OT - NBA off-season thread

[BUConn10]

Nah he just took the best rookie in the class so far: Kia Rookie Ladder: John Collins, Dennis Smith Jr. make strong showings

Tatum only played 3 games in Vegas including his team beating Ball's with JT going for 27 and 11.

But I am glad you are won over by twitter clips. Tatum was hands down the best rookie over the course of the summer leagues.

Tatum will be a game changer.

 

[polycom]

Tatum will be a game changer.

Ball > Tatum.

 

[BUConn10]

Ball > Tatum.

Not even close you bandwagoner.

 

[polycom]

Not even close you bandwagoner.

Neither of them have even played in the NBA what bandwagon is there to join? Get off me.

 

[Jerry1714]

Tatum will be a game changer.

Agreed, updated ladder has Ball 1 and Tatum 2 but a lot of that is because of being shut down by the Cs in Vegas. Kia Rookie Ladder: Ball, Kuzma represent Lakers at top of the list

"Tatum was the best rookie through the Orlando and Salt Lake City portions of summer, averaging 18.7 points and 9.7 rebounds while shooting 46.8 percent in three Utah games, and followed that with 17.7 points, eight rebounds and 42.2 percent before the Celtics shut him down after three games in Las Vegas."

 

[superjohn]

Nah he just took the best rookie in the class so far: Kia Rookie Ladder: John Collins, Dennis Smith Jr. make strong showings

Tatum only played 3 games in Vegas including his team beating Ball's with JT going for 27 and 11.

But I am glad you are won over by twitter clips. Tatum was hands down the best rookie over the course of the summer leagues.

Twitter clips? I've consistently said Ball is the best player in college and the best player in the draft. I've also said summer league is meaningless. You seem to be the one hyping up summer league as some great predictor. Ainge is a dope because he had the #1 pick and instead of taking the best player he traded the pick away. Philly is also dumb to pass on Ball. I only mentioned Ainge because the Celtics are closer to having a championship level team, it's the local team and I'm more interested in them than Philly.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Not for nothing, but the Warriors D shouldn't be used as an example for hiding a weak defender. Their D is otherwordly, and with Klay, Durant, and Green, all time even. Those guys are among the best defenders in the whole league. Heck even the role players D up (Iggy).

They are the gold standard. Not easily replicated.

Agreed. They have an amazing defense behind Steph. The Rockets was 3rd in the west in team defense with James Harden too though and he can be seen in that same safety light. The roster that the Lakers are assembling right now looks solid defensively too to be able to be able to hide Lonzo for now.

 

[Scoe]

Looks like Ginobli is back for another year.

 

[Jerry1714]

Twitter clips? I've consistently said Ball is the best player in college and the best player in the draft. I've also said summer league is meaningless. You seem to be the one hyping up summer league as some great predictor. Ainge is a dope because he had the #1 pick and instead of taking the best player he traded the pick away. Philly is also dumb to pass on Ball. I only mentioned Ainge because the Celtics are closer to having a championship level team, it's the local team and I'm more interested in them than Philly.

He traded it away because he thought Tatum was the best player in the draft and it looks like he might be. Oh, and he got another potential top 5 pick for basically nothing. So you think Angie is an idiot because he did not take the guy YOU think is the best player in the draft even though most NBA GMs and scouts do not agree with you.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

He traded it away because he thought Tatum was the best player in the draft and it looks like he might be. Oh, and he got another potential top 5 pick for basically nothing. So you think Angie is an idiot because he did not take the guy YOU think is the best player in the draft even though most NBA GMs and scouts do not agree with you.

Don't think Tatum is the best player in the draft but he was definitely the best FIT for BOS.

 

[champs99and04]

WTF, you don't think he's a point guard?

I don't put much stock into position labels to begin with. A lot of times these days it's just used as a proxy to describe the player who has the ball in his hands the most and uses the most high ball screens. Mike Conley and Kyrie Irving are "point guards" who spend a lot of time spotting up. Livingston in Golden State has been a guy who kind of lurks around the baseline and wings, waiting for opportune times to cut. Ball has more upside than that because he has gifts as a passer that few others do and potential as a shooter that Livingston never showed.

Beyond that, we'll see. I'm skeptical about guys who draw the "make others around him better" moniker. That's not to say there isn't some truth to it, just that I think it undersells how good and how smart the guys in the NBA already are. It's hard enough to process NBA defenses when you're Russell Westbrook and you can jump from building and you've already been in the league for a decade. I don't buy the idea that Ball's court vision and basketball sense is so supernatural that he's going to be Good Will Hunting out there solving defenses.

 

[BUConn10]

I don't put much stock into position labels to begin with. A lot of times these days it's just used as a proxy to describe the player who has the ball in his hands the most and uses the most high ball screens. Mike Conley and Kyrie Irving are "point guards" who spend a lot of time spotting up. Livingston in Golden State has been a guy who kind of lurks around the baseline and wings, waiting for opportune times to cut. Ball has more upside than that because he has gifts as a passer that few others do and potential as a shooter that Livingston never showed.

Beyond that, we'll see. I'm skeptical about guys who draw the "make others around him better" moniker. That's not to say there isn't some truth to it, just that I think it undersells how good and how smart the guys in the NBA already are. It's hard enough to process NBA defenses when you're Russell Westbrook and you can jump from building and you've already been in the league for a decade. I don't buy the idea that Ball's court vision and basketball sense is so supernatural that he's going to be Good Will Hunting out there solving defenses.

This is all nice and really intelligent sounding... but he is still a point guard whether you believe in positionless basketball or not.

 

[superjohn]

I don't put much stock into position labels to begin with. A lot of times these days it's just used as a proxy to describe the player who has the ball in his hands the most and uses the most high ball screens. Mike Conley and Kyrie Irving are "point guards" who spend a lot of time spotting up. Livingston in Golden State has been a guy who kind of lurks around the baseline and wings, waiting for opportune times to cut. Ball has more upside than that because he has gifts as a passer that few others do and potential as a shooter that Livingston never showed.

Beyond that, we'll see. I'm skeptical about guys who draw the "make others around him better" moniker. That's not to say there isn't some truth to it, just that I think it undersells how good and how smart the guys in the NBA already are. It's hard enough to process NBA defenses when you're Russell Westbrook and you can jump from building and you've already been in the league for a decade. I don't buy the idea that Ball's court vision and basketball sense is so supernatural that he's going to be Good Will Hunting out there solving defenses.

Mike Conley and Kyrie Irving are called point guards because they are point guards, they've been point guards their whole lives. Same goes for Lonzo, he's actually what you would probably create in a lab if you wanted to create a point guard.

 

[intlzncster]

Mike Conley and Kyrie Irving are called point guards because they are point guards, they've been point guards their whole lives. Same goes for Lonzo, he's actually what you would probably create in a lab if you wanted to create a point guard.

I know you like Lonzo, but that was a massive overstatement. You'd give the guy westbrook's athleticism, curry's shot and handle, Kyrie's iso game, Payton's defense, Magic's post up game and passing, Iverson's finishing and toughness and so on and so on...

 

[Walker11]

I really do think Lonzo's court vision and basketball sense are that good. And to me, the "guys who make their teammates bettter" is a real thing, and an incredibly important thing. Do RW's athletic attributes have anything to do with his ability to process an NBA defense? His physical traits make the game easier for him, sure, but these are 2 very different skills. When you combine the 2 skills, you end up with a top 2 player of all time and these aren't exactly the strengths of RW's game. To me, he is actually sub-par in this trait and his amazing success is in spite of this deficiency.

I realize that Summer League is Summer League and we will see how his game translates but Lonzo is getting his teammates sooo many easy buckets. An assist does not equal an assist. Russ is not an exceptional passer and his totals are so high because of the way he dominates the ball. Lonzo is hitting guys for open lay-ups that other players wouldn't even see. And it just benefits the psychology of the team. Anyone who has played basketball, and especially bigs know that when you know the ball will come to you if open, you are going to play harder in all aspects. And the unselfishness is totally contagious. Walton is already talking about how psyched all the wings and bigs are with the Lonzo addition and how he is rubbing off on his teammates.

I don't think there is any doubt that he will be a good player. How good is likely going to depend on his shooting. The other knock was his first step, and I know the aforementioned article hit on his inability to blow by defenders but in actually watching the SL games, he got to the rack much more than I expected.

 

[champs99and04]

Mike Conley and Kyrie Irving are called point guards because they are point guards, they've been point guards their whole lives. Same goes for Lonzo, he's actually what you would probably create in a lab if you wanted to create a point guard.

Irving is a point guard in that he's a really good basketball player who's not that tall. He has an unbelievable handle, which is usually associated with point guard play, so that's fair. A lot of the same things that are being said about Ball now were being said about Conley coming out. Much different players, same limitation in that neither are transcendent athletes or explosive scorers.

 

[champs99and04]

I really do think Lonzo's court vision and basketball sense are that good. And to me, the "guys who make their teammates bettter" is a real thing, and an incredibly important thing. Do RW's athletic attributes have anything to do with his ability to process an NBA defense? His physical traits make the game easier for him, sure, but these are 2 very different skills. When you combine the 2 skills, you end up with a top 2 player of all time and these aren't exactly the strengths of RW's game. To me, he is actually sub-par in this trait and his amazing success is in spite of this deficiency.

I realize that Summer League is Summer League and we will see how his game translates but Lonzo is getting his teammates sooo many easy buckets. An assist does not equal an assist. Russ is not an exceptional passer and his totals are so high because of the way he dominates the ball. Lonzo is hitting guys for open lay-ups that other players wouldn't even see. And it just benefits the psychology of the team. Anyone who has played basketball, and especially bigs know that when you know the ball will come to you if open, you are going to play harder in all aspects. And the unselfishness is totally contagious. Walton is already talking about how psyched all the wings and bigs are with the Lonzo addition and how he is rubbing off on his teammates.

I don't think there is any doubt that he will be a good player. How good is likely going to depend on his shooting. The other knock was his first step, and I know the aforementioned article hit on his inability to blow by defenders but in actually watching the SL games, he got to the rack much more than I expected.

Of course making your teammates better - and I might argue the semantics but I understand how the expression is used - is an important thing. I just question the track record of guys for which it's the thing. Let's review some excerpts from Tyler Ennis' draft profile and see if any of it sounds familiar...

Ennis' playmaking ability is what separates him from other players in this draft class. He is one of the few “pure point guards” you can point to, as he led the NCAA in PPR as a freshman, posting a rate 50% higher than the next best PG. Ennis plays with a maturity beyond his years, as he operates at his own pace, is incredibly unselfish, and is always under control. He whips the ball all over the floor with great timing, moving the ball ahead for easy transition baskets, making pinpoint post-entry passes, and doing a tremendous job executing the pick and roll thanks to his superb ball-handling skills and court vision.

Since 2001, Only six drafted players under the age of 20 have posted a PPR over 5 like Ennis: Mike Conley, Ty Lawson, T.J. Ford, Kendall Marshall, Eric Maynor and Marcus Williams (UConn)—which shows how rare it is to see a player this young show this type of passing acumen at such an early stage. Ennis' excellent feel for the game and anticipation skills show up on the defensive end of the floor too, as he generates a good amount of steals (2.4 per-40). Part of this has to do with the fact that Syracuse plays exclusively in a zone, but his solid wingspan (6-5), quick hands and exceptional instincts also have plenty to do with that.

Ennis is not a prolific or efficient scorer as we'll discuss below, but he does show some promise as a perimeter shooter, which bodes well for his NBA prospects. He's proven capable of making jumpers with his feet set or off the dribble, and has the type of mechanics and touch that lead you to believe he'll continue to improve in time.

Another aspect of Ennis' game that breeds optimism is his demeanor and the confidence he displays. He shows tremendous poise and maturity for his age, as he never looks rattled and seems to elevate his game when his team needs him the most. He took all of Syracuse's big shots this season, leading to some very memorable moments (and some less), but nevertheless proved that he likes the spotlight, has a killer instinct, and won't back down from a challenge.

Note that I'm not comparing the two by any means. Ball is taller, longer, and a considerably better athlete than Ennis, who went 18th for a reason. There are simply specific skill sets - which Kendall Marshall, who's a little bigger, exemplifies better than anyone - that are held hostage by other things...

Which makes it interesting that you say what you do about Russ, because you're spot on. Mix Lonzo's court vision and feel for the game with Russ' athleticism and you basically have LeBron. It's my opinion, though, that you're more likely to reap the immediate benefits of athleticism than any other singular NBA skill. IQ would be at the other end of the spectrum - even for the most intellectually gifted players, the NBA game presents a rapidly interchanging puzzle that Westbrook, as a ten year veteran, might actually be better equipped to handle than Lonzo if for no other reason than that he's seen it.

So I expect Lonzo to be good, he's just going to have to show some things that he didn't at UCLA if he's going to be as transformative a player as some are hoping for him to be. The list of great NBA point guards who are neither freak athletes nor gifted scorers is thin. The question for me is whether Lonzo has that reservoir of next level athleticism and skill in him to unlock what can make him special.

DraftExpress - Tyler Ennis DraftExpress Profile: Stats, Comparisons, and Outlook

 

[Walker11]

Of course making your teammates better - and I might argue the semantics but I understand how the expression is used - is an important thing. I just question the track record of guys for which it's the thing. Let's review some excerpts from Tyler Ennis' draft profile and see if any of it sounds familiar...

Ennis' playmaking ability is what separates him from other players in this draft class. He is one of the few “pure point guards” you can point to, as he led the NCAA in PPR as a freshman, posting a rate 50% higher than the next best PG. Ennis plays with a maturity beyond his years, as he operates at his own pace, is incredibly unselfish, and is always under control. He whips the ball all over the floor with great timing, moving the ball ahead for easy transition baskets, making pinpoint post-entry passes, and doing a tremendous job executing the pick and roll thanks to his superb ball-handling skills and court vision.

Since 2001, Only six drafted players under the age of 20 have posted a PPR over 5 like Ennis: Mike Conley, Ty Lawson, T.J. Ford, Kendall Marshall, Eric Maynor and Marcus Williams (UConn)—which shows how rare it is to see a player this young show this type of passing acumen at such an early stage. Ennis' excellent feel for the game and anticipation skills show up on the defensive end of the floor too, as he generates a good amount of steals (2.4 per-40). Part of this has to do with the fact that Syracuse plays exclusively in a zone, but his solid wingspan (6-5), quick hands and exceptional instincts also have plenty to do with that.

Ennis is not a prolific or efficient scorer as we'll discuss below, but he does show some promise as a perimeter shooter, which bodes well for his NBA prospects. He's proven capable of making jumpers with his feet set or off the dribble, and has the type of mechanics and touch that lead you to believe he'll continue to improve in time.

Another aspect of Ennis' game that breeds optimism is his demeanor and the confidence he displays. He shows tremendous poise and maturity for his age, as he never looks rattled and seems to elevate his game when his team needs him the most. He took all of Syracuse's big shots this season, leading to some very memorable moments (and some less), but nevertheless proved that he likes the spotlight, has a killer instinct, and won't back down from a challenge.

Note that I'm not comparing the two by any means. Ball is taller, longer, and a considerably better athlete than Ennis, who went 18th for a reason. There are simply specific skill sets - which Kendall Marshall, who's a little bigger, exemplifies better than anyone - that are held hostage by other things...

Which makes it interesting that you say what you do about Russ, because you're spot on. Mix Lonzo's court vision and feel for the game with Russ' athleticism and you basically have LeBron. It's my opinion, though, that you're more likely to reap the immediate benefits of athleticism than any other singular NBA skill. IQ would be at the other end of the spectrum - even for the most intellectually gifted players, the NBA game presents a rapidly interchanging puzzle that Westbrook, as a ten year veteran, might actually be better equipped to handle than Lonzo if for no other reason than that he's seen it.

So I expect Lonzo to be good, he's just going to have to show some things that he didn't at UCLA if he's going to be as transformative a player as some are hoping for him to be. The list of great NBA point guards who are neither freak athletes nor gifted scorers is thin. The question for me is whether Lonzo has that reservoir of next level athleticism and skill in him to unlock what can make him special.

DraftExpress - Tyler Ennis DraftExpress Profile: Stats, Comparisons, and Outlook

Ah, I see what you mean. The phrase is probably way overused but in my opinion, that is just a scouting report. I never understood any of the Ennis hype. I don't think he made guys better and had tremendous vision - he was just a safe guy who didn't F up a lot. Marshall on the other hand was that type of guy. He is limited by being one of the worst athletes in the NBA. Ball is even moreso that guy, and seems like an type average athlete.

 

[the Q]

Ah, I see what you mean. The phrase is probably way overused but in my opinion, that is just a Shittu scouting report. I never understood any of the Ennis hype. I don't think he made guys better and had tremendous vision - he was just a safe guy who didn't F up a lot. Marshall on the other hand was that type of guy. He is limited by being one of the worst athletes in the NBA. Ball is even moreso that guy, and seems like an type average athlete.

You saw the effect he had on Harrison Barnes in that 2012 NCAA tourney. Barnes couldn't create his own shot against Ohio (that was the game unc used a wwe eye gouge to steal the ball and win).

 

[champs99and04]

Ah, I see what you mean. The phrase is probably way overused but in my opinion, that is just a Shittu scouting report. I never understood any of the Ennis hype. I don't think he made guys better and had tremendous vision - he was just a safe guy who didn't F up a lot. Marshall on the other hand was that type of guy. He is limited by being one of the worst athletes in the NBA. Ball is even moreso that guy, and seems like an type average athlete.

I never understood the Ennis hype, either. (Of course, I probably parlayed that belief into thinking Bazz would have the better NBA career.) Worth noting as well that Cuse was a meh offensive team that played at a slow tempo.

You saw the effect he had on Harrison Barnes in that 2012 NCAA tourney. Barnes couldn't create his own shot against Ohio (that was the game unc used a wwe eye gouge to steal the ball and win).

That UNC team was a freight train when Marshall was healthy. In addition to Barnes, that was the squad with Zeller and Henson + freshman like Hairston and McAdoo. They were incredible in transition. I think they would have had a real shot at beating Kentucky.

 

[the Q]

I never understood the Ennis hype, either. (Of course, I probably parlayed that belief into thinking Bazz would have the better NBA career.) Worth noting as well that Cuse was a meh offensive team that played at a slow tempo.

That UNC team was a freight train when Marshall was healthy. In addition to Barnes, that was the squad with Zeller and Henson + freshman like Hairston and McAdoo. They were incredible in transition. I think they would have had a real shot at beating Kentucky.

I doubt they beat Kansas anyway. Shame that teams two best players were abysmal in the title game. Tons of easy misses by both tyshawn Taylor and Thomas Robinson had every chance to win that game for Kansas.

 

[champs99and04]

I doubt they beat Kansas anyway. Shame that teams two best players were abysmal in the title game. Tons of easy misses by both tyshawn Taylor and Thomas Robinson had every chance to win that game for Kansas.

Eh. Kansas was outclassed. My recollection is that the score was pretty lopsided throughout, no?

Robinson only did what he did every time he goes up against length - struggle. I said at the time there was no way he should be a top five pick and I can't believe he was after the Kentucky game.

Kansas and Kentucky played earlier that season in the champions classic as well and Kentucky ran away with it. Their only two peers that season were Carolina and Syracuse, both of whom lost key players at the worst time.

 

[the Q]

Eh. Kansas was outclassed. My recollection is that the score was pretty lopsided throughout, no?

Robinson only did what he did every time he goes up against length - struggle. I said at the time there was no way he should be a top five pick and I can't believe he was after the Kentucky game.

Kansas and Kentucky played earlier that season in the champions classic as well and Kentucky ran away with it. Their only two peers that season were Carolina and Syracuse, both of whom lost key players at the worst time.

Kansas was down 3 with like a minute left.

Agreed on Robinson. He missed a Ton of bunnies though. And Taylor went cold at the wort time but still ended the season at like 38% from 3.

 

[champs99and04]

Kansas was down 3 with like a minute left.

Agreed on Robinson. He missed a Ton of bunnies though. And Taylor went cold at the wort time but still ended the season at like 38% from 3.

Looks like they got it as close as five with 1:37 left. Kansas vs. Kentucky - Play-By-Play - April 2, 2012 - ESPN

Other than that, it pretty much fluctuated between 10 and 18. Granted, closer than I remember (I had shut it off at halftime or thereabouts), but they were never really in that game. I thought Louisville had played them a lot more competitively the previous round.

In sum, probably one of Self's best coaching jobs, IMO. Outside of Taylor and Robinson that team was thin. They were starting guys like Travis Releford and Elijah Johnson and had next to no bench.

 

[the Q]

Looks like they got it as close as five with 1:37 left. Kansas vs. Kentucky - Play-By-Play - April 2, 2012 - ESPN

Other than that, it pretty much fluctuated between 10 and 18. Granted, closer than I remember (I had shut it off at halftime or thereabouts), but they were never really in that game. I thought Louisville had played them a lot more competitively the previous round.

In sum, probably one of Self's best coaching jobs, IMO. Outside of Taylor and Robinson that team was thin. They were starting guys like Travis Releford and Elijah Johnson and had next to no bench.

Yeah I thought it was a smudge closer when the wing committed a bad traveling violation rather than shoot a contested 3.

Still that's a ball game.

Forgot that team had whithey too. He's made an NBA career for himself too.

But they both picked the wrong night to have a bad (disastrous?) game.