OT: Pats Signed Tebow

[Scoe]

Alex Smith had all that and he wasn't dangerous.

Kaepernick is a dangerous qb with weapons, RG3 is a dangerous qb without weapons aside from maybe Morris. Kapernick is also better coached then RG3 dont assume I'm dissing Kaepernick because I'm not. Alex Smith is a system qb who is limited, basically like a Matt Cassell.

 

[uconnbill]

Where is this hatred you are talking about? Everyone is talking about his football ability. But that doesn't fit your war on Christianity shtick, does it?

His football ability is pretty damn good unless we ask you "What is he going to be, their 4th TE." We know you don't like him but the man brought Denver to the playoffs and a victory there playing quarterback not Tight End.
No it has to do with him being a winner, something many players are not in the NFL. You would realize that if you didn't bring up religion. As I didn't, but you did.

 

[uconnbill]

lol. Yes, it was their inability to utilize a third string quarterback, and not the fact that they had Arena league-caliber skill players and one of the worst starting quarterbacks in the league, that ruined their season.

That wasn't even the funniest part of your post, either - Belichick "killling the NFL with Tebow" takes the cake there. He'll be a third string quarterback, who may occasionally play special teams and work in a limited capacity on offense...and that's if he makes the cut. Some of you act like Belichick is Christ himself, and that a quarterback with laughable throwing mechanics is suddenly going to terrify defensive coordinators because he's a Patriot. He may well be worth the money as an emergency quarterback, a utility player, and a practice body, but let's not get carried away here.

Blame Tebow for the Jet's sucking. Really, I mean really. He will be used as he should in New England a change up and a multiple position player. He won't them and his attitude will only help them.

 

[CAHUSKY]

Kaepernick is a dangerous qb with weapons, RG3 is a dangerous qb without weapons aside from maybe Morris. Kapernick is also better coached then RG3 dont assume I'm dissing Kaepernick because I'm not. Alex Smith is a system qb who is limited, basically like a Matt Cassell.

Not sure what RG3 has do do with the discussion but.....ok.

 

[intlzncster]

Wilson, Kapernick, and Griffin are pocket passers too, they just have the ability to run, giving defenses another dynamic to account for. It keeps defenses off balance when you have the luxury of taking off for a first down with your feet when all your other options are covered.

By definition not a pocket passer. A pocket passer stays in the pocket at all costs.

There's something to be said for protecting your body, but it isn't as if Brady or Manning would be lesser players if they could run a little bit. Andrew Luck is another guy who is a pure pocket passer but also possesses some speed, as are Roethlisberger and Rodgers. I don't think you understand how advantageous it is to be able to improvize when the play breaks down, as Wilson, Griffin, and Kapernick, and to some extent, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, and Luck, are able to do.

Actually, I think they might be. I wouldn't at all be surprised if they did not develop their beyond excellent pocket awareness if they had the ability to run. I'm confident Manning would not have. He used to have happy feet early in his career, and was torched for it in by (non-) analysts. If he had the ability to run, he might never have figured out how to stick in there for 2....3...4...5 seconds.

 

[intlzncster]

A blithering idiot in your mind is anybody who doesn't regard your opinion as fact. I think you'd be better served continuing to make snarky jokes on conference realingment, because let's face it, all you do is embarass yourself when you try to talk sports.

Huh? The original joke went whistling right over your head.

 

[Fishy]

Huh? The original joke went whistling right over your head.

Well, he's the dumbest guy in the room and the dumbest guy in the room rarely realizes that he's the dumbest guy in the room - it goes with the job description.

 

[Deepster]

He compiled a passer rating of 98.3 on the strength of a 62.4 completion percentage and a 10:3 touchdown-to-interception ratio.

I'm not missing anything. You continue to pimp the 10:3 TD to INT ratio, but that's so inflated by the 1 game against NE where he had 4 TD's and 1 INT. They clearly weren't ready for him (and everyone will be from this point forward) and that ratio for the other 9 games is 6:2. That's 6 TD passes over 36 quarters.

I'm not a chump. I realize you have a for him from a college connection...but he's just not a pocket passer.

 

[CAHUSKY]

I'm not missing anything. You continue to pimp the 10:3 TD to INT ratio, but that's so inflated by the 1 game against NE where he had 4 TD's and 1 INT. They clearly weren't ready for him (and everyone will be from this point forward) and that ratio for the other 9 games is 6:2. That's 6 TD passes over 36 quarters.

I'm not a chump. I realize you have a for him from a college connection...but he's just not a pocket passer.

Didn't insinuate you were a chump. Simply that you are underestimating Kap's ability as a passer. Attached the NFL.com analysis to support my position but I guess you didn't like his opinion either. You have to be impressed by his completion percentage and yards per completion. Hard to have those numbers and not be a superior passer. In any event, I have a for him not only because of a college and family connection but because he is the 49ers QB which gives me an even larger . Next year im going to have show up at the Cancer walk so we can settle this with an arm wrestling competition.

 

[Deepster]

Didn't insinuate you were a chump. Simply that you are underestimating Kap's ability as a passer. Attached the NFL.com analysis to support my position but I guess you didn't like his opinion either. You have to be impressed by his completion percentage and yards per completion. Hard to have those numbers and not be a superior passer. In any event, I have a for him not only because of a college and family connection but because he is the 49ers QB which gives me an even larger . Next year im going to have show up at the Cancer walk so we can settle this with an arm wrestling competition.

I am a huge NFL fan and have written a number of articles on fantasy football websites in the past. I know he "can" pass, but he's never going to be a guy that wins 3-4 games in January with his arm (for the most part). It will always come down to what he does with his legs in the long term. This thread has morphed into a discussion that says the guys who use ANY of their legs (Tebow, RGIII, McNabb, Culpepper, Cunningham, etc, etc.) stand a lesser chance than the really true pocket passers. And I agree.

 

[zyron]

His football ability is pretty damn good unless we ask you "What is he going to be, their 4th TE." We know you don't like him but the man brought Denver to the playoffs and a victory there playing quarterback not Tight End.
No it has to do with him being a winner, something many players are not in the NFL. You would realize that if you didn't bring up religion. As I didn't, but you did.

Oh please, your whole thing with your "Wow, the hatred for Tebow" comment is what all the Christians are saying. Especially ones who think there is a war on religion (Like you post on the Cesspool). Don't try to act like your comment wasn't the same.

The Pats only had 2 QBs on their roster last year, do you think Tebow is going to be the #2, because he isn't. So the other position most talked about for him has been TE or HB. He would be the 4th TE right now behind Ballard who they claimed off waivers from the Giants last year and stashed.

Yeah, but he is a winner, to you, because he loves Jesus.

 

[champs99and04]

By definition not a pocket passer. A pocket passer stays in the pocket at all costs.



Actually, I think they might be. I wouldn't at all be surprised if they did not develop their beyond excellent pocket awareness if they had the ability to run. I'm confident Manning would not have. He used to have happy feet early in his career, and was torched for it in by (non-) analysts. If he had the ability to run, he might never have figured out how to stick in there for 2....3...4...5 seconds.

Was Steve Young a pocket passer? How about John Elway? Those guys could carve defenses from the pocket with the best of them, but they also had the speed to make things happen with their feet. You can argue whether Kapernick, Wilson, and Griffin are pocket passers - regardless, I don't see anything wrong with being multi-dimensional in a day and age where defensive schemes are more complex and innovative than ever.

"Actually, I think they might be. I wouldn't at all be surprised if they did not develop their beyond excellent pocket awareness if they had the ability to run. I'm confident Manning would not have."

This is a fair point - in certain cases speed can work to a quarterbacks detriment because they're looking to escape at the first sign of danger. Mike Vick comes to mind here. There is a sensitive line to be balanced between evacuating the pocket only as a last resort and looking to run with regularity. Wilson, Kapernick, and Griffin are poised enough in the pocket that I'm confident they are developed enough as pocket passers to survive later in their careers with diminished speed. Griffin, for instance, was able to lead the Redskins to the playoffs on a faulty knee late in the season. Each of them made countless plays in the pocket, and under duress, throughout the season. Of course there will always be room in the NFL for pure pocket passers, but based on the passer ratings and completion percentages of the aforementioned players, coupled with their intelligence and work ethic, I think you'd be mistaken to dismiss them as flavor of the month.

 

[intlzncster]

Was Steve Young a pocket passer? How about John Elway? Those guys could carve defenses from the pocket with the best of them, but they also had the speed to make things happen with their feet. You can argue whether Kapernick, Wilson, and Griffin are pocket passers - regardless, I don't see anything wrong with being multi-dimensional in a day and age where defensive schemes are more complex and innovative than ever.

They didn't call Steve Young the Scrambler for nothing. Note that his career was cut short by concussion related injuries. I'd consider Elway is more an exception than a rule. He's also one of the best of all time. None of the kids have done squat yet.

Wilson, Kapernick, and Griffin are poised enough in the pocket that I'm confident they are developed enough as pocket passers to survive later in their careers with diminished speed. Griffin, for instance, was able to lead the Redskins to the playoffs on a faulty knee late in the season. Each of them made countless plays in the pocket, and under duress, throughout the season. Of course there will always be room in the NFL for pure pocket passers, but based on the passer ratings and completion percentages of the aforementioned players, coupled with their intelligence and work ethic, I think you'd be mistaken to dismiss them as flavor of the month.

Wilson, Kapernick, and Griffin are so young in their careers, it's difficult to make any claims as to how they'll turn out. They look good, but so did players like McNabb, Vick and Vince Young.

 

[CAHUSKY]

They didn't call Steve Young the Scrambler for nothing. Note that his career was cut short by concussion related injuries.

But let's also note that his career was defined not by injury but by two MVP awards, a Super Bowl title and induction in to the pro football hall if fame. Lets also not forget he has become Kaepernicks mentor. Please refer to my earlier post that showed "mobile" QB's missing no more starts during their careers than pocket passers before pointing out youngs issues with concussions. Clearly concussions are a far greater concern at other positions than quarterback.

PS. I've never heard the nickname Steve "the scrambler" Young
Pss. Young to Rice is the second most prolific QB/Reciever combo in NFL history, please don't tell me Young wasnt a great pocket passer because he ran too well

 

[RS9999X]

Josh McDaniels did well with Tebow in Denver and thinks he's teachable. Good enough for me. Get him some minutes in blow outs or due to injury and trade him for a Second or Third rounder. Hernandez did well with him in college. Lets see what they do....

 

[Deepster]

Josh McDaniels did well with Tebow in Denver and thinks he's teachable. Good enough for me. Get him some minutes in blow outs or due to injury and trade him for a Second or Third rounder. Hernandez did well with him in college. Lets see what they do....

Trade him for a 2nd or 3rd rounder from his mop up 4th quarter blowout performances? Good one. The Chiefs gave up a 2nd rounder for Alex Smith and he was 19-5-1 as a starter once Harbaugh took over.

 

[meyers7]

I am a huge NFL fan and have written a number of articles on fantasy football websites in the past.

LOL. This is supposed to help your argument?????

(Not agreeing or disagreeing with your arguments, don't care. But that's freaking hilarious. )

 

[Deepster]

LOL. This is supposed to help your argument?????

(Not agreeing or disagreeing with your arguments, don't care. But that's freaking hilarious. )

I think the fact that I was hired by someone to give my analysis carries a little credibility. It doesn't make me Peter King or Matthew Berry.

 

[Waquoit]

I'm not missing anything. You continue to pimp the 10:3 TD to INT ratio, but that's so inflated by the 1 game against NE where he had 4 TD's and 1 INT. They clearly weren't ready for him (and everyone will be from this point forward) and that ratio for the other 9 games is 6:2. That's 6 TD passes over 36 quarters..

If only Dan O could be judged by what he did in one game v. the Pats: 30-37, 353 yds.

 

[Matt (Chicago)]

Smith was behind a good oline in NE, he wasn't much of anything after he left NE either. Dillon was never a has been in Cincinnati.

Look at his stats the last year there. Coupled with his attitude, no one wanted him.

 

[intlzncster]

But let's also note that his career was defined not by injury but by two MVP awards, a Super Bowl title and induction in to the pro football hall if fame. Lets also not forget he has become Kaepernicks mentor. Please refer to my earlier post that showed "mobile" QB's missing no more starts during their careers than pocket passers before pointing out youngs issues with concussions. Clearly concussions are a far greater concern at other positions than quarterback.
PS. I've never heard the nickname Steve "the scrambler" Young
Pss. Young to Rice is the second most prolific QB/Reciever combo in NFL history, please don't tell me Young wasnt a great pocket passer because he ran too well

Didn't say he wasn't a great pocket passer, but he sure as wasn't known as a pure pocket passer. Steve Young is also a pretty rare bread. And yeah, probably should just right off his concussions as an anomaly. Didn't have anything to do with him running the football too aggressively. So what if they are far greater concern than other positions; they are still an important concern for quarterbacks (Aaron Rogers). And Young mentoring Kap proves what? Kareem was mentoring Brittney Griner this year...maybe she'll play in the NBA! Also, come on, just about anyone to Jerry Rice would be a prolific combo. Rice is the best to ever play the game at that position.

The statistics and conclusions from that article are difficult to interpret (and simplistic), as most stats like that are--I'm pissing in my own cheerios as a former statistician here. Also, that wasn't the best conducted 'study' -> they omitted too seasons because they couldn't easily collect/interpret data--QB carousel seasons are likely to be wrapped up with injury concerns. And their criteria wasn't exactly the greatest (granted, they didn't have the data available).

They also don't (can't) take into account differences in protection/scheme/opponents/QB-injury-mentality (willingness to take hits), etc. It's difficult to marry cause and effect. They didn't look at the degradation of movement/legs as the QB ages, injury by age, as it relates to career longevity, etc. Those would be the more important things to look at. They didn't even look at career length, the most simple metric available. They didn't drill down deeply/closely enough at sacks (an important statistic). It matters HOW a QB takes a sack. Is he like Brady and Manning and just go down to avoid the hit, or is he like Big Ben or David Carr and stand tall no matter what, getting their clock cleaned? How often do they throw away?

I think one of the most interesting ways of looking at that data would have been by age/season/number of years/rush attempts/yards/injuries/%rushed by season played, so we could get an idea of progression based on aging and wear and tear. That would have meant something. It felt like the authors were gathering stats to prove their point, not the other way around.

The point isn't that pocket passers avoid injury (they don't), but that mobile quarterbacks build up wear and tear that affects them to a greater degree later in their career. If they don't become pocket passers, they suffer. Will they develop the necessary pocket awareness that they'll need later in their career? Their legs certainly won't give them the same advantages they did in their youth. Elway is an example of a QB who successfully made the transition; he's also one of the best ever.

Also, as has been noted before, hybrid QBs haven't won many Superbowls historically. Favre, Young, and Big Ben are it really (as indicated previously, Elway was too late in his career to be considered a running QB when he won--he'd changed into a pocket passer).

Apologies for the novel.

 

[Scoe]

CA - try not to engage him in too serious of a discussion... you'll only end up banging your head against a wall.

Just mentioning that Kaep is on a very good team surrounded by great coaching and taking full advantage of it, theres nothing wrong about that. Which is why I think he will last in the NFL, vs somebody like an RG3, I just brought up his name as an example.

 

[intlzncster]

If only Dan O could be judged by what he did in one game v. the Pats: 30-37, 353 yds.

He's not judging him based on that game, he's noting that it might have skewed the results (especially given the 'surprise' factor). I remember when the Wildcat was unveiled against and smoked the Pats. It died off next season. Not saying mobile QBs are in any danger of dying off, mind you. Just using that to illustrate the element of surprise and lack of preparation.

 

[Scoe]

Look at his stats the last year there. Coupled with his attitude, no one wanted him.

You would have a poor attitude too if you were a battering ram for a Cincinnati team that never had a winning season in your tenure. Dillon was more motivated joining the Patriots.

 

[intlzncster]

Just mentioning that Kaep is on a very good team surrounded by great coaching and taking full advantage of it, theres nothing wrong about that. Which is why I think he will last in the NFL, vs somebody like an RG3, I just brought up his name as an example.

In the modern era, that team won't stick around forever. It will all depend on how Harbaugh rebuilds. Is he like Bill Belichick and Ozzie Newsome, or is he like Andy Reid?