OT: Mariano gets 100% HOF votes???

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#1
At 6:00 tonight the HOF votes come in for this year's class in baseball.
Never has anyone gotten 100% of the votes.

Interesting situation ...contradictory?

Bill Ballou of Worcester thinks closers are overvalued...and while Mariano deserves to get in, he will refuse to vote for him on the first ballot due to his take on relievers.
But: he apparently does not want to hurt Rivera's chances of getting 100% of the votes...so he won't turn in his ballot.

A non-returned ballot does not count against Mariano...so if all the other ballots name him, he will be the first ever to get on a unanimous vote.

So...to promote his opinion on relievers being overvalued he opts to engage in behavior that makes it MORE likely that a reliever forevermore will be the first to get at 100%. You would think that situation would mortify him...???

BTW: a blank ballot would obviously count against Mariano's entrance this time round.
 

Chin Diesel

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#2
At 6:00 tonight the HOF votes come in for this year's class in baseball.
Never has anyone gotten 100% of the votes.

Interesting situation ...contradictory?

Bill Ballou of Worcester thinks closers are overvalued...and while Mariano deserves to get in, he will refuse to vote for him on the first ballot due to his take on relievers.
But: he apparently does not want to hurt Rivera's chances of getting 100% of the votes...so he won't turn in his ballot.

A non-returned ballot does not count against Mariano...so if all the other ballots name him, he will be the first ever to get on a unanimous vote.

So...to promote his opinion on relievers being overvalued he opts to engage in behavior that makes it MORE likely that a reliever forevermore will be the first to get at 100%. You would think that situation would mortify him...???

BTW: a blank ballot would obviously count against Mariano's entrance this time round.

I never understood the BWAA's fascination with their opinions on integrity of the game BS. I'm close to 50 years old and my entire life of watching baseball was with Dan Hurley's and closers.

Going back to late 70's and early 80's- Kent Tekulve for the Pirates, Dan Quisenberry, Goose Gossage. Cripes I remember watching This Week in Baseball (TWIB) and seeing the Rolaids Relief Man award. I know I had baseball cards from the 70's highlighting closers. There is a 40 year history and evolution of the position and it deserves recognition. This isn't difficult.

Same thing with the Dan Hurley.

The old fuddy duddies still casting ballots are still mixing players who could have played elsewhere but were optimized for specialization in with the original batch of closers- pitchers who couldn't hack it as a starter and found relief pitching as their last resort to cling on to a roster spot or oldies who were past their prime. Same for Dan Hurley. Original Dan Hurley's were either horrible defenders or older players whose bodies couldn't handle the field anymore.

To me the Hall of Fame is supposed to tell the story of baseball across multiple eras and recognize the best players from that era and those who transformed the game.

For this year's class, Rivera is the apex of his position. He perfected it and lasted longer doing it more than anyone else.

Edgar Martinez is a transitional player who dominated his job. He has one foot in the not good enough to play the field and one foot in the why waste his energy in the field if he can hit this good.

I do worry about this 16 person oldies committee that just put Harold Baines in the HoF. He is no where near the Martinez or Frank Thomas level of dominance at that position. Or what Ortiz became.
 

storrsroars

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#3
While I'm a big advanced stats guy, part of me continues to think that part of the criteria for HoF inclusion is, "Is this a guy I'd buy a ticket to go see?" And I'll buy a ticket to see generational talents regardless what team they're on - which is pretty much the only good thing about interleague play. Still waiting to see Mike Trout at PNC Park as I was out of town the only time he visited here.

Rivero isn't a guy I'd buy a ticket for (and I'd say the same for any reliever). Heck, you wouldn't know in advance if he was even going to get in the game. Sure, he was very good, and you can make the argument that he helped the Yankees win a lot of games that resulted in more fannies in the seats. Given what the game has become, Rivero certainly should go in. But I don't think he should have the honor of the first unanimous vote, nor even surpass Seaver's 98% for that matter.

I hate the designated hitter, so couldn't care less about Edgar. The Baines HoF inclusion was a farce.
 

huskeynut

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#5
Relief pitchers have been recognized going all the way back to 1962 -

Dick Radatz, relief pitcher for the Red Sox, was Sporting News Fireman of the Year. 1962 was Radatz's rookie season were he posted 2.24 ERA. He led the league with 24 saves in 62 games. He also recorded 9 wins.

I'll add one more reliever - Sparky Lyle. Pitched for the Red Sox, Yankees, and others. 2.88 ERA with 238 saves.

So recognition of the relief pitcher has been around for a long while.
 

Chin Diesel

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#7
Still not excited about Mussina getting in the HoF. If you are going to compile it has to be crazy mad compilation numbers or have a really great 3-5 year stretch where you were lights out and just added to that.

No Cy Young's, no WS MVP's, never had to carry a team. A handful of top 5 CY finishes is his ceiling.

On the other hand, I always assumed Don Sutton was the ultimate Mendoza line for pitchers and Mussina matches up comparably to Sutton. I won't lose any sleep over it.

No problem with the other three.

The ESPN article sums up why I would make Halladay a first ballot and leave Mussina out. Halladay won CY in both leagues, had a perfect game and a no hitter in the playoffs. He had a peak where he was as good as anyone in the game. Four other seasons where he was top 4 in CY balloting.

• Halladay finished 203-105 in his career with a 3.38 ERA, playing 12 seasons with the Blue Jays and the final four with the Phillies. He won two Cy Young Awards, one with each franchise, finished second two other times, threw a perfect game and tossed a no-hitter for the Phillies in the 2010 Division Series against the Reds. He was also one of the last great workhorses. During his 2003 to 2011 peak, he threw 61 complete games -- 30 more than the No. 2 guy (CC Sabathia).
• Mussina played 18 seasons, 10 with the Orioles and eight with the Yankees. He compiled a 270-153 record with a 3.68 ERA and 2,813 strikeouts. Mussina was a five-time All-Star and earned seven Gold Gloves. He never won a Cy Young Award, finishing second in 1999 behind Boston's Pedro Martinez.
 

storrsroars

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#8
Somebody on that committee should've docked Rivera a vote for blowing the ALCS game that allowed the Sox to come all the way back.

As far as Mussina goes, I'm waiting for the advanced stats guys to bring Jerry Koosman back into the conversation for HoF inclusion.
 
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Dove

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#9
Still not excited about Mussina getting in the HoF. If you are going to compile it has to be crazy mad compilation numbers or have a really great 3-5 year stretch where you were lights out and just added to that.

No Cy Young's, no WS MVP's, never had to carry a team. A handful of top 5 CY finishes is his ceiling.

On the other hand, I always assumed Don Sutton was the ultimate Mendoza line for pitchers and Mussina matches up comparably to Sutton. I won't lose any sleep over it.

No problem with the other three.

The ESPN article sums up why I would make Halladay a first ballot and leave Mussina out. Halladay won CY in both leagues, had a perfect game and a no hitter in the playoffs. He had a peak where he was as good as anyone in the game. Four other seasons where he was top 4 in CY balloting.

• Halladay finished 203-105 in his career with a 3.38 ERA, playing 12 seasons with the Blue Jays and the final four with the Phillies. He won two Cy Young Awards, one with each franchise, finished second two other times, threw a perfect game and tossed a no-hitter for the Phillies in the 2010 Division Series against the Reds. He was also one of the last great workhorses. During his 2003 to 2011 peak, he threw 61 complete games -- 30 more than the No. 2 guy (CC Sabathia).
• Mussina played 18 seasons, 10 with the Orioles and eight with the Yankees. He compiled a 270-153 record with a 3.68 ERA and 2,813 strikeouts. Mussina was a five-time All-Star and earned seven Gold Gloves. He never won a Cy Young Award, finishing second in 1999 behind Boston's Pedro Martinez.
I'm a hardliner but can't argue against Moose. An excellent career and weirdly never won 20 games...until his FINAL season (team ace) where he was 20-9 with a 3.37 ERA and a K/BB ratio of 4.81. Wow.

Not a compiler. Just an excellent pitcher. Look at the K/BB ratios throughout his career. Never diminished.
 
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#10
Just for the record: The article I read yesterday was incomplete...the guy's position was that NO closer should ever get in...first ballot, second ballot....never.

Whoops: today's paper says he changed his mind and did send in his ballot....voting for Mo.

Perhaps a tad hyperbolic but he seems to be one you would not want to be in a foxhole with.
 

Husky25

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#11
Rivera was, and now is, a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. No doubt. Should he be unanimous? Why not? He was a transcendent pitcher. In fact, I'll go the other way. There should be MORE unanimous HOFers. The only reason there is not are "old school" writers who colluded that no one would be. They mostly seem to be gone. from the voting.

Edgar Martinez getting in, coupled with Clemens and Bonds getting more than a 70% share, clears the way for Ortiz. Maybe not on the 1st ballot, but he will get there.

I subscribe to the Bill Simmons theory of Hall of Fame induction. There should be a set amount of space for plaques and a criteria for voting someone into the Hall of Fame should also include who they should replace. Further, there should be a tiered pyramid (of sorts) to the HoF. The top would be reserved for the truly transcendent. The legendary. I.e. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, Cy Young, Jackie Robinson, Sandy Koufax, Nolan Ryan, Roberto Clemente (Mariano Rivera?), Joe Dimaggio, Walter Johnson,

The second tier would obviously be the next rung down. Ken Griffey Jr., Tom Seaver, Yaz, Rickey Henderson, Mathewson, Pedro Martinez, maybe Randy Johnson. Mickey Mantle, Berra, Stan Musial, Josh Gibson, Buck O'Neill

The Third level would include the rest of the players, as Storrsroars puts it, you would buy a ticket for. They would Definitely include Johnson, Ozzie Smith, Vlad Guererro, Willie McCovey, Don Drysdale.

The Fourth Level are those who you may not buy a ticket for, but who would be let's say appointment TV

The fifth are Hall of Famers in name only. The compilers (Though I maintain that staying healthy and playing 150 games for 15 years is as much a skill as hitting 500 HRs.). Those that got in because they are friends with other HoFers. Those that get in after their 11th year of eligibility. Those that are voted in by the Veterans Committee.

Players in levels 4 and 5 would be susceptible to relegation to the Hall of Very Good in neighboring Gilbertsville.
 
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#12
The second tier would obviously be the next rung down. Ken Griffey Jr., Tom Seaver, Yaz, Rickey Henderson, Mathewson, Pedro Martinez, maybe Randy Johnson. Mickey Mantle, Berra, Stan Musial, Josh Gibson, Buck O'Neill.
Yaz on the 2nd tier? Classic Sox fan bias.
 

Husky25

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#13
Yaz on the 2nd tier? Classic Sox fan bias.
I shouldn't even dignify this, only to say it's about what I'd expect.

Most neutral fans would probably put Yaz closer to Legendary, than someone one would merely buy a ticket for (Tier 3).
 
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#14
I shouldn't even dignify this, only to say it's about what I'd expect.

Most neutral fans would probably put Yaz closer to Legendary, than someone one would merely buy a ticket for (Tier 3).
He hit over .300 one time in his last 15 seasons (.301) and has a career .285 average. 1 MVP award in 23 seasons. 4th in MVP voting once, 6th another time, never in the top 10 otherwise. Playing LF in Fenway is super overrated. He was basically Harold Baines with a little more pop early in his career. This isn't even arguable.
 

Husky25

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#15
He hit over .300 one time in his last 15 seasons (.301) and has a career .285 average. 1 MVP award in 23 seasons. 4th in MVP voting once, 6th another time, never in the top 10 otherwise. Playing LF in Fenway is super overrated. He was basically Harold Baines with a little more pop early in his career. This isn't even arguable.
You are correct on one count: It's not arguable. The Baines statement makes the rest moot

Alas, I'll indulge.

First and foremost, Yaz was inducted into the Hall of Fame on his first ballot with over 94% of the BBWAA vote. Baines was dropped after his 6th year of eligibility. Anyone with a scant amount of baseball knowledge would recognize that Yaz is a tad more than Harold Baines with pop.

Yaz (Baines)
18 All Star Games when All Star appearances mattered (6).
7 Gold Gloves (0)
485 HR (384)
3,419 Hits (2866)
1 MVP, 2 other seasons with vote rank in single digits (0, 1 top 9)
1 Triple Crown (never led a single season in a triple crown category).
By my count, league leader in 37 offensive categories over 11 seasons (1)
96.4 Career WAR (38.7)

Other than on the field, Yastrzemski virtually single-handedly reinvigorated baseball in the Upper 5 1/2 New England States.

Baines was so valued by the White Sox, that he was traded TWICE mid-season for the franchise altering Player(s)-to-be-Named-Later (1. Joe Bitker and Scott Chiamparino; 2. Juan Bautista).
 
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#16
18 All Star Games when All Star appearances mattered -- A popularity contest
7 Gold Gloves (0) - Again, a subjective award
485 HR (384) - Over 23 years, that amounts to 4 more HR's a season
3,419 Hits (2866) - 24 more hits per season
1 Triple Crown - Yaz had two batting titles outside 1967....and didn't lead a single triple crown category his last 15 years

Other than on the field, Yastrzemski virtually single-handedly reinvigorated baseball in the Upper 5 1/2 New England States. - What a meaningless piece of garbage attempt this is.....

Without question, Yaz was a better player in the early part of their career. The last 15 years for each (ages 29-43 for Yaz, 28-42 for Baines):

.277 for Yaz / .291 for Baines
2,056 hits vs 1,789 hits - 17 more per season or 1 more hit every 10 games
290 HR's vs 244 HR's - 3 more per season
1,188 RBI vs 1,039 RBI

After a slower start by Baines, he arguably had the same career.
 

Husky25

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#17
What a meaningless piece of garbage attempt this is.....

Without question, Yaz was a better player in the early part of their career. The last 15 years for each (ages 29-43 for Yaz, 28-42 for Baines):

.277 for Yaz / .291 for Baines
2,056 hits vs 1,789 hits - 17 more per season or 1 more hit every 10 games
290 HR's vs 244 HR's - 3 more per season
1,188 RBI vs 1,039 RBI

After a slower start by Baines, he arguably had the same career.
This is a strange hill, to be certain...

If you want to compare apples to apples, use the same ages. You effectively added an additional prime year for Baines to Yastrzemski's farewell season at 43 years old. Baines didn't play until 43? Fine, compare both of their 28-42 year old seasons.

This brings Yaz's average to .279 (You used this vs. OBP because I'm guessing Yaz's .377 to Baines' .369 doesn't support your point), but his hit total to 2,117 (Extra base hits to 693 to Baines' 561), HRs to 303, and RBI to 1206.

Yaz was superior even in his late career.

/Discussion.
 

storrsroars

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#18
Without question, Yaz was a better player in the early part of their career. The last 15 years for each (ages 29-43 for Yaz, 28-42 for Baines):

.277 for Yaz / .291 for Baines
2,056 hits vs 1,789 hits - 17 more per season or 1 more hit every 10 games
290 HR's vs 244 HR's - 3 more per season
1,188 RBI vs 1,039 RBI

After a slower start by Baines, he arguably had the same career.
Imagine what Crash could've done with 1 more hit every 10 games...

 
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#20
LOLZ at .277 and 17 hrs a year being "superior"! He's the best!!! He had hot dogs named after him! And a song!
 
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#21
I'm a Sox fan and I wouldn't put Yaz in the 2nd group. Still, it's disingenuous to not mention his 3 batting titles (just missing a fourth by .0003). Also, Yaz' prime coincided with a pitcher-dominant era. The titles should hold more sway than just a pure comparison of BA's.
 

Husky25

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#22
I'm a Sox fan and I wouldn't Yaz in the 2nd group. Still, it's disingenuous to not mention his 3 batting titles (just missing a fourth by .0003). Also, Yaz' prime coincided with a pitcher-dominant era. The titles should hold more sway than just a pure comparison of BA's.
My rankings, my criteria (One that is buried is 94.6% of the BBWAA vote on 1st ballot). But shouldn't that make it more interesting? It adds another layer to the discussion. Just have a defensible position.

I'm almost embarrassed I had to point out the above.
 
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Dove

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#23
I look at Yaz's stat lines and I keep staring at the K/BB. That guy rarely struck out.

I also can't stop staring at the three playoff appearances. Just three?

His best years were way before my time so I can't argue his case based on stats. But the career numbers, to me, look like lower level HOF numbers.
 
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#24
Rivera was, and now is, a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. No doubt. Should he be unanimous? Why not? He was a transcendent pitcher. In fact, I'll go the other way. There should be MORE unanimous HOFers. The only reason there is not are "old school" writers who colluded that no one would be. They mostly seem to be gone. from the voting.

Edgar Martinez getting in, coupled with Clemens and Bonds getting more than a 70% share, clears the way for Ortiz. Maybe not on the 1st ballot, but he will get there.

I subscribe to the Bill Simmons theory of Hall of Fame induction. There should be a set amount of space for plaques and a criteria for voting someone into the Hall of Fame should also include who they should replace. Further, there should be a tiered pyramid (of sorts) to the HoF. The top would be reserved for the truly transcendent. The legendary. I.e. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, Cy Young, Jackie Robinson, Sandy Koufax, Nolan Ryan, Roberto Clemente (Mariano Rivera?), Joe Dimaggio, Walter Johnson,

The second tier would obviously be the next rung down. Ken Griffey Jr., Tom Seaver, Yaz, Rickey Henderson, Mathewson, Pedro Martinez, maybe Randy Johnson. Mickey Mantle, Berra, Stan Musial, Josh Gibson, Buck O'Neill

The Third level would include the rest of the players, as Storrsroars puts it, you would buy a ticket for. They would Definitely include Johnson, Ozzie Smith, Vlad Guererro, Willie McCovey, Don Drysdale.

The Fourth Level are those who you may not buy a ticket for, but who would be let's say appointment TV

The fifth are Hall of Famers in name only. The compilers (Though I maintain that staying healthy and playing 150 games for 15 years is as much a skill as hitting 500 HRs.). Those that got in because they are friends with other HoFers. Those that get in after their 11th year of eligibility. Those that are voted in by the Veterans Committee.

Players in levels 4 and 5 would be susceptible to relegation to the Hall of Very Good in neighboring Gilbertsville.
You clearly know your baseball and I agree with pretty much everything but I agree with the other guys Yaz and Mantle shouldn't be grouped in together. Yaz can possibly be a second tier, seems like pushing it but Mantle is a first tier guy.

Yaz is obviously better than Harold Baines. It's a joke Baines made the Hall and that's coming from someone who really likes him.
 
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#25
I look at Yaz's stat lines and I keep staring at the K/BB. That guy rarely struck out.

I also can't stop staring at the three playoff appearances. Just three?

His best years were way before my time so I can't argue his case based on stats. But the career numbers, to me, look like lower level HOF numbers.
Dimaggio struck out 13 times in an entire healthy season and had 8 more strikeouts than career homers. That blows my mind whenever I see it.
 

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