OT - NBA off-season thread

[HuskyWarrior611]

Again, I'm not saying he's going to be crap, I just think it's tough to gauge in summer league. That's all. I think Tatum looks better than he'll be this year too.

My take on Ball is the same as before. He's got a superlative skill, which will allow him a long and probably successful career. I'm not yet sure how his other skills will translate.

My guess is he will be a very good player in this league, though not a transcendent one. Though, much of his ceiling will depend on who he's surrounded with, given his skill set. If he gets paired with a HOF scorer and another All Star, the assessment could change. I don't see him as a guy who's going to take over games all by himself a la Harden/Westbrook. If he develops those things he is currently weak in, the assessment could change.

I agree will be fun to watch.

Tatum is going to be a great scorer. I love the moves he shows as a 1 on 1 scorer and he can spot up to shoot too.
Ball is definitely not the Harden/Westbrook type because his game doesn't require high usage which is one of my favorite things. He doesn't hold the ball and looks to give it up quickly to make a good play. That ability plus the IQ to move off the ball can make for a transcendent career IMO. Being in LA and being a player who looks to enjoy making his teammates look I can't see guys not beating down the door to go play with him. Especially in this league where PGs are primarily score first or want to dominate the ball.

 

[intlzncster]

That ability plus the IQ to move off the ball can make for a transcendent career IMO. Being in LA and being a player who looks to enjoy making his teammates look I can't see guys not beating down the door to go play with him.

This is a good point. It's gonna come down to how Magic manages the cap then. Got to be careful and set them up for long term success. No bad contracts.

 

[champs99and04]

Michael Carter Williams didn't have close to the jump shot or vision Lonzo has. His jump shot is funky but it's effective.

Lonzo IMO is truly going to be a generational type of player. He knows how to play winning basketball and his unselfishness and willingness to make his teammates look good will draw talent to come play with him. Having a 6'6 PG who knows how to move the ball and play without it too is just so dangerous. This game is about matchups and he is a mismatch for opposing shorter guards. He's going to be scary as he gets stronger and his scoring improves.

His jump shot might be effective, but he hasn't proven it so far in summer league. And my bigger concern - as tzzn mentioned - is whether he can get separation. I don't know if he can hold up as a #1 usage guy. You need to be able to punish guys 1 on 1 and I don't know if he can do that consistently.

He'll struggle defensively early in his career. Long-term, though, his size makes him intriguing, and one thing that jumps off the screen is that he shot 73% from two in college. His end game to me is a swing man who can slice into the defense when the ball is reversed - that's where the court vision will become fatal more so than when he's orchestrating from the top of the key. He won't have the same autonomy that he did at UCLA, but if he can develop a Shaun Livingston type post game and a reliable enough three point shot, he could have tremendous value in the league. But it won't be, IMO, as a traditional point guard. I don't think we're saying Jason Kidd again with the way the game is played now.

 

[superjohn]

His jump shot might be effective, but he hasn't proven it so far in summer league. And my bigger concern - as tzzn mentioned - is whether he can get separation. I don't know if he can hold up as a #1 usage guy. You need to be able to punish guys 1 on 1 and I don't know if he can do that consistently.

He'll struggle defensively early in his career. Long-term, though, his size makes him intriguing, and one thing that jumps off the screen is that he shot 73% from two in college. His end game to me is a swing man who can slice into the defense when the ball is reversed - that's where the court vision will become fatal more so than when he's orchestrating from the top of the key. He won't have the same autonomy that he did at UCLA, but if he can develop a Shaun Livingston type post game and a reliable enough three point shot, he could have tremendous value in the league. But it won't be, IMO, as a traditional point guard. I don't think we're saying Jason Kidd again with the way the game is played now.

WTF, you don't think he's a point guard?

 

[Walker11]

WTF, you don't think he's a point guard?

I disagree with Champs but that idea has been bouncing around. I've recently heard a handful of NBA writers say they think he will end up as a ball moving 2 because of his inability in breaking down in 1v1. Ludicrous idea IMO considering Ball looks to be a generational type passer. If Ricky Rubio can be a middle of the road starting PG, why the hell isn't Lonzo going to play PG.

 

[the Q]

Perhaps not. But if I was a coach, I'd want to cut off the head of the dragon, so the body dies. But I'm not Pop or Stevens. They'll figure it out.

Calhoun did that in the 99 championship game. Focused Moore on Avery than Langdan.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

This is a good point. It's gonna come down to how Magic manages the cap then. Got to be careful and set them up for long term success. No bad contracts.

They made some great moves this offseason. Next offseason is going to be even bigger.

 

[Huskyforlife]

Fultz will be the best player in this draft. Obviously Ball is off to a stronger start, but I still believe Fultz is more talented.

 

[Walker11]

It seems like there should be enough hoops junkies to actually get a Boneyard NBA fantasy league this season. Preferably $$.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

His jump shot might be effective, but he hasn't proven it so far in summer league. And my bigger concern - as tzzn mentioned - is whether he can get separation. I don't know if he can hold up as a #1 usage guy. You need to be able to punish guys 1 on 1 and I don't know if he can do that consistently.

He'll struggle defensively early in his career. Long-term, though, his size makes him intriguing, and one thing that jumps off the screen is that he shot 73% from two in college. His end game to me is a swing man who can slice into the defense when the ball is reversed - that's where the court vision will become fatal more so than when he's orchestrating from the top of the key. He won't have the same autonomy that he did at UCLA, but if he can develop a Shaun Livingston type post game and a reliable enough three point shot, he could have tremendous value in the league. But it won't be, IMO, as a traditional point guard. I don't think we're saying Jason Kidd again with the way the game is played now.

He's struggling some from 3 but the fact that he isn't afraid to pull it and it does fall some still are encouraging signs. Shows he still wants to be a threat from out there unlike guys like Rondo, Kidd, etc.

The part in bold is actually the biggest thing I like about his game. He doesn't have to dominate the ball and have a high usage to be effective. From what I watched when I see him play his purpose is to simply make the best play. He wants his teammates to get the ball and score or make a play. If he doesn't have it he's cutting, screening, going for offensive boards, etc. He scores either when he needs too or when the help defense is sticking to defenders because of that ability to find them.

Defensively I see him like Steph. Not good at staying in front of guys but a great help defender safety type. Especially with his length.

I know he's not the typical score first PG of today's league that can drop 30 on you on any given night but I also don't see him as a Ricky or Jason Kidd who can't really score on you. Which I'm going to be very excited to see how it plays out. Love watching him play honestly. I remember thinking Jalen was the best PG in the country before watching how easy he made the game look at UCLA.

 

[NielsisGood]

Ball's not been shooting well nor has he been able to get great separation. The shooting may come. The dribble separation may not.

Six Takeaways From the 2017 Las Vegas Summer League

I love KOC, might be my favorite NBA writer already. Probably worth noting that he hasn't been super high on Lonzo throughout the draft process, and he's always been very high on Dennis Smith Jr and Donovan Mitchell. I agree with his takes but there's probably also some confirmation bias going on in that article as well.

 

[bballgrda]

I love KOC, might be my favorite NBA writer already. Probably worth noting that he hasn't been super high on Lonzo throughout the draft process, and he's always been very high on Dennis Smith Jr and Donovan Mitchell. I agree with his takes but there's probably also some confirmation bias going on in that article as well.

There are plenty of smart NBA observers high on Lonzo. Kevin Pelton had him as his highest rated prospect.

 

[NielsisGood]

There are plenty of smart NBA observers high on Lonzo. Kevin Pelton had him as his highest rated prospect.

Not disagreeing with that. Just saying KOC is more likely to be predisposed to being critical of Lonzo.

 

[Mr. French]

He's struggling some from 3 but the fact that he isn't afraid to pull it and it does fall some still are encouraging signs. Shows he still wants to be a threat from out there unlike guys like Rondo, Kidd, etc.

The part in bold is actually the biggest thing I like about his game. He doesn't have to dominate the ball and have a high usage to be effective. From what I watched when I see him play his purpose is to simply make the best play. He wants his teammates to get the ball and score or make a play. If he doesn't have it he's cutting, screening, going for offensive boards, etc. He scores either when he needs too or when the help defense is sticking to defenders because of that ability to find them.

Defensively I see him like Steph. Not good at staying in front of guys but a great help defender safety type. Especially with his length.

I know he's not the typical score first PG of today's league that can drop 30 on you on any given night but I also don't see him as a Ricky or Jason Kidd who can't really score on you. Which I'm going to be very excited to see how it plays out. Love watching him play honestly. I remember thinking Jalen was the best PG in the country before watching how easy he made the game look at UCLA.

I'm not actually commenting on any of your overall points, but rather that your commentary on Kidd in those points is a bit off.

I'd say Kidd was VERY similar to Lonzo as a player and prospect coming into the league, but the 2 specific points you made about him are off:

(1) he wasn't a good shooter to start, when he was at his peak, but he developed into a good 3 point shooter towards the end of his career (you didn't make that distinction);

and

(2) he wasn't the prototype scorer, esp w how we see PGs today, but don't mistake that for a guy who "can't really score on you."

 

[BUConn10]

Fultz will be the best player in this draft. Obviously Ball is off to a stronger start, but I still believe Fultz is more talented.

You spelled Tatum wrong.

 

[Walker11]

I love KOC, might be my favorite NBA writer already. Probably worth noting that he hasn't been super high on Lonzo throughout the draft process, and he's always been very high on Dennis Smith Jr and Donovan Mitchell. I agree with his takes but there's probably also some confirmation bias going on in that article as well.

I need to give O'Conner another chance. I have heard good things about him from several people, but I was really turned off on my first impression of him. He was such a doormat to Simmons on the podcast and made me cringe as he agreed with each of Simmons' horrible takes. It just made me miss Zach Lowe calling him out on his BS. Also, their NBA writers seem to be quite bad in general, other than O'Conner I guess. The first article I read from Tjarks was so stupid I can't get the bad taste out.

 

[gtcam]

Michael Carter Williams didn't have close to the jump shot or vision Lonzo has. His jump shot is funky but it's effective.

Lonzo IMO is truly going to be a generational type of player. He knows how to play winning basketball and his unselfishness and willingness to make his teammates look good will draw talent to come play with him. Having a 6'6 PG who knows how to move the ball and play without it too is just so dangerous. This game is about matchups and he is a mismatch for opposing shorter guards. He's going to be scary as he gets stronger and his scoring improves.

Play without the ball? where have you seen that?
he is a weak defender and gets lost on D
He hasn't proven he can play winning ball at the NBA level-especially when playing in the summer league
yeah he could be very good but he hasn't played anyone yet

 

[Jerry1714]

Ainge is a schmuck for not taking him.

Nah he just took the best rookie in the class so far: Kia Rookie Ladder: John Collins, Dennis Smith Jr. make strong showings

Tatum only played 3 games in Vegas including his team beating Ball's with JT going for 27 and 11.

But I am glad you are won over by twitter clips. Tatum was hands down the best rookie over the course of the summer leagues.

 

[Jerry1714]

I did not mean to say Tatum was hands down the best player over the course of the summer league, meant to say you could argue he was the best player. Was reading something as I wrote and messed up.

Tatum, Ball, Smith, and Mitchell were all excellent over the summer leagues. Knicks messed up big time (shocking) by passing on Smith. This rookie class is really really good.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

I'm not actually commenting on any of your overall points, but rather that your commentary on Kidd in those points is a bit off.

I'd say Kidd was VERY similar to Lonzo as a player and prospect coming into the league, but the 2 specific points you made about him are off:

(1) he wasn't a good shooter to start, when he was at his peak, but he developed into a good 3 point shooter towards the end of his career (you didn't make that distinction);

and

(2) he wasn't the prototype scorer, esp w how we see PGs today, but don't mistake that for a guy who "can't really score on you."

You're definitely right about the 1st point. Jason Kidd is iffy with me on the scoring though. Now Jason Kidd's peak was a little before I really started to understand basketball but was he that dynamic of a scorer who could even play off ball?

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Play without the ball? where have you seen that?
he is a weak defender and gets lost on D
He hasn't proven he can play winning ball at the NBA level-especially when playing in the summer league
yeah he could be very good but he hasn't played anyone yet

You see it on those alley oop lobs he throws down in his highlights because he made a good cut in his highlights. Or when he comes off a screen to pop a three.

Yes his on ball defense is not good but as I said before he can be a great safety type of a good team defense with his length and IQ. Like Steph Curry. His team did also just win the summer league championship. Albeit without him in the last game.

 

[NielsisGood]

I need to give O'Conner another chance. I have heard good things about him from several people, but I was really turned off on my first impression of him. He was such a doormat to Simmons on the podcast and made me cringe as he agreed with each of Simmons' horrible takes. It just made me miss Zach Lowe calling him out on his BS. Also, their NBA writers seem to be quite bad in general, other than O'Conner I guess. The first article I read from Tjarks was so stupid I can't get the bad taste out.

Simmons generally cedes to KOC nowadays whenever he's on the pod. Just kind of clears out and lets KOC say his piece.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I honestly saw mostly the first spate of games, but kinda shocked that Lonzo was Vegas Summer MVP with the awful game on his resume and ducking the Fox rematch game + missing the last 2 games. Kind of a fix, but he joins some prestigious company
Vegas Summer League MVP Winners
2014-Glen Rice Jr
2015-Kyle Anderson
2016-Tyus Jones
2017-Lonzo Ball
Ball just might have a better career than any of those guys!

Sarcasm aside, I think he's obviously a tremendous passer and will have that extra pass contagious affect on any team he plays on. But he's polarizing due to shortcomings in his game and the family BS. Makes for the perfect Laker and although I like parts of his game I'll also enjoy rooting against him and claiming that his stats are shallow victories ala this silly mvp award.

 

[intlzncster]

Yes his on ball defense is not good but as I said before he can be a great safety type of a good team defense with his length and IQ. Like Steph Curry. His team did also just win the summer league championship. Albeit without him in the last game.

Not for nothing, but the Warriors D shouldn't be used as an example for hiding a weak defender. Their D is otherwordly, and with Klay, Durant, and Green, all time even. Those guys are among the best defenders in the whole league. Heck even the role players D up (Iggy).

They are the gold standard. Not easily replicated.

 

[Mr. French]

You're definitely right about the 1st point. Jason Kidd is iffy with me on the scoring though. Now Jason Kidd's peak was a little before I really started to understand basketball but was he that dynamic of a scorer who could even play off ball?

Well, not really, no ... He could score though. He was a magician in transition and scored plenty, but was not a pure bred scorer. He's a PG in the truest sense.

That's why I sort of agreed and disagreed, because you were a bit too far with his deficiencies, but overall his game is the same type of game as Lonzo's where he won't ever be the #1 scorer, but he sure could if needed.