OT: Mizzou black football players taking a stand

[superjohn]

I made a clear distinction in this discussion, that the issue of somebody actually smearing on the floor, walls - is a problem independent of what they actually depicted in . That's how my mind works. I break things down, and work from there to build things up.

In this singular instance (and still I have read nothing about this situation - other than what's in this 6 page message board thread - without opening any links), it could have been abstract art, it could have been no pattern at all, it could have been some kind of linear algebra matrix equation that describes the meaning of life - (ala Good Will Hunting). It's still somebody smearing on the wall, and that is a situation that should have been handled much differently - than it apparently has been handled.

My opinion, my thesis if you will, is that by attending to simple basic matters appropriately, you often build the foundation of handling complex matters effectively, and everything about this situation screams bad leadership to me. No surprise that there are racial issues dividing a campus, if somebody can smear on a wall and not be found and punished accordingly. My opinion.

As for the swastika discussion, it's inevitable in some circles, that any discussion will degenerate into a discussion of Nazi's. There's even a named rule about it.

My position, remains unchanged, that the time when the symbol by itself was truly frightening, has long passed. I concede that there are places in the world, where that may not be true anymore, but my opinion is that a university campus in the USA is not one of them. To me, the use of such a symbol in such a setting is a sign of weakness, ignorance, and generates disgust from me - not fear.

That an would draw a swastika somewhere in paint, or blood, or , with the intent to create fear or intimidate? Obviously.

The questions are two: #1. Do you let it intimidate you? and #2. What do you do about it?

I think the campus environment in Missouri has had enough of what is not an isolated incident, and is not going to let the students be intimidated, and what they've done about it, is appeal for accountability - and the result they got is the resignation of the university president.

Here's a newsflash - in case anyone missed it. The pres resigning isn't necessarily going to change anything with regards to racism tension and problems on the campus, and to the accountability for whoever drew a swastika in .

What the school does from here, as a community - student body and administration/faculty together is pretty important.

Here's another opinion from me - if that list of demands is true and accurate - there is language in there, that doesn't help to make things better.

This idea that symbols and their symbolism is long since passed is ludicrous. Just because Jews aren't being gassed anymore doesn't mean there isn't going to be fear if someone paints a swastika on a Jewish persons front door, they aren't hanging blacks from trees anymore but if someone hangs a noose from a black families oak tree in their front yard it is an act to let them know they are unsafe and not welcome.

 

[Jax Husky]

Some of the protesters' requests appear relatively reasonable and possibly achievable within workable timelines, but it's a reach to absolutely expect the Mizzou system to agree with some of their List of Demands or for such demands to magically change or quickly enhance current societal views. For example, adding or enhancing cultural awareness classes may sound attractive. Good luck mandating all students absolutely must participate. Or, to change the racist upbringing, views, or actions of some people of all colors, ethnic backgrounds, etc. (students, staff, and faculty).

Additionally, "... II. We demand ... a new amendment to UM system policies must be established to have all future UM system president and Chancellor positions be selected by a collective of students, staff, and faculty of diverse backgrounds." Perhaps some input on potential candidates or general suggestions on possible backgrounds and experience may be reasonable and workable, but demanding students, staff, and faculty select all future system presidents and campus chancellors (?). Yup, that'll happen.

I agree that much of what they are looking for is not only reasonable, but logical and necessary. The other stuff they want makes it hard to take them seriously though.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Well Carl, since you've raised some provocative points you at least deserve a serious response.
The reason you haven't read anything about the Missouri situation is the same one I have. There wasn't one media outlet I listened to last week that even mentiond the tensions at Mizzou. It wasn't until the football team reacted, showing the power and leverage of big time athletics, that the nation took notice. I actually agree with you that there was a greater chance of reform had the President stayed--and acted, with his feet firmly held to a white hot fire. But he resigned amid lots of dancing in the streets. Let's see whether his absence leads to the kind of reforms wished for.
As for the swastika, all I can say is fear (like beauty) is in the eye of the beholder. Yesterday, Nov 9th was the anniversary of Kristallnacht, the night of broken glass. In 1938, my then 14 year old mother-in-law's home in Nuremberg was forcibly entered by black shirted Nazis who terrorized, smashed every dish and goblet and searched for any men to drag out and shoot. Even now, at age 91 and living comfortably in Peabody MA, I would think the frightening nature of a swastika may not have "long passed" for her. But whether it's a swastika, a confederate flag or any other symbolically displayed epithet that gives rise to heated or chilling emotion, maybe we shouldn't be so quick to assume the degree of lingering effect those hate symbols still have on others.

I'm not taking the time to go back through every word I"ve typed, but I'm pretty sure that I conveyed that the time when the symbol (a swastika) truly represented something to be feared - has long passed. At least that's what I tried to convey. I'm not perfect. THe chances of a group of black shirted Nazi's wearing swastikas and invading somebody's home in 2015, and dragging them in the street and killing them is pretty slim these days, nor is the swastika currently danger to anyone on the east coast - unless you're an unprepared and foolish ocean diver. A bunch of bigots that have latched onto the swastika in an attempt to induce fear and intimidation? Not the same as the third reich in my book. I'm not going to get into any more detail than I have before on this website, but I also have a personal family connection to people that lived through the Third Reich, and were subject to horrifying things. I know about Kristalnacht through personal stories as well.

I'm pretty sure I didn't write that it's a symbol that has no meaning whatsoever, and I'm pretty sure I did write somewhere relatively clearly, that anyone using it in a manner that isn't clearly meant for productive education learn from history kind of thing, is obviously trying to induce fear and intimidation. That it would clearly affect someone like your MIL with a fear response is also natural.

The question(s) I posed - are #1. Do you let it intimidate you and strike fear? #2. What do you do about it.? (and these aren't questions that are restricted to a swastika)

As for Missouri - I've put way more time and thought into this than I ever intended. They got a community problem down there, that needs quality leadership that can bring everybody together. That's it.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Other universities have such mandatory classes.

Of course, sugar coating and painting lipstick on institutional pigs exists in many diverse ways in universities, corporations, hospitals, non-profits, and in other organizations. That's not a suggestion offering diversity seminars, discussions, etc. is necessarily a bad idea, but mandating participation may not only be unenforceable it may not help. Meanwhile, on campuses across the country ...

Hey Jorge, Kelly, Mohammad, Wangster, ya wanna go to Ted's? (or, Eskimos, The Plaza, Mahoney's, Airliner, Pavlov's, etc.)
Nah, PC RA told us we absolutely must participate in some mandatory %$&#@ diversity class
Ah, screw that ... let's go ...
Uh yeah, bring us a couple pitchers of PBRs

 

[Carl Spackler]

This idea that symbols and their symbolism is long since passed is ludicrous. Just because Jews aren't being gassed anymore doesn't mean there isn't going to be fear if someone paints a swastika on a Jewish persons front door, they aren't hanging blacks from trees anymore but if someone hangs a noose from a black families oak tree in their front yard it is an act to let them know they are unsafe and not welcome.

I've clearly done a poor job of conveying my thoughts in writing.

Different tactic. LEt's look at the flag of ISIS. If somebody puts that fekking symbol up on something around me - I've got a reason to have a healthy fear response, because the only people using that symbol are dangerous POS's.

If some dimwit puts a swastika on their forehead (ok - bad example) but if somebody decides to put up a swastika flag on their front porch? Or paints it on a school wall? That's not going to do anything but piss me off and disgust. Fear isn't a response for me, that the symbol generates, it's nothing more than raising a flag and saying, "I don't like you just because you're different than me."

My point in saying the reason for it being something to be really scared of is long past, is because the people that used it, and there were hundreds of thousands of them - like today's black flag wavers - that are really dangerous, are all dead and gone, or so old, that they're not much danger to anything.

Others are correct - fear is in the eye the beholder - and my mistake I suppose, is generalizing. I wrote somewhere also that we all have to be careful of it. Just because something doesn't frighten me, doesn't mean it wouldn't frighten somebody else, and I'm wrong in suggesting otherwise - although it was not my intent to do so - my intent was to convery that the swastika was the flag of the German war machine - the third reich - and that was something to be scared of - not racial bigots.

 

[superjohn]

I'm not taking the time to go back through every word I"ve typed, but I'm pretty sure that I conveyed that the time when the symbol (a swastika) truly represented something to be feared - has long passed. At least that's what I tried to convey. I'm not perfect. THe chances of a group of black shirted Nazi's wearing swastikas and invading somebody's home in 2015, and dragging them in the street and killing them is pretty slim these days, nor is the swastika currently danger to anyone on the east coast - unless you're an unprepared and foolish ocean diver. A bunch of bigots that have latched onto the swastika in an attempt to induce fear and intimidation? Not the same as the third reich in my book. I'm not going to get into any more detail than I have before on this website, but I also have a personal family connection to people that lived through the Third Reich, and were subject to horrifying things. I know about Kristalnacht through personal stories as well.

I'm pretty sure I didn't write that it's a symbol that has no meaning whatsoever, and I'm pretty sure I did write somewhere relatively clearly, that anyone using it in a manner that isn't clearly meant for productive education learn from history kind of thing, is obviously trying to induce fear and intimidation. That it would clearly affect someone like your MIL with a fear response is also natural.

The question(s) I posed - are #1. Do you let it intimidate you and strike fear? #2. What do you do about it.? (and these aren't questions that are restricted to a swastika)

As for Missouri - I've put way more time and thought into this than I ever intended. They got a community problem down there, that needs quality leadership that can bring everybody together. That's it.

Of course bigots wearing swastikas today isn't in any way comparable to the Third Reich, nobody said that, so there is no need for non sequiturs. We still have many homegrown hate groups and many of these domestic terrorists love Nazi symbolism. I know this isn't the place for it but over on the cesspool you constantly talk about the fear of Muslim terrorists attacking Americans on US soil. They want to strike fear on the American population just like the domestic terrorists do and despite what many believe the domestic terrorists have been the bigger threat since 911.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Of course bigots wearing swastikas today isn't in any way comparable to the Third Reich, nobody said that, so there is no need for non sequiturs. We still have many homegrown hate groups and many of these domestic terrorists love Nazi symbolism. I know this isn't the place for it but over on the cesspool you constantly talk about the fear of Muslim terrorists attacking Americans on US soil. They want to strike fear on the American population just like the domestic terrorists do and despite what many believe the domestic terrorists have been the bigger threat since 911.

We're going to differ on some things. That's ok. Until an organized movement arises that wears the Swastika as it's brand, and is really dangerous - it's nothing more than what you exactly describe - a symbolism thread for bigotry. I submit, that people allowing symbolism of such a nature to influence them in a negative fashion, does nothing except do exactly what whoever would use such symbolism wants - and that is intimidation and fear and hatred. For me - the actual symbol itself? Irrelevant. It's unhealthy fear response, weakness, that people that would use such symbols in such way, want- and I'm of the opinion, tha tthy'er not going to get it from me, and I'd loke for as many other people to feel the same way. Don't empower ---kers by acknowledging anything.

For me - a symbol that becomes a true threat assessment, something to induce a healthy fear response - is much different, and the swastika doesn't qualify. Would my antennae ramp up a bit if somebody walks into a room with a swastika arm band on? Sure - but it's not going to be a fear response from me.

My mistake in this entire discussion, is two fold, it's taking a level of things into a discussion forum that's not really about it - this is a football place, and second - failing to observe the basic reality that my view, isn't going to be everybody's view when it comes to certain aspect of human behavior. I fully acknowledge it. I'm wrong, about what I've already stated. It's a mistake for me to think that other people are going to respond the same way to things that I do, regardless of any words or actions I can engage with.

I don't think a swastika is anything to be afraid of, and I'm wrong to think others wouldn't have a fear response from it.

(I'm just prone to getting into that position in pretty intense subject matter)

Do I need to write another mea culpa or will this suffice to the boneyard etiquette?

 

[upstater]

Of course, sugar coating and painting lipstick on institutional pigs exists in many diverse ways in universities, corporations, hospitals, non-profits, and in other organizations. That's not a suggestion offering diversity seminars, discussions, etc. is necessarily a bad idea, but mandating participation may not only be unenforceable it may not help. Meanwhile, on campuses across the country ...

Hey Jorge, Kelly, Mohammad, Wangster, ya wanna go to Ted's? (or, Eskimos, The Plaza, Mahoney's, Airliner, Pavlov's, etc.)
Nah, PC RA told us we absolutely must participate in some mandatory %$&#@ diversity class
Ah, screw that ... let's go ...
Uh yeah, bring us a couple pitchers of PBRs

So you're saying they lack enforcement techniques? Trust me, they don't.

And to say this is all hogwash is crazy given the value of such classes.

 

[huskymedic]

University of Missouri president Tim Wolfe has resigned as president.
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/n...cle_ed75afb0-86fb-11e5-9e17-df8eb9362f14.html

CoMissourian5:30pm via TweetDeck
Chancellor Loftin is transitioning from role of chancellor at the end of the year to new role within the university system.
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/n...cle_41644c0a-8731-11e5-be41-5754104c4116.html

EmVand5:40pm via Twitter Web Client
Announcement: A first ever chief diversity, inclusion and equity officer will be appointed for the UM System @CoMissourian

 

[Rocktheworld]

Spackler gonna Spackle

 

[Carl Spackler]

I'll probably catch flak for this, but I think that a place like the University of Missouri is on a dangerous path. Something clearly need to change, and there are problems - but was this the best course? was it the only course? I don't know.

Regardless of what current issues may be, and what the specific circumstances may be of any situation that leads to leadership resigning - the phrase "inmates running the asylum" doesn't inspire faith that there will be a good outcome. Just because the leadership is resigning, doesn't mean things are going to change for the better. I read the list of demands and that strikes me as something that's not well though out.

Too many people these days, initiating action, without thinking about consequences, and I'm generalizing again - with that comment, but it certainly seems that whoever wrote that list of demands, if accurate, is getting what they want - for the short term at least.

have a good day all.

 

[huskypantz]

I took a quick look at the state diversity stats for MO. 80% white - wow. CT is 68%. Faculty ethnic distribution pretty much matches students except for black and asians - asians are 2% of students but 16.67% of faculty. Blacks 7% of students and 3.25% of faculty. The % of full-time staff matches the student body. It seems like the state in general is just not diverse.

https://diversity.missouri.edu/about/stats/

 

[Nostical]

It will be interesting to see if the Mizzou experience now serves as a template for any university where students, especially minority students, feel disaffected and marginalized without, in their view, appropriate redress by the administration. All you need is a leader with a megaphone who can galvanize support from the football team, willing to forfeit games. Heads would be rolling in all those ivory towers. The only difference is that just like in conference affiliation, only those institutions where football or basketball really matters will be able to leverage the opinions of the athletes.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

So you're saying they lack enforcement techniques? Trust me, they don't. And to say this is all hogwash is crazy given the value of such classes.

After stating diversity seminars, discussions, etc. are not necessarily a bad idea, somehow it was misinterpreted as such classes are "hogwash". Whether diversity class speakers, teachers, discussion leaders, etc. are any good or the very real possibility some schools, companies, institutions, etc. use them as sugar coating are key considerations, but a hogwash topic? Nope, neither stated nor implied. Sticking with what was actually stated, I suggested it mandating attendance at some schools may or may not be beneficial.

The further away from the northeast, the west coast, big urban education centers, etc., I suspect there may be less inclination to force attendance. Perhaps that's way off the mark, and (1) mandated attendance actually exists more broadly nationally in academia than expected, or (2) the potential benefits are believed to exceed or are somehow proven to surpass possible negatives, e.g., relatively open minded, and especially racist students, do not shut down or just crash during well intended training/classes.

Noting you work in academia, I'm confident some people actually view mandated participation as enforceable and penalties may somehow be imposed. Whether that back fires, e.g., fails to help broaden the minds of those who could benefit the most, is a reasonable consideration. At schools mandating attendance, how is it typically enforced? No enrollment? No housing? No grades, transcripts, etc.?

 

[Pudge]

It will be interesting to see if the Mizzou experience now serves as a template for any university where students, especially minority students, feel disaffected and marginalized without, in their view, appropriate redress by the administration. All you need is a leader with a megaphone who can galvanize support from the football team, willing to forfeit games. Heads would be rolling in all those ivory towers. The only difference is that just like in conference affiliation, only those institutions where football or basketball really matters will be able to leverage the opinions of the athletes.

Don't forget the hunger strike!!!

We all need Bobby Sands.

Fact is ... this is a Watershed moment for College Sports and what the NCAA feared. I, however, find this as Black athletes - the subservient money makers - finding their power. To Spackler: this is not bad for Mizzou. This is showing ... with Sam two years ago ... that we have a new generation. KUDOS for Gary Pinkel. We know not where this will take us. But, the fact that the athletes can step up ... tells me that the UNC fraud classes can also be addressed by the Black Athletes that are getting screwed.

 

[upstater]

After stating diversity seminars, discussions, etc. are not necessarily a bad idea, somehow it was misinterpreted as such classes are "hogwash".

I was just playing off your "pig" metaphor. That's why I wrote hogwash.

The mandatory diversity training for students comes in the form of 1 credit requirement toward graduation. No attendance at the class? No diploma. For faculty, they have other measures that compel attendance. You can't get around it, nor would you really press it.

 

[HuskiesFan1014]

Anybody who gets to this point and has read all 7 pages of this deserves a helmet sticker.

If this discussion happened in the early days of AOL, we'd all be done with our 56 free hours of internet. (Mostly due to Spackler. )

Must be a bye week.

Kudos to all who have shared their viewpoints, because despite the fact that topics like racism, sexism, politics and the like are so likely to reveal the otherwise invisible differences between all of us, it hasn't gotten anywhere near as ugly as I thought it would when I saw the OP.

There is some serious intelligence here in the Boneyard. I'm usually amazed at the depth of football knowledge that some of you have. I'm just a rabid fan who played mostly Pop Warner ball and rode the bench a bit in high school, and I appreciate the insight I get and have learned a ton from all of you (well, most of you.)

Today I see another side of the collective intellect that exists in this place. So much more than football, this Boneyard.

Now let's get back to football. Please!

 

[upstater]

It will be interesting to see if the Mizzou experience now serves as a template for any university where students, especially minority students, feel disaffected and marginalized without, in their view, appropriate redress by the administration. All you need is a leader with a megaphone who can galvanize support from the football team, willing to forfeit games. Heads would be rolling in all those ivory towers. The only difference is that just like in conference affiliation, only those institutions where football or basketball really matters will be able to leverage the opinions of the athletes.

What happened in Missouri is actually very common. Oklahoma St had a similar set of circumstances just this year. U Buffalo had an incident that made national news and the New York Times. In many cases, student advocate groups call for resignations. But the power here to refuse to hold football games seems to really really matter in Missouri. So that's a difference. This couldn't work in many places. Wouldn't work at Maryland, Pitt, UConn, Penn State, Michigan, and Pac-10 schools. Many ACC schools too.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

I was just playing off your "pig" metaphor. That's why I wrote hogwash.

The mandatory diversity training for students comes in the form of 1 credit requirement toward graduation. No attendance at the class? No diploma. For faculty, they have other measures that compel attendance. You can't get around it, nor would you really press it.

Thanks for clarifying how some schools enforce participation. Got it, hogwash as in schools, companies, other institutions, slapping lipstick on their pig (cultural relations), e.g., very likely too many of the mandated 1 credit, sugar coating classes required for graduation versus more substantive education, discussions, etc.

Many corporate HR departments run employees through occasional, too often simply check the box off, diversity training. Whether such programs are effective likely varies tremendously for different people and with trainers, educators, managers, etc of varied experience levels, online courses of widely disparate quality, etc. Whether any truly beneficial influence exists with students or employees force fed or mandated to attend, especially less open minded people to clear racists, is dubious IMHO.

As an academic, any thoughts on differences at universities and colleges by region? Public v Private? Small v big? Again, your insight is appreciated.

 

[UconnU]

Lets be honest multiculturalism has failed.

 

[huskymedic]

Confused yet?

Missouri Communications Professor Yelled for Muscle to Expel Media, Days After Begging for Coverage

 

[upstater]

Thanks for clarifying how some schools enforce participation. Got it, hogwash as in schools, companies, other institutions, slapping lipstick on their pig (cultural relations), e.g., very likely too many of the mandated 1 credit, sugar coating classes required for graduation versus more substantive education, discussions, etc.

Many corporate HR departments run employees through occasional, too often simply check the box off, diversity training. Whether such programs are effective likely varies tremendously for different people and with trainers, educators, managers, etc of varied experience levels, online courses of widely disparate quality, etc. Whether any truly beneficial influence exists with students or employees force fed or mandated to attend, especially less open minded people to clear racists, is dubious IMHO.

As an academic, any thoughts on differences at universities and colleges by region? Public v Private? Small v big? Again, your insight is appreciated.

I disagree that the course is sugar-coated or however you describe it. In fact, the course is depressing in the sense that many people take it and see the light of day, which shows the kind of cocoons we all live in. Last year, the National Book Award winner, a book called Citizen, was a revelation for many but all it did was give anecdotes of the day to day encounters of a black woman and her sheer exhaustion at it all. The fact that these experiences are revelatory for even educated white people says a lot about the state of race relations, and in that sense such classes become necessary

 

[upstater]

Lets be honest multiculturalism has failed.

You realize the President was born in Kenya and attended madrassas in Indonesia, don't you? I'd call that a multicultural success.

 

[LRock34]

upstater:

Missouri does have diversity training/classes: https://diversity.missouri.edu/learn/training/

The group just wants to define what this training is themselves.

Reading this thread there is not a single person who could benefit from diversity training more than you. The friggin arrogance of some people.... Ugh

 

[LRock34]

They want a lot more than mandatory training. They also want people to hand write letters admitting to things they may or may not be guilty of (having white privilege), and arbitrarily increasing the amount of Blacks hired.

There is a very simple reason that the list was absurd. They wanted him gone! They demanded things that he would never do because he needed to be fired or resign. Why? Because he ignored issues of racism on campus for at least 2 years! Issues that have been a problem for 50+ years! If you took a moment to look beyond your own ignorance you MIGHT understand this.

I hate when things like this happen because it always shows me just how insensitive people (particularly SOME white Americans) are. The audacity to even have an opinion on how minorities should react to racism.... SMFH.