OT: Mizzou black football players taking a stand

[superjohn]

I'm not taking the time to go back through every word I"ve typed, but I'm pretty sure that I conveyed that the time when the symbol (a swastika) truly represented something to be feared - has long passed. At least that's what I tried to convey. I'm not perfect. THe chances of a group of black shirted Nazi's wearing swastikas and invading somebody's home in 2015, and dragging them in the street and killing them is pretty slim these days, nor is the swastika currently danger to anyone on the east coast - unless you're an unprepared and foolish ocean diver. A bunch of bigots that have latched onto the swastika in an attempt to induce fear and intimidation? Not the same as the third reich in my book. I'm not going to get into any more detail than I have before on this website, but I also have a personal family connection to people that lived through the Third Reich, and were subject to horrifying things. I know about Kristalnacht through personal stories as well.

I'm pretty sure I didn't write that it's a symbol that has no meaning whatsoever, and I'm pretty sure I did write somewhere relatively clearly, that anyone using it in a manner that isn't clearly meant for productive education learn from history kind of thing, is obviously trying to induce fear and intimidation. That it would clearly affect someone like your MIL with a fear response is also natural.

The question(s) I posed - are #1. Do you let it intimidate you and strike fear? #2. What do you do about it.? (and these aren't questions that are restricted to a swastika)

As for Missouri - I've put way more time and thought into this than I ever intended. They got a community problem down there, that needs quality leadership that can bring everybody together. That's it.

Of course bigots wearing swastikas today isn't in any way comparable to the Third Reich, nobody said that, so there is no need for non sequiturs. We still have many homegrown hate groups and many of these domestic terrorists love Nazi symbolism. I know this isn't the place for it but over on the cesspool you constantly talk about the fear of Muslim terrorists attacking Americans on US soil. They want to strike fear on the American population just like the domestic terrorists do and despite what many believe the domestic terrorists have been the bigger threat since 911.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Of course bigots wearing swastikas today isn't in any way comparable to the Third Reich, nobody said that, so there is no need for non sequiturs. We still have many homegrown hate groups and many of these domestic terrorists love Nazi symbolism. I know this isn't the place for it but over on the cesspool you constantly talk about the fear of Muslim terrorists attacking Americans on US soil. They want to strike fear on the American population just like the domestic terrorists do and despite what many believe the domestic terrorists have been the bigger threat since 911.

We're going to differ on some things. That's ok. Until an organized movement arises that wears the Swastika as it's brand, and is really dangerous - it's nothing more than what you exactly describe - a symbolism thread for bigotry. I submit, that people allowing symbolism of such a nature to influence them in a negative fashion, does nothing except do exactly what whoever would use such symbolism wants - and that is intimidation and fear and hatred. For me - the actual symbol itself? Irrelevant. It's unhealthy fear response, weakness, that people that would use such symbols in such way, want- and I'm of the opinion, tha tthy'er not going to get it from me, and I'd loke for as many other people to feel the same way. Don't empower ---kers by acknowledging anything.

For me - a symbol that becomes a true threat assessment, something to induce a healthy fear response - is much different, and the swastika doesn't qualify. Would my antennae ramp up a bit if somebody walks into a room with a swastika arm band on? Sure - but it's not going to be a fear response from me.

My mistake in this entire discussion, is two fold, it's taking a level of things into a discussion forum that's not really about it - this is a football place, and second - failing to observe the basic reality that my view, isn't going to be everybody's view when it comes to certain aspect of human behavior. I fully acknowledge it. I'm wrong, about what I've already stated. It's a mistake for me to think that other people are going to respond the same way to things that I do, regardless of any words or actions I can engage with.

I don't think a swastika is anything to be afraid of, and I'm wrong to think others wouldn't have a fear response from it.

(I'm just prone to getting into that position in pretty intense subject matter)

Do I need to write another mea culpa or will this suffice to the boneyard etiquette?

 

[upstater]

Of course, sugar coating and painting lipstick on institutional pigs exists in many diverse ways in universities, corporations, hospitals, non-profits, and in other organizations. That's not a suggestion offering diversity seminars, discussions, etc. is necessarily a bad idea, but mandating participation may not only be unenforceable it may not help. Meanwhile, on campuses across the country ...

Hey Jorge, Kelly, Mohammad, Wangster, ya wanna go to Ted's? (or, Eskimos, The Plaza, Mahaney's, Airliner, Pavlov's, etc.)
Nah, PC RA told us we absolutely must participate in some mandatory %$&#@ diversity class
Ah, screw that ... let's go ...
Uh yeah, bring us a couple pitchers of PBRs

So you're saying they lack enforcement techniques? Trust me, they don't.

And to say this is all hogwash is crazy given the value of such classes.

 

[huskymedic]

University of Missouri president Tim Wolfe has resigned as president.
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/n...cle_ed75afb0-86fb-11e5-9e17-df8eb9362f14.html

CoMissourian5:30pm via TweetDeck
Chancellor Loftin is transitioning from role of chancellor at the end of the year to new role within the university system.
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/n...cle_41644c0a-8731-11e5-be41-5754104c4116.html

EmVand5:40pm via Twitter Web Client
Announcement: A first ever chief diversity, inclusion and equity officer will be appointed for the UM System @CoMissourian

 

[Rocktheworld]

Spackler gonna Spackle

 

[Carl Spackler]

I'll probably catch flak for this, but I think that a place like the University of Missouri is on a dangerous path. Something clearly need to change, and there are problems - but was this the best course? was it the only course? I don't know.

Regardless of what current issues may be, and what the specific circumstances may be of any situation that leads to leadership resigning - the phrase "inmates running the asylum" doesn't inspire faith that there will be a good outcome. Just because the leadership is resigning, doesn't mean things are going to change for the better. I read the list of demands and that strikes me as something that's not well though out.

Too many people these days, initiating action, without thinking about consequences, and I'm generalizing again - with that comment, but it certainly seems that whoever wrote that list of demands, if accurate, is getting what they want - for the short term at least.

have a good day all.

 

[huskypantz]

I took a quick look at the state diversity stats for MO. 80% white - wow. CT is 68%. Faculty ethnic distribution pretty much matches students except for black and asians - asians are 2% of students but 16.67% of faculty. Blacks 7% of students and 3.25% of faculty. The % of full-time staff matches the student body. It seems like the state in general is just not diverse.

https://diversity.missouri.edu/about/stats/

 

[Nostical]

It will be interesting to see if the Mizzou experience now serves as a template for any university where students, especially minority students, feel disaffected and marginalized without, in their view, appropriate redress by the administration. All you need is a leader with a megaphone who can galvanize support from the football team, willing to forfeit games. Heads would be rolling in all those ivory towers. The only difference is that just like in conference affiliation, only those institutions where football or basketball really matters will be able to leverage the opinions of the athletes.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

So you're saying they lack enforcement techniques? Trust me, they don't. And to say this is all hogwash is crazy given the value of such classes.

After stating diversity seminars, discussions, etc. are not necessarily a bad idea, somehow it was misinterpreted as such classes are "hogwash". Whether diversity class speakers, teachers, discussion leaders, etc. are any good or the very real possibility some schools, companies, institutions, etc. use them as sugar coating are key considerations, but a hogwash topic? Nope, neither stated nor implied. Sticking with what was actually stated, I suggested it mandating attendance at some schools may or may not be beneficial.

The further away from the northeast, the west coast, big urban education centers, etc., I suspect there may be less inclination to force attendance. Perhaps that's way off the mark, and (1) mandated attendance actually exists more broadly nationally in academia than expected, or (2) the potential benefits are believed to exceed or are somehow proven to surpass possible negatives, e.g., relatively open minded, and especially racist students, do not shut down or just crash during well intended training/classes.

Noting you work in academia, I'm confident some people actually view mandated participation as enforceable and penalties may somehow be imposed. Whether that back fires, e.g., fails to help broaden the minds of those who could benefit the most, is a reasonable consideration. At schools mandating attendance, how is it typically enforced? No enrollment? No housing? No grades, transcripts, etc.?

 

[Pudge]

It will be interesting to see if the Mizzou experience now serves as a template for any university where students, especially minority students, feel disaffected and marginalized without, in their view, appropriate redress by the administration. All you need is a leader with a megaphone who can galvanize support from the football team, willing to forfeit games. Heads would be rolling in all those ivory towers. The only difference is that just like in conference affiliation, only those institutions where football or basketball really matters will be able to leverage the opinions of the athletes.

Don't forget the hunger strike!!!

We all need Bobby Sands.

Fact is ... this is a Watershed moment for College Sports and what the NCAA feared. I, however, find this as Black athletes - the subservient money makers - finding their power. To Spackler: this is not bad for Mizzou. This is showing ... with Sam two years ago ... that we have a new generation. KUDOS for Gary Pinkel. We know not where this will take us. But, the fact that the athletes can step up ... tells me that the UNC fraud classes can also be addressed by the Black Athletes that are getting screwed.

 

[upstater]

After stating diversity seminars, discussions, etc. are not necessarily a bad idea, somehow it was misinterpreted as such classes are "hogwash".

I was just playing off your "pig" metaphor. That's why I wrote hogwash.

The mandatory diversity training for students comes in the form of 1 credit requirement toward graduation. No attendance at the class? No diploma. For faculty, they have other measures that compel attendance. You can't get around it, nor would you really press it.

 

[HuskiesFan1014]

Anybody who gets to this point and has read all 7 pages of this deserves a helmet sticker.

If this discussion happened in the early days of AOL, we'd all be done with our 56 free hours of internet. (Mostly due to Spackler. )

Must be a bye week.

Kudos to all who have shared their viewpoints, because despite the fact that topics like racism, sexism, politics and the like are so likely to reveal the otherwise invisible differences between all of us, it hasn't gotten anywhere near as ugly as I thought it would when I saw the OP.

There is some serious intelligence here in the Boneyard. I'm usually amazed at the depth of football knowledge that some of you have. I'm just a rabid fan who played mostly Pop Warner ball and rode the bench a bit in high school, and I appreciate the insight I get and have learned a ton from all of you (well, most of you.)

Today I see another side of the collective intellect that exists in this place. So much more than football, this Boneyard.

Now let's get back to football. Please!

 

[upstater]

It will be interesting to see if the Mizzou experience now serves as a template for any university where students, especially minority students, feel disaffected and marginalized without, in their view, appropriate redress by the administration. All you need is a leader with a megaphone who can galvanize support from the football team, willing to forfeit games. Heads would be rolling in all those ivory towers. The only difference is that just like in conference affiliation, only those institutions where football or basketball really matters will be able to leverage the opinions of the athletes.

What happened in Missouri is actually very common. Oklahoma St had a similar set of circumstances just this year. U Buffalo had an incident that made national news and the New York Times. In many cases, student advocate groups call for resignations. But the power here to refuse to hold football games seems to really really matter in Missouri. So that's a difference. This couldn't work in many places. Wouldn't work at Maryland, Pitt, UConn, Penn State, Michigan, and Pac-10 schools. Many ACC schools too.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

I was just playing off your "pig" metaphor. That's why I wrote hogwash.

The mandatory diversity training for students comes in the form of 1 credit requirement toward graduation. No attendance at the class? No diploma. For faculty, they have other measures that compel attendance. You can't get around it, nor would you really press it.

Thanks for clarifying how some schools enforce participation. Got it, hogwash as in schools, companies, other institutions, slapping lipstick on their pig (cultural relations), e.g., very likely too many of the mandated 1 credit, sugar coating classes required for graduation versus more substantive education, discussions, etc.

Many corporate HR departments run employees through occasional, too often simply check the box off, diversity training. Whether such programs are effective likely varies tremendously for different people and with trainers, educators, managers, etc of varied experience levels, online courses of widely disparate quality, etc. Whether any truly beneficial influence exists with students or employees force fed or mandated to attend, especially less open minded people to clear racists, is dubious IMHO.

As an academic, any thoughts on differences at universities and colleges by region? Public v Private? Small v big? Again, your insight is appreciated.

 

[UconnU]

Lets be honest multiculturalism has failed.

 

[huskymedic]

Confused yet?

Missouri Communications Professor Yelled for Muscle to Expel Media, Days After Begging for Coverage

 

[upstater]

Thanks for clarifying how some schools enforce participation. Got it, hogwash as in schools, companies, other institutions, slapping lipstick on their pig (cultural relations), e.g., very likely too many of the mandated 1 credit, sugar coating classes required for graduation versus more substantive education, discussions, etc.

Many corporate HR departments run employees through occasional, too often simply check the box off, diversity training. Whether such programs are effective likely varies tremendously for different people and with trainers, educators, managers, etc of varied experience levels, online courses of widely disparate quality, etc. Whether any truly beneficial influence exists with students or employees force fed or mandated to attend, especially less open minded people to clear racists, is dubious IMHO.

As an academic, any thoughts on differences at universities and colleges by region? Public v Private? Small v big? Again, your insight is appreciated.

I disagree that the course is sugar-coated or however you describe it. In fact, the course is depressing in the sense that many people take it and see the light of day, which shows the kind of cocoons we all live in. Last year, the National Book Award winner, a book called Citizen, was a revelation for many but all it did was give anecdotes of the day to day encounters of a black woman and her sheer exhaustion at it all. The fact that these experiences are revelatory for even educated white people says a lot about the state of race relations, and in that sense such classes become necessary

 

[upstater]

Lets be honest multiculturalism has failed.

You realize the President was born in Kenya and attended madrassas in Indonesia, don't you? I'd call that a multicultural success.

 

[LRock34]

upstater:

Missouri does have diversity training/classes: https://diversity.missouri.edu/learn/training/

The group just wants to define what this training is themselves.

Reading this thread there is not a single person who could benefit from diversity training more than you. The friggin arrogance of some people.... Ugh

 

[LRock34]

They want a lot more than mandatory training. They also want people to hand write letters admitting to things they may or may not be guilty of (having white privilege), and arbitrarily increasing the amount of Blacks hired.

There is a very simple reason that the list was absurd. They wanted him gone! They demanded things that he would never do because he needed to be fired or resign. Why? Because he ignored issues of racism on campus for at least 2 years! Issues that have been a problem for 50+ years! If you took a moment to look beyond your own ignorance you MIGHT understand this.

I hate when things like this happen because it always shows me just how insensitive people (particularly SOME white Americans) are. The audacity to even have an opinion on how minorities should react to racism.... SMFH.

 

[BlueDogs]

There is a very simple reason that the list was absurd. They wanted him gone! They demanded things that he would never do because he needed to be fired or resign. Why? Because he ignored issues of racism on campus for at least 2 years! Issues that have been a problem for 50+ years! If you took a moment to look beyond your own ignorance you MIGHT understand this.

I hate when things like this happen because it always shows me just how insensitive people (particularly SOME white Americans) are. The audacity to even have an opinion on how minorities should react to racism.... SMFH.

Smells similar to the Red Chinese denouncement process to me. Free speech is allowed as long as it meets standards of p0litical correctness. Its from the same mindset that kicked out a counter-feminist author from Williams because her words did not create a "safe space" for woman. Nonsense drivel.

 

[Stainmaster]

Smells similar to the Red Chinese denouncement process to me. Free speech is allowed as long as it meets standards of p0litical correctness. Its from the same mindset that kicked out a counter-feminist author from Williams because her words did not create a "safe space" for woman. Nonsense drivel.

So you're telling me that if you were a college student whose school was hosting Louis Farrakhan or Al Sharpton, you'd be okay with it and wouldn't take any action?

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

I disagree that the course is sugar-coated or however you describe it. In fact, the course is depressing in the sense that many people take it and see the light of day, which shows the kind of cocoons we all live in.

Perhaps your university's students, even if mandated to attend, are quite fortunate to participate in quality seminars, classes, etc. and the latter actually open some eyes and brains. Kudos! In contrast, and repeating the prior point, it was clearly suggested many organizations just click a we conducted diversity training box versus those which actually deliver quality classes and provide ongoing support across all groups. Read: symbolic sugar coating, or proverbial slapping lipstick on their campus/corporate race relations pig, versus productive, eye opening training as may occur on your campus. But, how's the football team?

 

[traitor71]

Don't forget the hunger strike!!!

We all need Bobby Sands.

Fact is ... this is a Watershed moment for College Sports and what the NCAA feared. I, however, find this as Black athletes - the subservient money makers - finding their power. To Spackler: this is not bad for Mizzou. This is showing ... with Sam two years ago ... that we have a new generation. KUDOS for Gary Pinkel. We know not where this will take us. But, the fact that the athletes can step up ... tells me that the UNC fraud classes can also be addressed by the Black Athletes that are getting screwed.

How were they getting screwed in that situation? Guys that are in college to play ball, because they can play ball, most of whom would not be in college otherwise, aren't going to rock the boat over anything that made it easier for them.

 

[traitor71]

Confused yet?

Missouri Communications Professor Yelled for Muscle to Expel Media, Days After Begging for Coverage

I like how she sort of gave him a smack at the end there. Can you imagine if the roles were reversed? And how would she react if someone was to call for "some muscle" to remove her from being there?

 

[traitor71]

I agree that much of what they are looking for is not only reasonable, but logical and necessary. The other stuff they want makes it hard to take them seriously though.

A poor delivery often obscures a positive message. The demand for mandatory classes was absurd to say the least and pretty scary to me.

 

[pnow15]

Guarantee there is no organization that is more sensitive to diversity, political correctness, more responsive to quotas, more concern with the feelings of it employees and their cultures than the VETERANS ADMINISTRATION.

 

[upstater]

Smells similar to the Red Chinese denouncement process to me. Free speech is allowed as long as it meets standards of p0litical correctness. Its from the same mindset that kicked out a counter-feminist author from Williams because her words did not create a "safe space" for woman. Nonsense drivel.

There actually is no free speech to be racist on campus, you're right about that.

 

[upstater]

Perhaps your university's students, even if mandated to attend, are quite fortunate to participate in quality seminars, classes, etc. and the latter actually open some eyes and brains. Kudos! In contrast, and repeating the prior point, it was clearly suggested many organizations just click a we conducted diversity training box versus those which actually deliver quality classes and provide ongoing support across all groups. Read: symbolic sugar coating, or proverbial slapping lipstick on their campus/corporate race relations pig, versus productive, eye opening training as may occur on your campus. But, how's the football team?

There was a lot objectionable about the demands, like taking over the curriculum, but there are a lot of people on that campus that could easily design a strong curriculum for such training.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Don't forget the hunger strike!!!

We all need Bobby Sands.

Fact is ... this is a Watershed moment for College Sports and what the NCAA feared. I, however, find this as Black athletes - the subservient money makers - finding their power. To Spackler: this is not bad for Mizzou. This is showing ... with Sam two years ago ... that we have a new generation. KUDOS for Gary Pinkel. We know not where this will take us. But, the fact that the athletes can step up ... tells me that the UNC fraud classes can also be addressed by the Black Athletes that are getting screwed.

Hope you're right Pudge. Are there circumstances where a mutiny is warranted? Sure. It's not something where say the thought process should go from: "I don't really like what our leadership is doing" to....."let's strike/riot/do whatever it takes to get them to resign or be fired."

I'm not suggesting that it wasn't warranted in Missouri - an that that there were not a set of steps inbetween that were taken - but a leadership accountability problem certainly existed long term, and something tneeded to be done. But reading that list of demands? Umm - not good IMO.

I think it's a bad road to go down, for people to begin to accept that strikes/riots/boycotts/protests etc. are a normal, expected, and at worst - primary - mode of seeking accountability and if necessary - change - in leadership for any group or organization of community. Is it viable and effective? Sure - but it should be a last resort - and it should never be done without careful thought and consideration about what you do, if you are actually successful.

I think it got to that point that it was a necessary option and viable at UMissouri, but I think very little thought and consideration was put into what the University community does now.

Slippery slope.