OT: Mariano gets 100% HOF votes???

[storrsroars]

If he'd had two good legs, he would've hit 600+ easily. And got those two extra points for a .300 career BA.

 

[Chin Diesel]

If he'd had two good legs, he would've hit 600+ easily. And got those two extra points for a .300 career BA.

I know there were a bunch of players affected by WWII, but I was looking at Mantle and comparing it to Ted Williams.

Look at the two years preceding WWII and the four years after Williams' service. It's not a stretch to say he would have gone over 3k hits, 2k runs and been somewhere between 625-650 HR's. Six straight years of leading the league in walks, OBP, SLG and stands to reason OPS. Add in 4 batting championships (the two years he didn't win, he batted .344 and .342).

For his career he had one season where his OPS was below 1.000.

 

[huskeynut]

My mom grew up a huge Mantle fan. She used to curse out Billy Martin because she thinks Billy turned him on to the sauce.

I think Mantle gets short changed some times especially with the modern steroid era numbers. He was a switch hitter who had Ruthian like reputation for hitting the ball long and far.

3 MVP's, 3 second place finishes, a third place and two fifth place.

Mickey Mantle Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

His career power numbers are still top flight.

And as a lifelong Sox fan, Yaz isn't anywhere near the Mick.

Mantle also won the Triple Crown in 1956 - .353 BA, 52 HRs, 130 RBI's.

 

[Palatine]

I know there were a bunch of players affected by WWII, but I was looking at Mantle and comparing it to Ted Williams.

Look at the two years preceding WWII and the four years after Williams' service. It's not a stretch to say he would have gone over 3k hits, 2k runs and been somewhere between 625-650 HR's. Six straight years of leading the league in walks, OBP, SLG and stands to reason OPS. Add in 4 batting championships (the two years he didn't win, he batted .344 and .342).

For his career he had one season where his OPS was below 1.000.

View attachment 38823

Yeah, and put Ted Williams -dead pull hitter- in Yankee Stadium and he's chasing 714. Notce his low numbers in 1952/1953? He was recalled into the service to fly jets in Korea, that's another 200+ games (two years) he missed because of military service.

BTW, who are the idiots that didn't vote for Babe Ruth for the HOF?

 

[Waquoit]

And as a lifelong Sox fan, Yaz isn't anywhere near the Mick.

And I don't think that's controversial.

 

[Waquoit]

I just stumbled on to this old article. Bill James declaring his best 5 players in any given season up to 2003. Yaz is tops twice. Long Read Alert - but I like this kind of stuff.

 

[Excalibur]

Deepster lost this argument when he tried to compare career numbers in different eras.

 

[Deepster]

Deepster lost this argument when he tried to compare career numbers in different eras.

My argument was that Yaz is not as highly ranked as the OP stated. And I am/was right on that.

 

[Husky25]

Deepster lost this argument when he tried to compare career numbers in different eras clicked "Post Reply."

FIFY

 

[Husky25]

Yeah, and put Ted Williams -dead pull hitter- in Yankee Stadium and he's chasing 714. Notce his low numbers in 1952/1953? He was recalled into the service to fly jets in Korea, that's another 200+ games (two years) he missed because of military service.

BTW, who are the idiots that didn't vote for Babe Ruth for the HOF?

Ruth should be so lucky to be mentioned with the likes of Harold Baines.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Ruth should be so lucky to be mentioned with the likes of Harold Baines.

The big question is if Ottavino woudl strike them both out, each and every time

 

[Deadrody]

Deepster lost this argument when he tried to compare career numbers in different eras.

Then you can use WAR. Mantle average 7 WAR per 150 games. Yaz average 4.3 WAR per 150 games. It's not close.

 

[mauconnfan]

Then you can use WAR. Mantle average 7 WAR per 150 games. Yaz average 4.3 WAR per 150 games. It's not close.

Don’t even need WAR but look at that. I respect Yaz solid player for sure but you can’t be serious to even think he and #7 are close to the same level. As pointed out if they had today’s technology to repair his knee he may have been in an argument for the best ever based on his 5 tool abilities.

 

[Excalibur]

Don’t even need WAR but look at that. I respect Yaz solid player for sure but you can’t be serious to even think he and #7 are close to the same level. As pointed out if they had today’s technology to repair his knee he may have been in an argument for the best ever based on his 5 tool abilities.

Did I miss it? Did someone say Yaz was equal to Mantle?

 

[Husky25]

Did I miss it? Did someone say Yaz was equal to Mantle?

No, but apparently heaven forbid that I classified him as a Tier 2 HoFer along with Mantle. I never necessarily said they were "equal," per se. Heck, I never even referred to Mantle, let alone mention him, after post #11, my first in this thread.

The implication was that if space in the Hall of Fame were limited (which it isn't) and the Veterans Committee (or BBWAA, for that matter) want to vote in a player of Harold Baines' ilk, they would be forced to vote out a player to be replaced. Players in the top two tiers were safe from relegation and personally, I included both Yaz and Mantle in that second tier. I think 1st ballot Hall of Famers garnering nearly 95% of the votes earn that consideration.

 

[mauconnfan]

Did I miss it? Did someone say Yaz was equal to Mantle?

They probably said it was close I’m now reading backwards you can if you wish. It’s not close is all I’m saying although I did use “equal” in error.

 

[Excalibur]

No, but apparently heaven forbid that I classified him as a Tier 2 HoFer along with Mantle. I never necessarily said they were "equal," per se. Heck, I never even referred to Mantle, let alone mention him, after post #11, my first in this thread.

The implication was that if space in the Hall of Fame were limited (which it isn't) and the Veterans Committee (or BBWAA, for that matter) want to vote in a player of Harold Baines' ilk, they would be forced to vote out a player to be replaced. Players in the top two tiers were safe from relegation and personally, I included both Yaz and Mantle in that second tier. I think 1st ballot Hall of Famers garnering nearly 95% of the votes earn that consideration.

Good explanation, though I think it's pretty clear that, in your paradigm, Mantle is one of those tier 2 hall of famers that is right on the cusp of the first tier, if not in it. Yaz would likely be in the bottom of tier 2.

That people interpreted that as some statement that Yaz was Mantle's peer is more a reflection on them . . . particularly those who would resurrect a 4 month-old thread to argue against something nobody was saying.

 

[Husky25]

Good explanation, though I think it's pretty clear that, in your paradigm, Mantle is one of those tier 2 hall of famers that is right on the cusp of the first tier, if not in it. Yaz would likely be in the bottom of tier 2.

That people interpreted that as some statement that Yaz was Mantle's peer is more a reflection on them . . . particularly those who would resurrect a 4 month-old thread to argue against something nobody was saying.

In fairness, when compared to Harold Baines, I did say that Yaz was closer to legendary than to someone for whom one would merely buy a ticket.

Alas, I think your second paragraph is spot on.

 

[SubbaBub]

While I'm a big advanced stats guy, part of me continues to think that part of the criteria for HoF inclusion is, "Is this a guy I'd buy a ticket to go see?" And I'll buy a ticket to see generational talents regardless what team they're on - which is pretty much the only good thing about interleague play. Still waiting to see Mike Trout at PNC Park as I was out of town the only time he visited here.

Rivero isn't a guy I'd buy a ticket for (and I'd say the same for any reliever). Heck, you wouldn't know in advance if he was even going to get in the game.

Except for playoff games...

And he wasn't just good, he was off the charts good. Go find someone who's pitched that many innings with that low of an ERA.

Him giving up a run or losing a game was national news. It's not like we are talking about Lee Smith.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Open a Mariano Rivera thread and people arguing Mantle, Yaz and Baines, with a bit of Williams. Weird.
Mantle > Yaz > Baines. The HoF should cut off before Baines. He doesn't belong at all. Yaz is solidly in.

Meanwhile, as a Sox fan...let me give the Wayne's World "we're not worthy" salute to Rivera. Superb player. Class act. Possibly my all time favorite Yankee along with Mattingly. Nothing bad to say about the guy.

 

[Husky25]

Worst MLB Hall of Famers

I apologize in advance for posting a slideshow, but this link is Exhibit A for the argument to perhaps disband the Veterans Committee. At the very least, their influence should be drastically curtailed.

 

[Waquoit]

The horses at Saratoga are starting a couple weeks earlier than before this year. So of course the new opening day is a tribute to Mariano Rivera.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

The horses at Saratoga are starting a couple weeks earlier than before this year. So of course the new opening day is a tribute to Mariano Rivera.

Saratoga should always open earlier in the summer because its a great boost to the Capitol region and who really wants to spend a hot, steamy, summer day, at Belmont in the City.

 

[Husky25]

Belmont is not in The City. It's on Long Island. I've only been there for Stakes day (both for Triple Crown threats and not), but the way I see it, Belmont Park doesn't have the intimacy of Saratoga. It's like every day is family day at Saratoga and the short season gives it an air of exclusivity.

You can fit 2 or 3 Saratogas in Belmont. For Triple Crown threats, the place holds upwards of 120k (not since they've capped it in recent years, but I was there for the Smarty Jones race.). If it's raining, it's a complete #2-show and that is exactly what happened for the Big Brown race day, if I recall the year correctly. It didn't rain that year, but it was Hades hot. The plumbing failed and 110K were lining up for the port-a-potties with no way to wash up. If there is not a Triple Crown threat, it still caters to about 60,000, but the grandstands feels empty and cavernous by comparison.

 

[Waquoit]

Belmont isn't Saratoga and it's obsolete as a spectator facility but I still love it. I like that it's huge. You can still picnic in the back. And I love that a seat in the grandstand that costs $40 at Saratoga is GA at Belmont.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Belmont isn't Saratoga and it's obsolete as a spectator facility but I still love it. I like that it's huge. You can still picnic in the back. And I love that a seat in the grandstand that costs $40 at Saratoga is GA at Belmont.

Never been to Belmont; but, went to Saratoga 2 or 3 times a summer when I was young. My family woudl go with a few other families that had kids my age and would picnic in the back. The men brought a lot of beer, which, when we got older, we would try to liberate a few. One of my friend's Mom was old-school Itallian, so you can imagine the food. We would run around, bet $2 on the ponies and have fun. Plus, a lot of high school and college girls worked the conession stands, which proided some distractions (and a lost race or two). Sometimes, we would get offrered tickets for the grandstand from folks on their way out who were leaving early. I also knew a guy from the lake who was also old-school Italian and bet more on 1 race than we would the entire summer. He had an 'in' and would take us inside to talk to the jockies and see the horses before the walked out.

 

[Travelman6]

Omar Vizquel deserved to get in, anyone else agree? That guy was a defensive wizard! Maybe next year.

Who are some of the biggest HOF snubs?
In my opinion Albert Belle, Kenny Lofton, Bill Buckner, Vada Pinson (before my time), Gary Sheffield and, jeff Kent and fred "crimedog" McGriff deserve to be in. (I am and, I think always will be, on the fence about people like Bonds, Rose, Clemens, Palmeiro, Sosa, etc. but part of me thinks they should be in too, maybe with an *)

In my opinion when the time comes, all of these players should be first ballot: Albert Pujols, Ichiro Suzuki, Adrian Beltre, Miguel Cabrera. Though we still have many years to wait for all, anyone agree with all four deserving to get in on their first ballot?

 

[Excalibur]

In my opinion when the time comes, all of these players should be first ballot: Albert Pujols, Ichiro Suzuki, Adrian Beltre, Miguel Cabrera. Though we still have many years to wait for all, anyone agree with all four deserving to get in on their first ballot?

I don't think you'll get much argument on this.