OT: NBA Finals

[Kembacity]

Watching ESPN loosely last little while, showed Bron and Steph walking in and just keeping to themselves. Then they show Delly and he stops and fist pumps every single Police-Security person in the area. Really classy whether you don't like him or not.

I am a fan.

Now that is class, who cares if he tries to injure everyone on the other team if he's dapping security guys

If you want to like the guy, fine, but you're falling for the easiest "look at what a great guy I am" move ever.

Like since I don't fawn over LeBron you guys probably think I love Steph, but when they won last night and his celebration was shouting "WHAT!? WHAT!? WHAT!? WHAT!?" with each teammate one by one as he wandered the court, I had an awful taste in my mouth. Highly annoying

 

[Kembacity]

Superjohn I know you don't prefer losers to get the MVP and that logic is understandable. I will say that too mostly everyone and I would bet you as well, would admit that the most VALUABLE player was Lebron, and his historic numbers prove it.

Either way it was a pleasure for this non NBA fan to witness MJ, Magic, Bird and other greats again through Lebron. Curry's play to me was so enjoyable to watch as well, he was like he was at Davidson again.

I do wonder if this Finals loss affects Lebron's legacy, even though I say this loss deserves an asterisk and should not impact it.

As for GSW, they were very impressive. Mark Jackson is a pro but it had to be tough calling this series. Kerr did what he couldn't do. In fact Kerr had a case to be named Coach of the Year.

so you really think LeBron still should have won it after the game he played last night? He was missing EVERYTHING in the second half, you could see in his head he began to just seek contact because he couldn't hit a thing.

He had to play out of his mind to deserve the MVP winning only 2 games in the series. I don't care if you lose your whole team and its 5 on 1, the award should be given fairly.

This will not tarnish lebrons legacy at all, he went out like a man, he was far outmatched. His career is nowhere near over, if this were his last shot with an aging body, maybe you'd be on to something but this is a speed bump along the way. If he wins 2 with Cleveland people probably wont remember this too much.

 

[Kitaman]

so you really think LeBron still should have won it after the game he played last night? He was missing EVERYTHING in the second half, you could see in his head he began to just seek contact because he couldn't hit a thing.

He had to play out of his mind to deserve the MVP winning only 2 games in the series. I don't care if you lose your whole team and its 5 on 1, the award should be given fairly.

This will not tarnish lebrons legacy at all, he went out like a man, he was far outmatched. His career is nowhere near over, if this were his last shot with an aging body, maybe you'd be on to something but this is a speed bump along the way. If he wins 2 with Cleveland people probably wont remember this too much.

Not at all, I was just stating the obvious that he was the most valuable player to either team. Take him out and there is no series. He provided the mmost value.

I have no problem with them issuing it to a GS player, non whatsoever.

 

[superjohn]

Superjohn I know you don't prefer losers to get the MVP and that logic is understandable. I will say that too mostly everyone and I would bet you as well, would admit that the most VALUABLE player was Lebron, and his historic numbers prove it.

Either way it was a pleasure for this non NBA fan to witness MJ, Magic, Bird and other greats again through Lebron. Curry's play to me was so enjoyable to watch as well, he was like he was at Davidson again.

I do wonder if this Finals loss affects Lebron's legacy, even though I say this loss deserves an asterisk and should not impact it.

As for GSW, they were very impressive. Mark Jackson is a pro but it had to be tough calling this series. Kerr did what he couldn't do. In fact Kerr had a case to be named Coach of the Year.

Lebron is an amazing player but I guess I wasn't as blown away by his performance as everyone else. People are going crazy over how much of the offensive production he accounted for, I expect that when you always have the ball in your hands every single possession in ISO situations. It's not a recipe for winning basketball but it was necessary since the Cavs were undermanned. It's an inefficient style of play, he played as I expected him to and the team results were expected. Yes, I want the MVP going to a winning player.

 

[superjohn]

Green is a fine player, but if you're another team's front office, do you pay big money to him and build a team around him? Right now he's the 3rd or 4th option on offense and a defensive anchor. Maybe that isn't the debate happening, but I do think he works perfectly on this team, and would definitely not garner this much attention if he was the #1 option and wasnt surrounded by an MVP and great shooters. Look at all those players above. Most were option #1 and were for a decade at least. And lets be honest, he got a triple double in the finals against a gassed Lebron and a collection of journeymen who have no business starting a finals game. Great achievement for sure, but he he has a looooong way to go before he can be mentioned in the same sentence as the names above.

Don't think anyone in the league considers Green a #1.

 

[TasteofUConn]

I thought LeBron had a bad Game 6. It seemed as though he didn't hit a hot in the 2nd half, and particularly any distance shots when they made the late rally. I also thought the Cavs gave up a bit when it wasn't out of reach. Understandable, give how lousy they were playing and how many open 3s they gave up, but there it is.

 

[tzznandrew]

Lebron is an amazing player but I guess I wasn't as blown away by his performance as everyone else. People are going crazy over how much of the offensive production he accounted for, I expect that when you always have the ball in your hands every single possession in ISO situations. It's not a recipe for winning basketball but it was necessary since the Cavs were undermanned. It's an inefficient style of play, he played as I expected him to and the team results were expected. Yes, I want the MVP going to a winning player.

He shot under 40% for the series. That's not impressive.

It's the rebounds and assists that help make up for that. But, yeah, I was sort of ambivalent on who won MVP.

 

[champs99and04]

Lebron is an amazing player but I guess I wasn't as blown away by his performance as everyone else. People are going crazy over how much of the offensive production he accounted for, I expect that when you always have the ball in your hands every single possession in ISO situations. It's not a recipe for winning basketball but it was necessary since the Cavs were undermanned. It's an inefficient style of play, he played as I expected him to and the team results were expected. Yes, I want the MVP going to a winning player.

Agreed. People are fawning over his finals performance, talking about how he's playing the best basketball of his career and how he may have had the best finals performance of all-time...I don't see it.

I mean, he was sensational, make no mistake...but what did people expect with LeBron being the only guy on his team able to create anything? Any past version of LeBron was capable of pulling off those sort of numbers - and the one that shot the ball better may have been able to one-up what he did this year - but he simply didn't have to because the circumstances never forced his hand.

 

[Gurleyman]

Agreed. People are fawning over his finals performance, talking about how he's playing the best basketball of his career and how he may have had the best finals performance of all-time...I don't see it. I mean, he was sensational, make no mistake...but what did people expect with LeBron being the only guy on his team able to create anything? Any past version of LeBron was capable of pulling off those sort of numbers - and the one that shot the ball better may have been able to one-up what he did this year - but he simply didn't have to because the circumstances never forced his hand.

This was a great, great series for stats, but there wasn't really a signature moment, or a signature crunch time run for him. He missed both game-winners and didn't take over late In a tight game. He hit a big three to push the lead from 4 to 7, but that was after Delly hit the circus shot and FT to push it from 1-4, which is more memorable.

He can't be faulted in any way for losing this series, and I don't think any rational people ever will. But at the same time, it was a bit of a missed opportunity to not be able to add something of substance in crunch time to his resume. If he, say, hit those three threes that JR Smith did, it would be remembered. There's nothing from this series other than crazy stats that'll stand up over time (he did have the big shot vs the Bulls in the ECF though).

 

[Walker11]

What Bron did is what Russ did during the regular season for that stretch. Not very efficient, but unbelievable on paper.

 

[traitor71]

I thought LeBron had a bad Game 6. It seemed as though he didn't hit a hot in the 2nd half, and particularly any distance shots when they made the late rally. I also thought the Cavs gave up a bit when it wasn't out of reach. Understandable, give how lousy they were playing and how many open 3s they gave up, but there it is.

Lebron definitely did. There was a huddle with a few minutes left when the Cavs took the court and James was still sitting and had to be practically dragged onto the floor by Mike Miller. I'm not trying to beat the guy up for it, just saying that he looked beaten and it is understandable. To me, the big shock of that moment was that Miller didn't hurt himself lifting James up.

 

[James]

Kerr had scouted Curry as the general manager in Phoenix and desperately wanted to draft him in 2009. He saw brilliance in the young point guard's play that reminded him of Steve Nash. He saw character in him that reminded him of Tim Duncan.

quote from an espn. just a reminder kerr is the same guy infatuated with napier and laughed at the idea that spo brought him off the bench... never mind burying him deep in the doghouse ( said he should be a starter in 2014/2015) . referred to bazz as a guy who can PASS and SHOOT FROM RANGE. aka the two most important things in modern basketball. the guy can evaluate talent look at his phx days.

i would take this opp to start calling out okc beatwriters for trashing lamb and not even acknowledging him leading up to the draft, but we will wait and see if donovon takes a liking to jeremy. (doubt it due to the insane clusterfuq at shooting guard thanks to presti)

 

[MilliniumPrince]

When you consider the load he carried, the fact there was no second option, he carried team comprised of bench players to game 6 against a 67 win team featuring the reining MVP....I have never seen anything like it. He simply ran out of gas each game as logic would dictate.

I was already a fan but this performance was unreal. Hell, they couldn't rest him for more than a minute at a time or GSW would go on a big run. It was beautiful to watch even if it wasn't a beautiful style. All respect to Golden State, but if you inverted the scenario...no way would Curry with a depleted team force a healthy Cavs team to 6 games.

When Jordan was scoring 37.8 points per game he couldn't get a bad team this far. That is not a knock because in a team sport no one player should be able to do that. Steve Nash won two MVPs and never carried a loaded team to the Finals. Wilt couldn't beat the Celtics, etc. This performance was simply amazing.

 

[aceboon]

When you consider the load he carried, the fact there was no second option, he carried team comprised of bench players to game 6 against a 67 win team featuring the reining MVP....I have never seen anything like it. He simply ran out of gas each game as logic would dictate.

I was already a fan but this performance was unreal. Hell, they couldn't rest him for more than a minute at a time or GSW would go on a big run. It was beautiful to watch even if it wasn't a beautiful style. All respect to Golden State, but if you inverted the scenario...no way would Curry with a depleted team force a healthy Cavs team to 6 games.

When Jordan was scoring 37.8 points per game he couldn't get a bad team this far. That is not a knock because in a team sport no one player should be able to do that. Steve Nash won two MVPs and never carried a loaded team to the Finals. Wilt couldn't beat the Celtics, etc. This performance was simply amazing.

Not saying Jordan would be able to duplicate the "team" performance of going 6 games in the Finals, but lets not make it out to be Lebron carrying this same team of bums for the entire season. He basically had to do from game 4 or so on of the ECSF against teams that weren't very good in the Bulls and the Hawks(the Hawks were a shell of themselves by the end of their playoff run with their injuries). Its no doubt impressive that they were able to get 2 games off of a 67 win team, but the great defensive team the Cavs morphed into also played a role in that.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Not saying Jordan would be able to duplicate the "team" performance of going 6 games in the Finals, but lets not make it out to be Lebron carrying this same team of bums for the entire season. He basically had to do from game 4 or so on of the ECSF against teams that weren't very good in the Bulls and the Hawks(the Hawks were a shell of themselves by the end of their playoff run with their injuries). Its no doubt impressive that they were able to get 2 games off of a 67 win team, but the great defensive team the Cavs morphed into also played a role in that.

Their 3rd best player gets hurt in the 1st series. He happened to be the player with whom Lebron had the best plus/minus. 2nd best player get hurt in the conference finals, plays 1 game in the Finals..which they lost. Only one member of the starting 5 was with the team to start the season. Three of them were supposed to be bench players. Dellavaova sp? Almost lost his roster spot to AJ Price. Add a rookie head coach and he still carried them to a competitive series against a 67 win team from a superior conference.

I am not making anything out to be anything. Those are the facts of the situation. Other players and coaches are gushing over the performance. If you don't see..you just don't see it. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[aceboon]

Their 3rd best player gets hurt in the 1st series. He happened to be the player with whom Lebron had the best plus/minus. 2nd best player get hurt in the conference finals, plays 1 game in the Finals..which they lost. Only one member of the starting 5 was with the team to start the season. Three of them were supposed to be bench players. Dellavaova sp? Almost lost his roster spot to AJ Price. Add a rookie head coach and he still carried them to a competitive series against a 67 win team from a superior conference.

I am not making anything out to be anything. Those are the facts of the situation. Other players and coaches are gushing over the performance. If you don't see..you just don't see it. Nothing wrong with that.

It was a great performance, but the East is garbage. I don't think Jordan could win a title with this group but do I think he could taken the same cast of role players that transformed into a great defensive unit and beat a banged up Hawks team playing Kent Bazemore and Shelvin Mack heavy minutes? Yes, yes I do. As a Bulls fan they were never very good after their initial early season burst and they had their own injuries to deal with in Gasol and Rose still not being what he used to be. The Celtics series isn't worth mentioning, they were a sub 500 team full of role players. I can acknowledge Bron's greatness while at the same time seeing the East for what it is, a bunch of mediocre teams that provides him a much easier path to the Finals than Jordan had during the 80s when he was a one man show.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

It was a great performance, but the East is garbage. I don't think Jordan could win a title with this group but do I think he could taken the same cast of role players that transformed into a great defensive unit and beat a banged up Hawks team playing Kent Bazemore and Shelvin Mack heavy minutes? Yes, yes I do. As a Bulls fan they were never very good after their initial early season burst and they had their own injuries to deal with in Gasol and Rose still not being what he used to be. The Celtics series isn't worth mentioning, they were a sub 500 team full of role players. I can acknowledge Bron's greatness while at the same time seeing the East for what it is, a bunch of mediocre teams that provides him a much easier path to the Finals than Jordan had during the 80s when he was a one man show.

Banged up Hawks.....didn't Kyrie sit out 2 straight games in that series? He was hurt in the games he played. I think Love had surgery during one game, didn't play at all. It is what it is. My opinion isn't worth much outside my house. I can look at what his peers are saying and that tells me all I need to know. Game respects Game and Ball don't lie.

 

[aceboon]

Banged up Hawks.....didn't Kyrie sit out 2 straight games in that series? He was hurt in the games he played. I think Love had surgery during one game, didn't play at all. It is what it is. My opinion isn't worth much outside my house. I can look at what his peers are saying and that tells me all I need to know. Game respects Game and Ball don't lie.

Yes Kyrie barely played the series, while the Hawks lost Korver, had Carroll playing on one leg after game 2 after a nasty knee sprain/bruise that had everyone thinking he was done for the season, Horford had a dislocated pinky finger on his shooting hand that he injured in game 1 of the postseason and it bothered him for the duration of the playoffs, and Paul Milsap played through a shoulder injury that caused him to sit out at games at the end of the regular season. Korver being easily game planned for in a playoff series already hurt them enough, the injuries just made it even more obvious that this wasn't the same Hawks team that blitzed thru the both conferences during that amazing run they had early in the season.

Hey if you think Bron had a challenging path to get to the Finals then we'll agree to disagree, I was more impressed by winning the 2 games against the Warriors then them getting to the Finals.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Yes Kyrie barely played the series, while the Hawks lost Korver, had Carroll playing on one leg after game 2 after a nasty knee sprain/bruise that had everyone thinking he was done for the season, Horford had a dislocated pinky finger on his shooting hand that he injured in game 1 of the postseason and it bothered him for the duration of the playoffs, and Paul Milsap played through a shoulder injury that caused him to sit out at games at the end of the regular season. Korver being easily game planned for in a playoff series already hurt them enough, the injuries just made it even more obvious that this wasn't the same Hawks team that blitzed thru the both conferences during that amazing run they had early in the season.

Hey if you think Bron had a challenging path to get to the Finals then we'll agree to disagree, I was more impressed by winning the 2 games against the Warriors then them getting to the Finals.

Which was my original point. I think you brought the East into the conversation.

 

[champs99and04]

This was a great, great series for stats, but there wasn't really a signature moment, or a signature crunch time run for him. He missed both game-winners and didn't take over late In a tight game. He hit a big three to push the lead from 4 to 7, but that was after Delly hit the circus shot and FT to push it from 1-4, which is more memorable.

He can't be faulted in any way for losing this series, and I don't think any rational people ever will. But at the same time, it was a bit of a missed opportunity to not be able to add something of substance in crunch time to his resume. If he, say, hit those three threes that JR Smith did, it would be remembered. There's nothing from this series other than crazy stats that'll stand up over time (he did have the big shot vs the Bulls in the ECF though).

I still think the 2009 eastern conference finals against the Magic is the gold standard for LeBron playoff series', or at least those of which he lost. He averaged 39, 8, and 8 in that series (shot 49%) and also mixed in some ballsy crunch-time shots (the game-winner in game two and two do-or-die free throws at the end of game four with the clock off).

I do think there are aspects to his game that were displayed in this series that demonstrate an evolution in his game. Even his willingness alone to attack the basket - particularly out of the post - makes him tougher to defend than he was back then, and his patience in negating the help defense was very impressive. How many times did he wedge through the Golden State defense, jump step, pivot, shot fake and finally clear enough room for himself to release a shot? It wasn't always that the shots he was taking were poor in quality; it was that he had to work so damn hard to get those quality shots, especially with his ailing jump shot.

It's hard not to look at LeBron in this series and wonder how he would have performed at say, 26 or 27, had he been forced to take 30+ shots every game like he was in this series. How many would the guy who sliced up the Celtics with jump shots a couple years ago had dropped if he were playing with that same cast then? He's still overpowering now, but he really was a few years ago. Could that extra lift at the rim have forced Golden State to can the small ball lineups that were so effective? I guess we'll never know.

 

[tzznandrew]

Which was my original point. I think you brought the East into the conversation.

You said Jordan couldn't lead a team this far. That implies getting the Finals, which brings the East into the conversation.

And, in the litany of Hawks injuries ace mentioned, he didn't even mention Thabo not even playing in the post-season.

The East is a joke; when Jordan was a one-man show, the East had: Bird's Celtics, Isaiah's Pistons, Dominique's Hawks, in addition to a strong Bucks team and a decent 76ers team.

It isn't the same as going through the injury ward of an already weak East.

 

[Dogdeacon]

You said Jordan couldn't lead a team this far. That implies getting the Finals, which brings the East into the conversation.

And, in the litany of Hawks injuries ace mentioned, he didn't even mention Thabo not even playing in the post-season.

The East is a joke; when Jordan was a one-man show, the East had: Bird's Celtics, Isaiah's Pistons, Dominique's Hawks, in addition to a strong Bucks team and a decent 76ers team.

It isn't the same as going through the injury ward of an already weak East.

I think it is a really interesting debate on whether Jordan could have gotten a team as far as LeBron did or elevate and dominate the level of play of his teammates. I think the short answer is yes, the flawed too much Jordan teams would have advanced to a finals much like LeBron carried this team or AI carried a flawed Sixers team back in the day. Equally, a dominate Jordan team would have lost just as those two teams did. As tzzn said, Jordan's teams just lost earlier within a stronger conference, mostly to the Pistons.

LeBron was on the cusp of an unprecedented achievement of hoisting a bunch of scrubs onto his back and winning an NBA title so for two-to-three games the conversation was legit and LeBron had entered the stratosphere of comparability to Jordan. But basketball IS a team game and LeBron's unprecedented ball dominant success was ultimately doomed. So its back to the drawing board* and Jordan retains the throne of best ever, even as these comparisons are flawed by time, teammates and opponents.

* What's really cool to me though was just that this suddenly was in play. That's the fun of sports. Going in I thought the Warriors would romp in 5 or 6 with an 80%ish Kyrie on the Cavs. The fact that LeBron made us think the Cavs could win it all without Kyrie was remarkable and even though I was rooting for the Warriors I was simultaneously hoping I'd get to witness something as historic as a player transcending his own skills and elevating an entire team to a unprecedented championship.

 

[CallMeBruce]

I think it is a really interesting debate on whether Jordan could have gotten a team as far as LeBron did or elevate and dominate the level of play of his teammates. I think the short answer is yes, the flawed too much Jordan teams would have advanced to a finals much like LeBron carried this team or AI carried a flawed Sixers team back in the day. Equally, a dominate Jordan team would have lost just as those two teams did. As tzzn said, Jordan's teams just lost earlier within a stronger conference, mostly to the Pistons.

LeBron was on the cusp of an unprecedented achievement of hoisting a bunch of scrubs onto his back and winning an NBA title so for two-to-three games the conversation was legit and LeBron had entered the stratosphere of comparability to Jordan. But basketball IS a team game and LeBron's unprecedented ball dominant success was ultimately doomed. So its back to the drawing board and Jordan retains the throne of best ever, even as these comparisons are flawed by time, teammates and opponents.

AI absolutely did not carry that team into the finals. Iverson shot 34% in that ECF, and his advanced metrics were no better. An eFG% of .376 and even a TS% of .435 are both terrible. The Sixers won that series because of how good Mutombo was relative to Milwaukee's atrocious frontline of Ervin Johnson, Scott Williams, Tim Thomas, and Jason Caffey, and because of legendarily poor officiating. The best player in that series was Ray Allen, without question.

 

[Dogdeacon]

AI absolutely did not carry that team into the finals. Iverson shot 34% in that ECF, and his advanced metrics were no better. An eFG% of .376 and even a TS% of .435 are both terrible. The Sixers won that series because of how good Mutombo was relative to Milwaukee's atrocious frontline of Ervin Johnson, Scott Williams, Tim Thomas, and Jason Caffey, and because of legendarily poor officiating. The best player in that series was Ray Allen, without question.

Great annotation. You are 100% right, Milwaukee is unfairly then and now forgotten, was absolutely ROBBED and because AI had the one great finals game (and he was better in finals cum stats than Conf with 44.1% eFG% TS 48.6% & prev semis at 45.0% 50.2%, scoring 34ppg) he gets too much credit. Mutombo was better than Mosgov (didn't get pushed to the bench) and Aaron McKie was a solid glue guy plus led the team in assists (maybe a notch above TThompson). BUT the Sixers only won 1 game, although that clearly was because they failed to give enough minutes to their incredibly efficient and valuable backup PG.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

You said Jordan couldn't lead a team this far. That implies getting the Finals, which brings the East into the conversation.

And, in the litany of Hawks injuries ace mentioned, he didn't even mention Thabo not even playing in the post-season.

The East is a joke; when Jordan was a one-man show, the East had: Bird's Celtics, Isaiah's Pistons, Dominique's Hawks, in addition to a strong Bucks team and a decent 76ers team.

It isn't the same as going through the injury ward of an already weak East.

Jordan played in the East this season?? Damn, how did I miss that news???

I mentioned Jordan as a limited comparison. I did not mention the East, but whatever. Again, ignore my words...his peers said all that was needed.