OT: NBA Finals

[tzznandrew]

Jordan played in the East this season?? Damn, how did I miss that news???

When Jordan was scoring 37.8 points per game he couldn't get a bad team this far. That is not a knock because in a team sport no one player should be able to do that.

So, Jordan played the 2015 Warriors? Or LeBron played in the mid-80s East?

You brought up the comparison...you can't then criticize me for trying to explore that comparison, or putting it in the proper context.

 

[JSM1970]

This is crazy. Would Steph have led his team to the finals, and won any games, with say Klay and any of Iggy, Green, Barnes out?

Umm zero possibility.

 

[aceboon]

Jordan played in the East this season?? Damn, how did I miss that news???

I mentioned Jordan as a limited comparison. I did not mention the East, but whatever. Again, ignore my words...his peers said all that was needed.

If you're going to mention Jordan and cite his numbers from the 80s, I'm not quite sure why you get so defensive when other posters actually apply context and mention the kind of opposition both Jordan and LeBron faced during the eras being compared. Its stating the obvious but you can't compare the road 80s Jordan would have to face in the East to get to the Finals compared to what LeBron just got to walk through.

 

[superjohn]

If you're going to mention Jordan and cite his numbers from the 80s, I'm not quite sure why you get so defensive when other posters actually apply context and mention the kind of opposition both Jordan and LeBron faced during the eras being compared. Its stating the obvious but you can't compare the road 80s Jordan would have to face in the East to get to the Finals compared to what LeBron just got to walk through.

I can compare it, Jordan had to go though one of the toughest gauntlets ever and Lebron basically went throught the CBA.

 

[TasteofUConn]

Everybody can have their own opinion. No doubt.
In life I've found that people tend to think that the heroes of their generation are the best.
People who grew up a few years before me are convinced that 70s rock is the greatest music ever created. They'll listen to Deep Purple and Zep and The Guess Who and so on and posit that all subsequent music paled. They also tend to think that Ali was the greatest ever. That vinyl was superior to digital. And so on.
I saw Jordan's career. The whole thing.
I've seen LBJ's career. So far.
LBJ has carried bums his whole career. The Cavs team he took to the finals (the first time) was a bunch of scrubs. When Jordan was playing with a bunch of scrubs, he had 3 straight first round exits.
ONLY after Pippen arrived did Jordan make it out of the first round.
It wasn't until several years later, when Pippen hit stride and averaged 18/7/6 and almost 3 steals a game, while shooting 52% from the field, that Jordan even made the finals! To most of the generation of fans who saw Jordan "save" the NBA and live a well-orchestrated life of sales that only was revealed to be a brilliant manipulation on the day he opened up at his induction into the HOF, he will always be the greatest ever, no matter what, because he's "Stairway to Heaven" when they were on the bus in the 9th grade smoking a joint and getting a handful. Jordan has always gotten too much credit for the rings, and Pippen has always gotten too little credit.
Swap Jordan for LBJ, and the Cavs don't make the finals this year.
Swap Pippen for Shumpert or Smith, and the Cavs bring home the hardware, even without Love or Irving or Verejao.
Jordan needed a top 50 player by his side to get to the finals. He had that top 50 player for all 5 rings and all 6 finals trips.
Dellavedova, Shupert, Smith, Mozgov. There have been 3,000 NBA players over the last 50 years. Do any of these players even make the top 500 of all time? Top 1,000?
Jordan is a sacred cow for people over 40ish. Just like Ali is for people over 50.
Further, LeBron doesn't care what people think about him. Jordan's whole public persona was molded and micromanaged by his agent. If Jordan had spoken his mind when he played, his legend wouldn't have been nearly what it is today.

 

[Walker11]

Further, LeBron doesn't care what people think about him.

I read the first sentence and last sentence to decide if I wanted to read this brick of text. This quote convinced me not to. Just no, all around.

 

[superjohn]

Everybody can have their own opinion. No doubt.
In life I've found that people tend to think that the heroes of their generation are the best.
People who grew up a few years before me are convinced that 70s rock is the greatest music ever created. They'll listen to Deep Purple and Zep and The Guess Who and so on and posit that all subsequent music paled. They also tend to think that Ali was the greatest ever. That vinyl was superior to digital. And so on.
I saw Jordan's career. The whole thing.
I've seen LBJ's career. So far.
LBJ has carried bums his whole career. The Cavs team he took to the finals (the first time) was a bunch of scrubs. When Jordan was playing with a bunch of scrubs, he had 3 straight first round exits.
ONLY after Pippen arrived did Jordan make it out of the first round.
It wasn't until several years later, when Pippen hit stride and averaged 18/7/6 and almost 3 steals a game, while shooting 52% from the field, that Jordan even made the finals! To most of the generation of fans who saw Jordan "save" the NBA and live a well-orchestrated life of sales that only was revealed to be a brilliant manipulation on the day he opened up at his induction into the HOF, he will always be the greatest ever, no matter what, because he's "Stairway to Heaven" when they were on the bus in the 9th grade smoking a joint and getting a handful. Jordan has always gotten too much credit for the rings, and Pippen has always gotten too little credit.
Swap Jordan for LBJ, and the Cavs don't make the finals this year.
Swap Pippen for Shumpert or Smith, and the Cavs bring home the hardware, even without Love or Irving or Verejao.
Jordan needed a top 50 player by his side to get to the finals. He had that top 50 player for all 5 rings and all 6 finals trips.
Dellavedova, Shupert, Smith, Mozgov. There have been 3,000 NBA players over the last 50 years. Do any of these players even make the top 500 of all time? Top 1,000?
Jordan is a sacred cow for people over 40ish. Just like Ali is for people over 50.
Further, LeBron doesn't care what people think about him. Jordan's whole public persona was molded and micromanaged by his agent. If Jordan had spoken his mind when he played, his legend wouldn't have been nearly what it is today.

Swap Dwyane Wade with anyone else in the NBA and Lebron still doesn't have a single ring.

 

[superjohn]

I read the first sentence and last sentence to decide if I wanted to read this brick of text. This quote convinced me not to. Just no, all around.

In all my years of watching sports I've never seen an athlete that cares about what others think as much as Lebron does, it's pretty much been his only downfall.

 

[James]

lebrons handling of blatt was pretty tasteless this past season. has a lot to do with LBJs insane ego (he left Cleveland a mess the first time around, due demanding the FO to make a bunch of terrible moves involving aging vets and bad contracts. antawn jamison comes to mind.), his time in miami was the sweet spot because riley controlled everything and spo was rileys puppet, not brons. Also had wade to convince him to 'buy in'.

i've never seen an nba player call timeouts the way lebron does, or how he literally ignores blatt. Blatt isn't some dude with delusions of adequacy; he has a lit degree from princeton and has great basketball IQ. I don't see him as a pushover but rather somebody who is sharp and willing to let this thing play out. it would be hilarious if he ended up as a top assistant on a really really good team, like golden state.

 

[champs99and04]

The Blatt thing is so bizarre to me, it's weird that he hasn't gotten any credit for Cleveland's defense vaulting from mediocre to really good in what seemed like one night. I don't think Mike Brown gets that team to the finals.

Windhorst was on ESPN today talking about the relationship, and if his portrayal is at all accurate, it's pretty remarkable if there isn't a massive credibility deficit in the locker room - it has to be tough to coach that way, and I get the sense that Spo was under some of those same shackles his first year.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

He shot under 40% for the series. That's not impressive.

It's the rebounds and assists that help make up for that. But, yeah, I was sort of ambivalent on who won MVP.

Lebron put up great stats, and it was pretty amazing that Cleveland was in this series. He was obviously the best player in the series. But he missed a ton of shots, almost 20 every single game. His per game shooting was like 12-32 or something close. When Kobe or AI used to do that they would get killed. Again they didn't dominate he glass or rack up as many assists as lebron, and lebron really had no choice. But the entire coverage of this series, nobody ever mentioned how many shots he took and missed.

People also act like he had absolutely zero help. Obviously not a very good supporting cast but mozgov and Thompson absolutely dominated down low. And dellavedova played out of his mind for a few games. Shumpert absolutely shut down Klay Thompson. He had some help.

He played great but he wasn't efficient at all and crumbled down the stretch in most games, even game 2 which they won. When his team wins its all because of lebron and when they don't it's everyone else's fault including the coach. It's been like that his entire career.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

It was a great performance, but the East is garbage. I don't think Jordan could win a title with this group but do I think he could taken the same cast of role players that transformed into a great defensive unit and beat a banged up Hawks team playing Kent Bazemore and Shelvin Mack heavy minutes? Yes, yes I do. As a Bulls fan they were never very good after their initial early season burst and they had their own injuries to deal with in Gasol and Rose still not being what he used to be. The Celtics series isn't worth mentioning, they were a sub 500 team full of role players. I can acknowledge Bron's greatness while at the same time seeing the East for what it is, a bunch of mediocre teams that provides him a much easier path to the Finals than Jordan had during the 80s when he was a one man show.

All so true and well put. The east is terrible. Lebrons five straight finals is impressive but just take a look at who he had to beat. Is the pacers the best team? The same pacers that had lance Stephenson as its second or third best player and the only guy other than George who could create his own offense. The guy who couldn't even play for the Bobcats. And even pg only became a star for one year before he got hurt. George hill was their starting point guard. The Bulls never gave Rose anything until this year but they were beat up and Rose isn't himself anymore. The celtics were washed up by the time lebron got to Miami. Howard's magic teams were long gone. I honestly can't even think of one actual legit team he had to beat. Or even a star he had to go against besides rose once and pg once. It really is crazy how weak the east has been for years and years now.

I think it's fair to say lebron wouldn't be making the finals every year against birds Celtics and the bad boy Pistons.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Everybody can have their own opinion. No doubt.
In life I've found that people tend to think that the heroes of their generation are the best.
People who grew up a few years before me are convinced that 70s rock is the greatest music ever created. They'll listen to Deep Purple and Zep and The Guess Who and so on and posit that all subsequent music paled. They also tend to think that Ali was the greatest ever. That vinyl was superior to digital. And so on.
I saw Jordan's career. The whole thing.
I've seen LBJ's career. So far.
LBJ has carried bums his whole career. The Cavs team he took to the finals (the first time) was a bunch of scrubs. When Jordan was playing with a bunch of scrubs, he had 3 straight first round exits.
ONLY after Pippen arrived did Jordan make it out of the first round.
It wasn't until several years later, when Pippen hit stride and averaged 18/7/6 and almost 3 steals a game, while shooting 52% from the field, that Jordan even made the finals! To most of the generation of fans who saw Jordan "save" the NBA and live a well-orchestrated life of sales that only was revealed to be a brilliant manipulation on the day he opened up at his induction into the HOF, he will always be the greatest ever, no matter what, because he's "Stairway to Heaven" when they were on the bus in the 9th grade smoking a joint and getting a handful. Jordan has always gotten too much credit for the rings, and Pippen has always gotten too little credit.
Swap Jordan for LBJ, and the Cavs don't make the finals this year.
Swap Pippen for Shumpert or Smith, and the Cavs bring home the hardware, even without Love or Irving or Verejao.
Jordan needed a top 50 player by his side to get to the finals. He had that top 50 player for all 5 rings and all 6 finals trips.
Dellavedova, Shupert, Smith, Mozgov. There have been 3,000 NBA players over the last 50 years. Do any of these players even make the top 500 of all time? Top 1,000?
Jordan is a sacred cow for people over 40ish. Just like Ali is for people over 50.
Further, LeBron doesn't care what people think about him. Jordan's whole public persona was molded and micromanaged by his agent. If Jordan had spoken his mind when he played, his legend wouldn't have been nearly what it is today.

That's a lot of revisionist history and choosing data points that support your hypothesis. Deep Purple has fans and therefore Jordan is overrated. Did you forget about the Jordan Rules and widespread anecdotes like Will Vanderbilt (wouldn't call him Purdue b/c he wasn't good enough to be named after Big-10 school) and the conspiracy theory that Jordan left the NBA because of gambling problems? We remember the good and forget the rest. Bottom line to me is Jordan was more aesthetically pleasing to watch vs LeBron, MJ was graceful, artful, craftiness combined with awe-dropping athleticism. He played with joy and it translated to the viewer (Curry is similar in this way). LeBron is now in the conversation with Jordan and the debate shouldn't be about calling people biased or pointing out current and past flaws - its supposed to be fun to compare AND it is all subjective.

 

[Gurleyman]

That's a lot of revisionist history and choosing data points that support your hypothesis. Deep Purple has fans and therefore Jordan is overrated. Did you forget about the Jordan Rules and widespread anecdotes like Will Vanderbilt (wouldn't call him Purdue b/c he wasn't good enough to be named after Big-10 school) and the conspiracy theory that Jordan left the NBA because of gambling problems? We remember the good and forget the rest. Bottom line to me is Jordan was more aesthetically pleasing to watch vs LeBron, MJ was graceful, artful, craftiness combined with awe-dropping athleticism. He played with joy and it translated to the viewer (Curry is similar in this way). LeBron is now in the conversation with Jordan and the debate shouldn't be about calling people biased or pointing out current and past flaws - its supposed to be fun to compare AND it is all subjective.

My opinion is that Jordan had a level of F-U competitive fire and will to win that LBJ can't seem to match. You can talk a lot about hypotheticals and who would win if they switched places with who, but the problem for LBJ is the things that really happened in his prime. The Dallas series happened. The Heat lost three in a row and LBJ was -41 in those games (somehow the Heat were +15 with him on the bench, but not sure if garbage time affected that number). He had a 3-14, eight-point clunker in the finals, in his prime. Kawhi Leonard happened. A 22 year old who averaged 12 ppg played him to a standstill head to head three games in a row - all Heat losses. Reggie Miller once got the better of MJ on a game-winning 3 to tie the series 2-2 and MJ outscored him something like 65-24 in the next two games. The Spurs were playing great ball and not sure LBJ could do much about the series, but there's no way Jordan lets a young pup like Leonard go toe to toe with him and win the MVP. That G6 crunch time meltdown happened. The turnover, turnover, brick off backboard sequence in the last two minutes almost cost the Heat a title. LBJ did a ton in this series with but he wore down in the stretch a lot, particularly G4 and G6 at home - the sort of games when you'd like to see that competitive fire overcome fatigue.

Jordan had the death flu in a 2-2 series with Utah and still dropped 39 with clutch shots while Pippen, who you would think should step up in that situation, shot 5-17 (Pipoen shot 6-17 in the G6 clincher too). Pippen had a bad back and was close to useless in 1998 and Jordan scored 45 (Pippen 8) in the clincher that he won with a bucket-steal-bucket finish (Pippen also had 4 in G5). Pippen also shot 34 percent in the Seattle series in his first time back to the finals in three years. He just wasn't a guy you could count on when pressure mounted - he'd get migraines or refuse to go into the game or get worn down. When Pippen played like a mediocre NBA small forward, Jordan still dug down and found the extra gear to carry him.

I think LBJ ranks second behind MJ when it's all said and done. There's no shame in that - MJ was a unique beast. But I don't think he can catch him for the top spot any more. Too many blemishes in his prime. But we'll see - there was a time when MJ seemed unlikely to reach the level he reached. Maybe a few titles in a row here with Love/Irving or whoever else will undo some of the blemishes,

 

[TasteofUConn]

That's a lot of revisionist history and choosing data points that support your hypothesis.

No way. Jordan booted in 1st round in year 1. Jordan booted in round 1 in year 2. Jordan booted in round 1 in year 3. In year 4, Jordan picks up Pippen. Does not get booted in round 1. A few years later, with Pippen maturing to his top-50 form, they go to the finals and win. Very simple, very obvious. Jordan was great, and LBJ doesn't come close to matching his fire. But Jordan gets too much credit - without Pippen, he didn't make it out of the 1st round. When he had three years of bums to carry, he folded 3 times in the 1st round.
If LBJ wants to challenge the career success of Jordan - which is likely not possible now - he needs to be more focused in the finals. He's a Ray Allen miracle shot away from being 1 and 5 in the finals. Win two in a row in the next two years, and I'd have to hand him the "better than Jordan" and "better career than Jordan" trophies.

Regarding Jordan's career, there was no Twitter, and whatever gambling issues he had were never made public. His persona was well managed by the NBA and by his agent. He was the Tiger Woods of his sport. He made everybody more money, so everybody took care of his image. It was not widespread knowledge that he called Will Purdue whatever. Nobody cared. As became clear later in his life, he was somewhat douchy and bitter. But the surprise at him being that way at the HOF induction tells you how well his true attitude was concealed. So what though? I could care less. He should have been money making. I'm just pointing it out, because Jordan was phony during his career, and lived for basketball and himself. LBJ doesn't phony it up to make more money, and he doesn't live for basketball.

 

[Kitaman]

Its unfair to compare the two, though many are doing it (I will admit its fun to read). Jordan was Jordan, Lebron is Lebron, not much in common style wise, individually. However both can be unstoppable.

If there was a coin toss and someone was given Lebron and the other person Jordan, I don't think anyone would come away dejected or jealous. You know you can win a Championship with either player.

 

[Gurleyman]

No way. Jordan booted in 1st round in year 1. Jordan booted in round 1 in year 2. Jordan booted in round 1 in year 3. In year 4, Jordan picks up Pippen. Does not get booted in round 1. A few years later, with Pippen maturing to his top-50 form, they go to the finals and win. Very simple, very obvious. Jordan was great, and LBJ doesn't come close to matching his fire. But Jordan gets too much credit - without Pippen, he didn't make it out of the 1st round. When he had three years of bums to carry, he folded 3 times in the 1st round. If LBJ wants to challenge the career success of Jordan - which is likely not possible now - he needs to be more focused in the finals. He's a Ray Allen miracle shot away from being 1 and 5 in the finals. Win two in a row in the next two years, and I'd have to hand him the "better than Jordan" and "better career than Jordan" trophies. Regarding Jordan's career, there was no Twitter, and whatever gambling issues he had were never made public. His persona was well managed by the NBA and by his agent. He was the Tiger Woods of his sport. He made everybody more money, so everybody took care of his image. It was not widespread knowledge that he called Will Purdue whatever. Nobody cared. As became clear later in his life, he was somewhat douchy and bitter. But the surprise at him being that way at the HOF induction tells you how well his true attitude was concealed. So what though? I could care less. He should have been money making. I'm just pointing it out, because Jordan was phony during his career, and lived for basketball and himself. LBJ doesn't phony it up to make more money, and he doesn't live for basketball.

He folded against Bird's Celtics when he scored 63?

The first round losses were early in his career against a loaded eastern conference. Celtics were in their prime, Hawks were loaded, Pistons were loaded, Bucks were strong, Sixers were tough with an older Dr J, Moses and a young Barkley. Took both of them some time and some good teammates to win their first. Jordan got Pippen, LBJ joined forces with Wade and Bosh. LBJ had an edge on MJ in the early years due to the 2007 run and for the ridiculous G5 against Detroit to get there which is an all time classic. His best game ever. But then he couldn't get through the Boston Three - same way MJ couldn't get through the Bad Boys for a little while.

MJ stepping away from the game is a bizarre twist. He had just averaged over 40 ppg on over 50 percent shooting in a six game series against the Suns. I'd say he wins seven in a row if he stays (figuring he'd be worn down by 1998 if he played the whole time) but maybe he needed the time away to refuel and would have worn down sooner. Olajuwon should send him a Christmas card every year for gifting him two titles.

 

[James]

The Blatt thing is so bizarre to me, it's weird that he hasn't gotten any credit for Cleveland's defense vaulting from mediocre to really good in what seemed like one night. I don't think Mike Brown gets that team to the finals.

Windhorst was on ESPN today talking about the relationship, and if his portrayal is at all accurate, it's pretty remarkable if there isn't a massive credibility deficit in the locker room - it has to be tough to coach that way, and I get the sense that Spo was under some of those same shackles his first year.

as i noted earlier, i tend to believe spo was taking orders from his boss, not his star player lebron. I think theres A LOT of insane lebron stories about what he and his camp have demanded ( takes a two week vacation to miami and nobody in cleveland bats a eyelash) this past season; its clear he wants to run the entire organization from top to bottom. Leverage includes his player option, and his two rings. i know they went to the finals and lost in 6, but lebron is the most uncoachable recent prime superstar i can recall...he is basically on some kobe petualnt ish before kobe grew up.

imagine one of the warriors straight up ignoring steve kerrs playcall or instructions, or just not giving him any eye contact the whole game lol. kerr wouldn't stand for that.

 

[tzznandrew]

No way. Jordan booted in 1st round in year 1. Jordan booted in round 1 in year 2. Jordan booted in round 1 in year 3. In year 4, Jordan picks up Pippen. Does not get booted in round 1. A few years later, with Pippen maturing to his top-50 form, they go to the finals and win. Very simple, very obvious. Jordan was great, and LBJ doesn't come close to matching his fire. But Jordan gets too much credit - without Pippen, he didn't make it out of the 1st round. When he had three years of bums to carry, he folded 3 times in the 1st round.

Regarding Jordan's career, there was no Twitter, and whatever gambling issues he had were never made public. His persona was well managed by the NBA and by his agent. He was the Tiger Woods of his sport. He made everybody more money, so everybody took care of his image. It was not widespread knowledge that he called Will Purdue whatever. Nobody cared. As became clear later in his life, he was somewhat douchy and bitter. But the surprise at him being that way at the HOF induction tells you how well his true attitude was concealed. So what though? I could care less. He should have been money making. I'm just pointing it out, because Jordan was phony during his career, and lived for basketball and himself. LBJ doesn't phony it up to make more money, and he doesn't live for basketball.

Jordan rookie season he led the Bulls to the playoffs and the 7 seed. The league was smaller, and so it was easier to get in, but he went into the playoffs with Orlando Woolridge as his second best player. Not a bad player overall, but the career that most matches Woolridge's was James Posey's.

His opponent? A 59-win Bucks team. Jordan averaged 29 ppg, 8.5 apg, and 6 rpg in the series, which they lost 3-1.

The next year, he broke his leg, came back, and still sent Game 2 into 2OT--against the 67-15 Celtics. His second year. He averaged 43-6-6.

The next year, they were in again, and he played the Celtics again... a 59 win team. No surprise, his scrubs lost again. He averaged 35-6-7.

So, over three playoff series Jordan averaged 35 ppg, 7 apg, and 6 rpg. Or, as you put it, he folded.

He finally got out of the first round in 1988. Yes, with Scottie Pippen, but with a Pippen that averaged 8 ppg for the season. Hardly someone they needed or relied on.

Or, Year 1, LeBron doesn't make playoffs.
Year 2, LeBron doesn't make playoffs.
Year 3, he wins a series (one season before Jordan) against a 42-win Wizards team.

People here seem to not want to look at context. You're holding losing against one of the 5-6 best teams of all time against Jordan.

 

[aceboon]

Look at all these facts, man

 

[Dogdeacon]

No way. Jordan booted in 1st round in year 1. Jordan booted in round 1 in year 2. Jordan booted in round 1 in year 3. In year 4, Jordan picks up Pippen. Does not get booted in round 1. A few years Win two in a row in the next two years, and I'd have to hand him the "better than Jordan" and "better career than Jordan" trophies.

Regarding Jordan's career, there was no Twitter, and whatever gambling issues he had were never made public. His persona was well managed by the NBA and by his agent. He was the Tiger Woods of his sport. He made everybody more money, so everybody took care of his image. It was not widespread knowledge that he called Will Purdue whatever. Nobody cared. As became clear later in his life, he was somewhat douchy and bitter. But the surprise at him being that way at the HOF induction tells you how well his true attitude was concealed. So what though? I could care less. He should have been money making. I'm just pointing it out, because Jordan was phony during his career, and lived for basketball and himself. LBJ doesn't phony it up to make more money, and he doesn't live for basketball.

First part
LeBron did make the finals with mediocre Cavs teammates, but remember KLove was with him for all of round 1 this year and Kyrie was with him thru and until game 1 of the finals (which they lost). So don't rewrite this year to be LeBron carrying the chumps that were left for games 2-6 into the finals cuz that's not what happened. I agree though that Jordan's standing comes more up for debate if LeBron continues to get to the finals. LeBron needs to do that I think 2+ more times and get some ships & signature shots along the way.
Part Deux
Twitter doesn't make media and Jordan was eons from Mickey Mantle when the press was complicit in covering up extracurriculars. And I don't think Jordan was phony, he just had a very carefully polished public persona. There was plenty of Jordan backlash during the 96 finals when Jordan dismissed accountability for Nike using child laborers and even more ongoing controversy when Jordan queried about not endorsing a AA democrat running in 1990 against Jesse Helms (NC longtime senator, at best obstructionist in reality racist) famously said 'republicans buy sneakers too'. The latter was never actually uttered in public by Jordan - but I only know this by googling it just now as it was (90's) and IS part of the Jordan lore that he said 'republicans buy sneakers too'. I think you do care in that you call Jordan 'douchey' and bitter as a neutral stance might label him over-competitive. I think that's sugarcoating it, but I simply value more what they do on the court while I'm watching. The fact that Jordan was motivated by perceived slights and enjoyed beating everyone often towards humiliation is interesting, but I don't think relevant to his standing as the greatest basketball player ever.

Almost all of Jordan's former teammates speak of his competitiveness in appreciative and reverential ways and acknowledge it helping either them or the team. Similarly but in a different way LeBron is a better team facilitator (assists) and everyone who plays with him has spoken highly of it to this point (and again similarly who is going to say it sucked playing with one of the best ever particularly when that player is active?!).

 

[tzznandrew]

One other thing: over the course of his career, MJ's playoff opponents averaged 53.4 wins per year; LeBron's (pro-rated) 50.5.

 

[UConn990411]

Swap Dwyane Wade with anyone else in the NBA and Lebron still doesn't have a single ring.

That's as foolish as anyone trying to claim LeBron is better than Jordan.

Wade was a shell the on Miami's last title team, and LeBron carried the team to the 2011-12 title, too. It's a complete myth that Wade ever carried those Heat teams after the 2011 playoffs.

 

[superjohn]

That's as foolish as anyone trying to claim LeBron is better than Jordan.

Wade was a shell the on Miami's last title team, and LeBron carried the team to the 2011-12 title, too. It's a complete myth that Wade ever carried those Heat teams after the 2011 playoffs.

I was responding to a poster saying Jordan never would have won a championship without Pippen, so I pointed out the obvious that Lebron wouldn't have a championship without Wade. Dwyane Wade already carried Miami to a championship on his own and was happy to play second fiddle to Lebron. Don't put word in my mouth and tell me I said Wade carried Lebron to a title.

 

[Gurleyman]

I was responding to a poster saying Jordan never would have won a championship without Pippen, so I pointed out the obvious that Lebron wouldn't have a championship without Wade. Dwyane Wade already carried Miami to a championship on his own and was happy to play second fiddle to Lebron. Don't put word in my mouth and tell me I said Wade carried Lebron to a title.

Wade also averaged 22 ppg in the Thunder series and 20 ppg in the Spurs series they won. He was about 5-6 ppg behind LBJ both times. I don't think anyone has ever said that Wade carried the Heat to any titles (except 2006, of course). He was just playing a quality Robin in both of them. He had 23 and 10 in the G7 win. If we are comparing the two situations, you can't say that Jordan needed Pippen's 8 points to close out the Jazz, while LBJ got no help from Wade.

Wade was definitely a shell in 2014 - matching Pippen in 1998. Both averaged about 15 ppg in the series. But the Heat lost that one.