sakes. Manning changed the nfl similar to how jordan changed the NBA where big men no longer exist and everyone wants to play like he did. Finding a qb is basically he sole purpose of every organization and without one you have no chance.

in summary peyton is great. Best ever? Certainty not in the playoffs. But definitely a top 5 qb and anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts

 

[UConn990411]

He basically never had a good defense. In fact most of them on the colts were downright awful. Let's not forget brady still hasn't won without a top notch d. And the year he went down the pats won 11 games with Matt friggin cassel. Brady is great but belichick is a genius (ask the Ravens) and in my opinion the best coach ever without a doubt. Brady gets too much credit and manning gets way too much heat

And out of all the phony Peyton defenses, this one is the phoniest.

He played with plenty of bad defenses, but he also played with several good ones. Here's how the Colts defenses ranked from 1999-2010, and how they fared in the postseason:

1999 - 17th (lost Div)
2000 - 15th (lost WC)
2001 - 31st (missed playoffs)
2002 - 7th (lost WC)
2003 - 20th (lost Conf)
2004 - 19th (lost Div)
2005 - 2nd (lost Div)
2006 - 23rd (won SB)
2007 - 1st (lost Div)
2008 - 7th (lost WC)
2009 - 8th (lost SB)
2010 - 23rd (lost WC)

I'm by no means a Peyton hater - he's without a doubt one of the three or four best QBs to ever play the game, and I'm going to miss watching the guy when he finally hangs 'em up.

I just think it's bizarre how he gets such a big pass from fans and the media alike for how small he's come up in the postseason on a regular basis. No, I don't think he was the only reason - or even the biggest reason - the Colts consistently underachieved, but he was part of the problem.

 

[Mots010]

I just think it's bizarre how he gets such a big pass from fans and the media alike for how small he's come up in the postseason on a regular basis..

He's probably the most criticized qb in the history of the game for his post season performances.

 

[upstater]

Absurd post. It's the nfl. Teams can't tank like you can in the NBA. They "tanked" because peyton got hurt and therefore they sucked. I don't remember them having a fire sale like the Knicks currently are.

The colts won 12 or 13 games every single year for a decade including two potential perfect seasons had it not been for resting guys. Peyton gets hurt and they start 0-14. Coincidence? I think not. And ironically, those two wins you point out were against teams that were resting guys to move up (jags I think and maybe houston) in the last two weeks of the year when "tanking" actually does exist (not for 16 Games).

I would in no way argue that peyton is clutch. But people are crazy for trying to bash him for stinking against an all time great d and yesterday when he's 40 and washed up and playing with a bad leg when he had zero arm strength to begin with and relied almost entirely on his legs. He couldn't even throw a football three years ago and he comes back and wuddya know right away his team wins 13 Games and he's as good as ever. Next year he has the best season ever for a qb in his second year.

He basically never had a good defense. In fact most of them on the colts were downright awful. Let's not forget brady still hasn't won without a top notch d. And the year he went down the pats won 11 games with Matt friggin cassel. Brady is great but belichick is a genius (ask the Ravens) and in my opinion the best coach ever without a doubt. Brady gets too much credit and manning gets way too much heat

Peyton ushered in the new pass heavy open offense uptempo nfl. Barely anyone ever threw 4000 yards before him and now half the guys in the league do including ryan tannehill for God sakes. Manning changed the nfl similar to how jordan changed the NBA where big men no longer exist and everyone wants to play like he did. Finding a qb is basically he sole purpose of every organization and without one you have no chance.

in summary peyton is great. Best ever? Certainty not in the playoffs. But definitely a top 5 qb and anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts

In the NFL, you can TANK easier than the NBA. There is no lottery.

Curtis Painter never did anything before and after. He was awful.

They tanked for Andrew Luck. We all know this. You guys who keep talking about the huge drop in wins never answer this when I ask: a rookie QB came into your 0-14 team and he lead them to MORE wins than Peyton had the year before the 0-14.

That means nothing to you?

As for uptempo, that all changed in 2004, and it wasn't because of Peyton. It was because of the point of emphasis rules change. After that rules change, the very next year, Peyton's TDs went from 26 to 49. And many QBs after that experienced success.