OT: Mizzou black football players taking a stand

[Carl Spackler]

What a bizarre response.

It's Bruce Springsteen thing. LOL. The dude was right, in one thing he wrote to me, because I was born in the USA after WW2. I never experienced life in the Third Reich in Germany, or German occupied territory in WW2, so I don't have any direct experience with what people that wore the symbol then and there. Doesn't mean I can't have any real understanding of it, and for that matter, doesn't mean that I've never actually dealt with a real Third Reich Nazi BTW.

Let me put it this way - and you can believe me or not, I don't care. I don't think anyone CAN"T know what the white hood, and KKK symbols mean, because they might not be black or have direct experience, and may not have grown up in the south, when things like lynchings were normal and expected. I wouldn't assume that somebody that says they know what symbols of lynching mean, would be wrong to say they know what it means, because they didn't grow up in the south and see somebody get hung.

My responses to this situation, should the idiot have written KKK in instead of drawing a swastika would be no different.

YOu guys are making me feel like Pacino in godfather 3. Keep drawing me back in.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

All I said is that the time when the swastika symbol really meant something terrible is long over.

Unfortunately, this is factually untrue in some countries. perhaps, but Neo Nazis and their quiet supporters in more than several countries continue to whip out swastiskas to symbolize their ignorance. Yup, I've seen it face-to-face in recent years including in multiple countries Hitler and the Nazis attempted to destroy.

Whether people agree or not with legitimate Syrian refugees, or with other migrants entering Europe from across the Middle East, Africa, the Caucausas, and Central, South, and East Asia alike, have no doubt openly racist Neo Nazis and less publicly open racist Europeans currently are and will rally 'round their still terrible symbol.

 

[Jax Husky]

I said this once, I'll say it again: the group's demands were about highly specific policy changes such as required diversity training. The requests were made in 2014. By late 2015, this Pres. hadn't budged an inch.

While demanding his resignation seems extreme, you have to wonder why this guy sat on his butt on stuff that long preceded Michael Brown.

Fair enough; however, I'd add that Diversity Training (I assume for the staff only anyway) would not have done a thing to stop the Swastika, nor the off-campus racial slur.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Call me crazy, but isn't it fairly easy to get some DNA or other biometric data from dookie?

Sure, and it might help address an issue a company HR department could not alone. However, what's your guess on the possibility the particular company might have opted to handle its' crap in house. With law enforcement involvement, perhaps.

 

[Jax Husky]

upstater:

Missouri does have diversity training/classes: https://diversity.missouri.edu/learn/training/

The group just wants to define what this training is themselves.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Unfortunately, this is factually untrue in some countries. perhaps, but Neo Nazis and their quiet supporters in more than several countries continue to whip out swastiskas to symbolize their ignorance. Yup, I've seen it face-to-face in recent years including in multiple countries Hitler and the Nazis attempted to destroy.

Whether people agree or not with legitimate Syrian refugees, or with other migrants entering Europe from across the Middle East, Africa, the Caucausas, and Central, South, and East Asia alike, have no doubt openly racist Neo Nazis and less publicly open racist Europeans currently are and will rally 'round their still terrible symbol.

THis is definitely cesspool discussion material again, but I concede, it's a real problem globally - in many places. Absolutely - if you concede that a place like a state university campus in the U.S.A, even in place like Missouri, is not a high probability place for real neo-Nazi movement. FWIW: I've had very, very interesting couple of months, since the summer, and I've written elsewhere on this website, that the last thing this world needs moving forward, is for another militant, national progressive and fiercely racial, German culture to arise - and the current world events - in many, many factors? The signs are not good.

The last thing this world needs is another German war machine driven by racial and cultural bigotry, and this is not the first time I've typed those words any time recently.

 

[junglehusky]

Obviously whoever made that swastika was intentionally appropriating the power of that symbol in order to use it to strike fear into the target audience. As Ed Norton's character in American history X summarized (in a flashback before that character grew and renounced his association with nazism) - "You see this? This means - Not. Welcome." Whether the symbol means there is a neo-nazi movement on UM's campus is not the main point. The question is - did leadership do enough to at least try to have a safe atmosphere without intimidation, while balancing with free speech. Not easy, but this guy didn't do enough.

It would be nice if the symbol lost all its power after WWII but that's not quite how things work.

 

[Jax Husky]

List of Demands
I. We demand that the University of Missouri System
President, Tim Wolfe, writes a handwritten
apology to the Concerned Student 1950 demonstrat
ors and holds a press conference in the
Mizzou Student Center reading the letter. In the le
tter and at the press conference, Tim Wolfe
must acknowledge his white male privilege, recogniz
e that systems of oppression exist, and
provide a verbal commitment to fulfilling Concerned
Student 1950 demands. We want Tim
Wolfe to admit to his gross negligence, allowing hi
s driver to hit one of the demonstrators,
consenting to the physical violence of bystanders,
and lastly refusing to intervene when
Columbia Police Department used excessive force wit
h demonstrators.
II. We demand the immediate removal of Tim Wolfe as
UM system president. After his removal
a new amendment to UM system policies must be estab
lished to have all future UM system
president and Chancellor positions be selected by a
collective of students, staff, and faculty of
diverse backgrounds.
III. We demand that the University of Missouri meet
s the Legion of Black Collegians' demands
that were presented in 1969 for the betterment of t
he black community.
IV. We demand that the University of Missouri creat
es and enforces comprehensive racial
awareness and inclusion curriculum throughout all c
ampus departments and units, mandatory
for all students, faculty, staff, and administratio
n. This curriculum must be vetted, maintained,
and overseen by a board comprised of students, staf
f, and faculty of color.
V. We demand that by the academic year 20172018, t
he University of Missouri increases the
percentage of black faculty and staff campuswide t
o 10%.
VI. We demand that the University of Missouri compo
ses a strategic 10 year plan by May 1,
2016 that will increase retention rates for margina
lized students, sustain diversity curriculum and
training, and promote a more safe and inclusive cam
pus.
VII. We demand that the University of Missouri incr
eases funding and resources for the
University of Missouri Counseling Center for the pu
rpose of hiring additional mental health
professionals; particularly those of color, boostin
g mental health outreach and programming
across campus, increasing campuswide awareness and
visibility of the counseling center, and
reducing lengthy wait times for prospective clients
.
VIII. We demand that the University of Missouri inc
reases funding, resources, and personnel for
the social justices centers on campus for the purpo
se of hiring additional professionals,
particularly those of color, boosting outreach and
programming across campus, and increasing
campuswide awareness and visibility.

 

[HobokenHusky]

Feel like this thread needs an interjection from PC bro:

Better check your privilege at the door bro!

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

When the University of Missouri System, including a state health care system, 10 R&D technology parks, an extension program, and 4 universities (Columbia, KC, Rolla, and St. Louis), replaces the now ex-system wide president, Tim Wolfe, maybe the next president comes with more direct academic experience. Not that it's any guarantee of success overseeing the chancellors leading each campus, the 4 separate campuses, and other entities, but even before Wolfe arrived "The editorial board of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch criticized the University of Missouri's Board of Curators for hiring someone with no professional experience in educational settings who needed a two-month "journey of enlightenment" to learn about each of the four campuses' needs."

In the Wikipedia site, someone already jumped in to change Wolfe's Occupation to "Unemployed". Not wasting any time there, but the Board of Curators for the University of Missouri System may hold some responsibility for initially hiring a good salesman and corporate executive as chief fundraiser yet a person with minimal experience directly leading an academic institution. Wolfe's "... appointment marked the second consecutive time that a businessman rather than (an) educator became (the University of Missouri System) president (Forsee was CEO of Sprint)."

 

[Stinger92860]

I am an old white guy who grew up in the hollow section of Bridgeport, just north of downtown. Racism exists everywhere in the world where their are different cultures. In some places it's worse than others. To say I don't get it because I am an old white guy is stupid. People are racist because that's who they are or who they chose to be. It could be due to family, culture or poor parenting. The color of your skin does nor determine if you are a racist, it's your character.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Obviously whoever made that swastika was intentionally appropriating the power of that symbol in order to use it to strike fear into the target audience. As Ed Norton's character in American history X summarized (in a flashback before that character grew and renounced his association with nazism) - "You see this? This means - Not. Welcome." Whether the symbol means there is a neo-nazi movement on UM's campus is not the main point. The question is - did leadership do enough to at least try to have a safe atmosphere without intimidation, while balancing with free speech. Not easy, but this guy didn't do enough.

It would be nice if the symbol lost all its power after WWII but that's not quite how things work.

I made a clear distinction in this discussion, that the issue of somebody actually smearing on the floor, walls - is a problem independent of what they actually depicted in . That's how my mind works. I break things down, and work from there to build things up.

In this singular instance (and still I have read nothing about this situation - other than what's in this 6 page message board thread - without opening any links), it could have been abstract art, it could have been no pattern at all, it could have been some kind of linear algebra matrix equation that describes the meaning of life - (ala Good Will Hunting). It's still somebody smearing on the wall, and that is a situation that should have been handled much differently - than it apparently has been handled.

My opinion, my thesis if you will, is that by attending to simple basic matters appropriately, you often build the foundation of handling complex matters effectively, and everything about this situation screams bad leadership to me. No surprise that there are racial issues dividing a campus, if somebody can smear on a wall and not be found and punished accordingly. My opinion.

As for the swastika discussion, it's inevitable in some circles, that any discussion will degenerate into a discussion of Nazi's. There's even a named rule about it.

My position, remains unchanged, that the time when the symbol by itself was truly frightening, has long passed. I concede that there are places in the world, where that may not be true anymore, but my opinion is that a university campus in the USA is not one of them. To me, the use of such a symbol in such a setting is a sign of weakness, ignorance, and generates disgust from me - not fear.

That an would draw a swastika somewhere in paint, or blood, or , with the intent to create fear or intimidate? Obviously.

The questions are two: #1. Do you let it intimidate you? and #2. What do you do about it?

I think the campus environment in Missouri has had enough of what is not an isolated incident, and is not going to let the students be intimidated, and what they've done about it, is appeal for accountability - and the result they got is the resignation of the university president.

Here's a newsflash - in case anyone missed it. The pres resigning isn't necessarily going to change anything with regards to racism tension and problems on the campus, and to the accountability for whoever drew a swastika in .

What the school does from here, as a community - student body and administration/faculty together is pretty important.

Here's another opinion from me - if that list of demands is true and accurate - there is language in there, that doesn't help to make things better.

 

[upstater]

Fair enough; however, I'd add that Diversity Training (I assume for the staff only anyway) would not have done a thing to stop the Swastika, nor the off-campus racial slur.

It's the little day-to-say stuff that matters. Heck, even the president's press release this morning prior to the resignation was tone deaf ("We will take into account the position of all sides"--huh? The racists and the anti-racists? What sides are we talking about?).

It's diversity training for students, staff, faculty--by the way. And believe it or not, we all need it. You'd be surprised at the relatively everyday stuff that even faculty get wrong. It is highly insulting to both black and white people that we need diversity training. Highly insulting to white people in the sense that we feel we are mature and worldly enough to negotiate this on a personal level, and insulting to black people who are like, "WTF is wrong with you that we've had to go to this extent to get you to realize you are constantly slighting us?"

But there we are. We need to do it.

 

[upstater]

upstater:

Missouri does have diversity training/classes: https://diversity.missouri.edu/learn/training/

The group just wants to define what this training is themselves.

They want mandatory training

 

[upstater]

I am an old white guy who grew up in the hollow section of Bridgeport, just north of downtown. Racism exists everywhere in the world where their are different cultures. In some places it's worse than others. To say I don't get it because I am an old white guy is stupid. People are racist because that's who they are or who they chose to be. It could be due to family, culture or poor parenting. The color of your skin does nor determine if you are a racist, it's your character.

The use of the word racism in a university setting simply means something else. As it's defined in the university, racism is about institutional power structures rather than people's poor character. If you want a high-profile example, look at Serena Williams and the institutions running international tennis. This is what would be defined as racist--rather than any individual's own biases. In fact, the run-ins that Serena has had have been with women of color (Korean and Latin American).

 

[SAMCRO]

So this is why I only visited the cesspool once. My apologies to all for posting this on the football board.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

It's really too bad that we can't have an open and honest discussion about this without subtle and not so subtle accusations being thrown around. Time for another extended BY break.

 

[junglehusky]

It's one thing to say "don't let it intimidate you". Or even to say to yourself "I'm not going to let this intimidate me". Very easy. To get to a place where it doesn't affect you, or you can deal with it, is not as easy. Particularly if you live in a community where these acts and attitudes are not rare. Some people who aren't the target of intimidation may think "don't be intimidated" is a reasonable, easy thing to do, because of their privileged position of not having to experience the intimidation and inherent threats contained in these symbols.

 

[junglehusky]

The use of the word racism in a university setting simply means something else. As it's defined in the university, racism is about institutional power structures rather than people's poor character. If you want a high-profile example, look at Serena Williams and the institutions running international tennis. This is what would be defined as racist--rather than any individual's own biases. In fact, the run-ins that Serena has had have been with women of color (Korean and Latin American).

Sometimes I think we need another term for structural racism just because of the defensiveness it elicits.

 

[Jax Husky]

They want mandatory training

They want a lot more than mandatory training. They also want people to hand write letters admitting to things they may or may not be guilty of (having white privilege), and arbitrarily increasing the amount of Blacks hired.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

List of Demands
I. We demand ...

Some of the protesters' requests appear relatively reasonable and possibly achievable within workable timelines, but it's a reach to absolutely expect the Mizzou system to agree with some of their List of Demands or for such demands to magically change or quickly enhance current societal views. For example, adding or enhancing cultural awareness classes may sound attractive. Good luck mandating all students absolutely must participate. Or, to change the racist upbringing, views, or actions of some people of all colors, ethnic backgrounds, etc. (students, staff, and faculty).

Additionally, "... II. We demand ... a new amendment to UM system policies must be established to have all future UM system president and Chancellor positions be selected by a collective of students, staff, and faculty of diverse backgrounds." Perhaps some input on potential candidates or general suggestions on possible backgrounds and experience may be reasonable and workable, but demanding students, staff, and faculty select all future system presidents and campus chancellors (?). Yup, that'll happen.

 

[businesslawyer]

I must say, the charge that he "allowed his driver to hit a bystander " is pretty funny. When I have a driver take me to the airport, not once have I said "oh, and please be sure you don't hit any pedestrians." I don't think that would make me complicit in an accident.

Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[upstater]

They want a lot more than mandatory training. They also want people to hand write letters admitting to things they may or may not be guilty of (having white privilege), and arbitrarily increasing the amount of Blacks hired.

I was the first one in this thread to say the demands were over the top. BUT, the demands made in 2014 by the same group were more or less what's in place at many other universities, and there was absolutely no willingness to even engage them by the president. Tone deaf. I'm not sure who the academic advisor was for these students, but he may have told then, "You might as well go all in at this point." That being said, I considered the Pres's resignation as extremely extreme. And look at what we have today.

 

[upstater]

Some of the protesters' requests appear relatively reasonable and possibly achievable within workable timelines, but it's a reach to absolutely expect the Mizzou system to agree with some of their List of Demands or for such demands to magically change or quickly enhance current societal views. For example, adding or enhancing cultural awareness classes may sound attractive. Good luck mandating all students absolutely must participate. Or, to change the racist upbringing, views, or actions of some people of all colors, ethnic backgrounds, etc. (students, staff, and faculty).

Additionally, "... II. We demand ... a new amendment to UM system policies must be established to have all future UM system president and Chancellor positions be selected by a collective of students, staff, and faculty of diverse backgrounds." Perhaps some input on potential candidates or general suggestions on possible backgrounds and experience may be reasonable and workable, but demanding students, staff, and faculty select all future system presidents and campus chancellors (?). Yup, that'll happen.

Other universities have such mandatory classes.

 

[Nostical]

I have read nothing about this situation.
The president resigning isn't necessarily going to change anything with regards to racism tension on campus.
As for the swastika, my position remains unchanged that the time when the symbol by itself was truly frightening has long passed.

Well Carl, since you've raised some provocative points you at least deserve a serious response.
The reason you haven't read anything about the Missouri situation is the same one I have. There wasn't one media outlet I listened to last week that even mentiond the tensions at Mizzou. It wasn't until the football team reacted, showing the power and leverage of big time athletics, that the nation took notice. I actually agree with you that there was a greater chance of reform had the President stayed--and acted, with his feet firmly held to a white hot fire. But he resigned amid lots of dancing in the streets. Let's see whether his absence leads to the kind of reforms wished for.
As for the swastika, all I can say is fear (like beauty) is in the eye of the beholder. Yesterday, Nov 9th was the anniversary of Kristallnacht, the night of broken glass. In 1938, my then 14 year old mother-in-law's home in Nuremberg was forcibly entered by black shirted Nazis who terrorized, smashed every dish and goblet and searched for any men to drag out and shoot. Even now, at age 91 and living comfortably in Peabody MA, I would think the frightening nature of a swastika may not have "long passed" for her. But whether it's a swastika, a confederate flag or any other symbolically displayed epithet that gives rise to heated or chilling emotion, maybe we shouldn't be so quick to assume the degree of lingering effect those hate symbols still have on others.