OT: Pats

[upstater]

Excellent so funny too. Hey you guys have seen him rub it in to the Bills, Jets up 21 and still throwing in the 4th Q but I guess I'm whacked huh? Hilarious!

Well, they were actually up on the Dolphins by 24--and ended up having to make a goal line stand to preserve the victory.

Unless there are 5 minutes left, and you're ahead by 3 scores, I want my team pressing. I've seen those comebacks happen once every 5 years. Brady by the way, in 2007 (since you're referencing the year they ran on the Bills on 4th down rather than kick a field goal [always a good discussion whether running on 4th rather than taking a 3 is"classier"]), was pulled from games much quicker than Peyton Manning was the prior year when the Colts lead the league in points scored and Manning had 49 TD passes. No hue and cry then.

 

[upstater]

I'm not buying a single bit of any of this. Seeing how often each changes the play? Moving around the pocket? This is hogwash. All things equal, opponent, neutral site, talent level on offense, etc? I don't know anything that either does better than the other one. Rodgers maybe has a stronger arm and throws a better deep ball, but when Brady had Moss, that certainly wasn't the case then.

Hard to say if you're replying to me or the other person you quoted, but I'd say Rodgers throws a much better ball on the run.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I'm not buying a single bit of any of this. Seeing how often each changes the play? Moving around the pocket? This is hogwash. All things equal, opponent, neutral site, talent level on offense, etc? I don't know anything that either does better than the other one. Rodgers maybe has a stronger arm and throws a better deep ball, but when Brady had Moss, that certainly wasn't the case then.

Rodgers certainly runs better than Brady. By a lot.

Brady's worst season, in my opinion, was 2008 when he was fixated on throwing deep post routes to an often covered Moss, and ignored wide open receivers all over the field. I screamed at him all year long. His greatest strength is seeing the field, recognizing the uncovered receiver and delivering it to him. You will see several guys be the leading receiver during the season when he's playing well. Last week was Hogan. Next week, who knows?

They are both great, but aren't mirror images of each other.

 

[Huskybass]

You know nothing about me, so don't cast me in your sweeping generalizations. I suffered w arrogant Giant fans in the mid 80s while my team went 1-15 every other year. I suffered when all NY fans ran wild w cheating allegations that amounted to nothing in terms of a real football advantage. I suffered when the Giants ruined our perfect season on the luckiest play in the history of sports, and then did it again 4 years later. I suffered w the deflatgate BS in a game the Pats won by 28 points AFTER the "alleged" cheating was discovered. So you bet your ass I'm gonna give NY fans a hard time any time I get a chance. If you are too thin-skinned to deal with it, maybe you should go root for the Browns.

And by the way, I'm sure you would be the FIRST to come on here and crow if it was the Giants, so get off your high horse.

Boom.

 

[mauconnfan]

Another comparison on those 2 since it's still here, Brady and he both whine too much about getting hit "late" in their minds. Having said that Brady hates losing but isn't a bad loser - Rogers is our a**hole. The other day was embarrassing to him the way he finished, quite the spoiled brat routine. Brady never acts that way and he almost can, he hardly ever loses.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Another comparison on those 2 since it's still here, Brady and he both whine too much about getting hit "late" in their minds. Having said that Brady hates losing but isn't a bad loser - Rogers is our a**hole. The other day was embarrassing to him the way he finished, quite the spoiled brat routine. Brady never acts that way and he almost can, he hardly ever loses.

There were two clear late hits not called in the Pittsburgh game, but I didn't complain (Brady did) because the refs essentially didn't call anything all day on either side. But Cam Newton is the biggest whiner in that regard, by far.

 

[champs99and04]

Didn't New England beat that same Seattle team in 2014? The 2014 Patriots team was actually not even as good as this one and they beat them.

As for flea flickers and plays like that, I always find those exciting no matter if it's my team or not.

I'm curious as to why you think the 2014 Patriots team wasn't as good as this one. It's close, but to me, they were at least in the vicinity of being a great, complete team. They "earned" that championship by beating a couple of really good teams on their way there. I don't feel the same about this group, which played one of the easiest schedules I can remember, but then again that isn't their fault and doesn't make it any less remarkable that Brady and Belichick are still doing this.

Regarding New England's victory over that Seattle team, though, you're making my point. That was a pantheon level game played at an absurdly high level between two ridiculously good teams. I haven't seen a game like that since.

As for the flea flicker, it was exciting and it was a product of exhaustive film study & preparation, but it gets lost when the game is as lopsided as it was. I want to see greatness stretched to its very limits - that Baltimore game in 2014 where the Patriots seemed to empty every trick in their bag was awesome.

 

[Mots010]

Didn't New England beat that same Seattle team in 2014? The 2014 Patriots team was actually not even as good as this one and they beat them.

As for flea flickers and plays like that, I always find those exciting no matter if it's my team or not.

2013 Seattle was a historically great defense. 2014 Seattle was good, but not nearly as dominant defensively. Plus, the legion of boom limped into that superbowl, not to mention losing Jeremy Lane and Cliff Avril mid game had an impact.

 

[upstater]

I'm curious as to why you think the 2014 Patriots team wasn't as good as this one. It's close, but to me, they were at least in the vicinity of being a great, complete team. They "earned" that championship by beating a couple of really good teams on their way there. I don't feel the same about this group, which played one of the easiest schedules I can remember, but then again that isn't their fault and doesn't make it any less remarkable that Brady and Belichick are still doing this.

Regarding New England's victory over that Seattle team, though, you're making my point. That was a pantheon level game played at an absurdly high level between two ridiculously good teams. I haven't seen a game like that since.

As for the flea flicker, it was exciting and it was a product of exhaustive film study & preparation, but it gets lost when the game is as lopsided as it was. I want to see greatness stretched to its very limits - that Baltimore game in 2014 where the Patriots seemed to empty every trick in their bag was awesome.

This Patriots team has many, many more weapons on offense. And more good pass rushers.

Trey Flowers, Jabal Sheard, Chris Long > Chandler Jones

But, even without Gronk, the addition of Hogan, Mitchell, Bennett, Lewis and James White has made them much more dynamic offensivly.

Frankly, the Patriots pulled it out in 2014 by going to Gronk once early for a big TD, and then they milked Edelman for as much as humanly possible.

The only thing that the 2014 offense had that we haven't seen yet in the playoffs is Shane Vereen catching pass after pass, but if pressed to do it, I have full confidence that Dion Lewis and James White would be just as good as Vereen.

Essentially, my argument is that the sum of these parts: Trey Flowers, Jabal Sheard, Chris Long, Chris Hogan, Dion Lewis, James White, Malcolm Mitchell, Martellus Bennett > Chandler Jones and Gronk.

 

[upstater]

2013 Seattle was a historically great defense. 2014 Seattle was good, but not nearly as dominant defensively. Plus, the legion of boom limped into that superbowl, not to mention losing Jeremy Lane and Cliff Avril mid game had an impact.

Eh, everyone limps into a Super Bowl. Look at the teams this year. Surprised there's been very little made of Martellus Bennett's broken foot.

But why was Seattle's D so different? It was all the same players.

 

[donyell34]

Pats are great , Brad's the best and Bill is even better. We good? And I am serious not making fun of the Pats they're great but this thread for 2 weeks seriously?

Move this the OP should've started in one of the other forums anyway.

Double standard don't you think being there is a long giant thread somewhere here and has been here all season so now you don't want to hear it. Patriot fans are happy and excited for a chance at another super bowl . What's the problem?

 

[Adios]

That kid who took Lane's place got torched. Can't remember his name. Made the game easier to win, sure. It is what it is. Seattle also got very lucky with that catch by #15 towards the end.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

But Cam Newton is the biggest whiner in that regard, by far.

This can't be serious. I think Cam's a clown, but this kid takes 4 or 5 hits a game that would result in a lifetime ban if they came against Brady or Rogers, usually with no flag.

 

[upstater]

This can't be serious. I think Cam's a clown, but this kid takes 4 or 5 hits a game that would result in a lifetime ban if they came against Brady or Rogers, usually with no flag.

He does take bad hits. He is unprotected though out of the pocket. I think they are definitely missing calls on him.
That being said, I just saw this discussion last week about how protected Brady is. Someone posted a study on another board showing that over the last 8 years, the least protected QB in the league was Roethlisberger. More hits to personal fouls than any other QB. Manning and Brady were just a couple slots above him. Brady, for instance, had one personal foul called on a defender the entire season this year.

There are 3 reasons the Brady protection story is overblown:

1. He complains to the refs
2. Overexposure: the Patriots are on a lot
3. The so-called Brady rule (which wasn't even made after he got injured in 2008, it was made in 2006 when a Steeler dove at Carson Palmer's knees and took the Bengals out of the playoffs).

 

[intlzncster]

I actually agree with Brady is the best ever. Rodgers or Favre before him are way more fun to watch.

I have alot of thought on your post, and will add them if I have time (thanks Chief), but I'd say the sentiment above isn't unusual. I'd much rather watch Kobe Bryant play, than Tim Duncan. Even though I consider TD the better player. Even with greater talent disparities: Jason (white chocolate) Williams was more fun to watch than John Stockton, but Stockton was the far, far superior player.

 

[intlzncster]

There were two clear late hits not called in the Pittsburgh game, but I didn't complain (Brady did) because the refs essentially didn't call anything all day on either side. But Cam Newton is the biggest whiner in that regard, by far.

This can't be serious. I think Cam's a clown, but this kid takes 4 or 5 hits a game that would result in a lifetime ban if they came against Brady or Rogers, usually with no flag.

Cam whines about all manner of things, but not often about getting hit. In fact, I think he's taken the high road far too often. He did complain some this year, but rightfully so.

Note that you are going to take a lot more shots when you are running QB, especially one Cam's size. Like it or not, big guys get less calls in most sports. Shaq got absolutely abused, but since he was so big, he didn't get all the same calls as everyone else.

 

[Deepster]

Cam whines about all manner of things, but not often about getting hit. In fact, I think he's taken the high road far too often. He did complain some this year, but rightfully so.

Note that you are going to take a lot more shots when you are running QB, especially one Cam's size. Like it or not, big guys get less calls in most sports. Shaq got absolutely abused, but since he was so big, he didn't get all the same calls as everyone else.

I think it's also about the QB's effort to slide. This week, Rodgers didn't slide, got hit, drew a flag....then it was overturned because he didn't properly slide feetfirst. Newton is a runner, he's a big guy and I think at times, he doesn't go into a) as much of an obvious slide and b) waits too late. You watch Brady or Manning? Anyone gets within 3 yds and they're sliding immediately.

 

[Scoe]

Tbf what are other teams supposed to do? Belichick is so far ahead of everyone else in the sport where coaching clearly matters the most.

Of course you need to come up with a great game plan, but dont over think it. Teams make that mistake against the Pats (Belichick and Brady specifically). You need to punch the Pats in the mouth and do it early and often, dont play mind games with Belichick it takes you out of your element. Play football against the pats not math. The Steelers made the mistake of playing zone against Brady insead of man to man, gotta be physical with Brady and the Pats receivers. The Pats and Falcons have both jumped out to early leads this year in their games, thats going to be critical for both teams to be given a psychological edge.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Cam whines about all manner of things, but not often about getting hit. In fact, I think he's taken the high road far too often. He did complain some this year, but rightfully so.

Note that you are going to take a lot more shots when you are running QB, especially one Cam's size. Like it or not, big guys get less calls in most sports. Shaq got absolutely abused, but since he was so big, he didn't get all the same calls as everyone else.

Cam doesn't whine in games, but then he goes to the press and complains about it. As others have pointed out, he doesn't slide when he runs, and also doesn't go down when he's clearly about to be sacked. Once a QB is a runner, they are like any other runner unless they slide.

 

[Matt (Chicago)]

Belichick's system? He is an offensive coach.

defensive*

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Once a QB is a runner, they are like any other runner unless they slide.

Typically any other runner would draw a flag for a helmet to helmet, not have the league apologize after missing four in one game.

 

[champs99and04]

2013 Seattle was a historically great defense. 2014 Seattle was good, but not nearly as dominant defensively. Plus, the legion of boom limped into that superbowl, not to mention losing Jeremy Lane and Cliff Avril mid game had an impact.

They were also deeper defensively. They lost Red Bryant, Chris Clemons and Walter Thurmond among others that off-season. They also lost Golden Tate.

New England and Denver were both ravaged with injuries in 2013, which made the NFC Championship game the de facto super bowl...so I'm not trying to act like it doesn't work both ways.

The NFC was loaded that year. Carolina, New Orleans, San Francisco, Seattle, and Green Bay were all better than any team this year, IMO. The league this year is as bad as I can ever remember it being, but that's just the way the ball bounces sometimes - seemingly every top team under-achieved for one reason or another, which is another thing I dislike about the NFL...the teams playing the best football in December are often the ones going home. Watching teams like Miami, Detroit, Oakland and Houston wild card weekend was gross when you wondered if a team like Arizona could have done some real damage (speaking of Arizona, I thought that was the Patriots' best win this year).

I do have to account for the possibility that New England and Atlanta are simply better than I thought. The Eric Rowe trade is an example of a trade that looked bad at the time and so much worse now. Only the Eagles, SMH.

 

[TheRealKBuks]

Pretty sure you could plug Jim J. Bullock into Belichick's system and he would be successful.

Bill went through 6 QB's before TB and never came close to the level of success.

 

[mauconnfan]

Double standard don't you think being there is a long giant thread somewhere here and has been here all season so now you don't want to hear it. Patriot fans are happy and excited for a chance at another super bowl . What's the problem?

Did it start out "it's awful quiet here"? Thats' the problem, I get you're happy congrats. People are telling you how great Brady and Bill are, do we need to hear about how bad you think Eli is or be asked why it's quiet? I didn;t start this but since someone did I can throw my opinion in donyell yo don't like it don't read the damn thing. So what's your problem with that?

 

[NielsisGood]

Well now you're not correct. Bill doesn't run clock out, Bill hammers people when they're down. Don't go there that's inaccurate.

That's what he did back in the late 2000s. The Pats of the last few years will absolutely run the clock out. They just did it on Sunday too.