OT: Isaiah Thomas | Page 3 | The Boneyard

OT: Isaiah Thomas

NielsisGood said:
He gets the appropriate amount of pub and a well deserved max deal. He's not better than IT this season though. There's literally 0 metric that supports the case for Conley over IT, and a simple eye test confirms that IT has more impact on a game than Conley does.
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Rarely ever hear his name in general NBA talk. I don't know the Metrics, but I know Conley is a waaaay better defender than IT, so that supports it.IT is really a one way player. As mentioned, he's a liability on D.

Conley is one of the best all around complete PGs in the league. In terms of being a complete guard, how many better ones are there? Chris Paul and Westbrook. I don't know if Westbrook's outside shot is as good, and his D can be inconsistent (no surprise given workload--actually Conley suffered from this a little this year). Lillard's in the conversation. Harden's D is meh. Kyrie is not an elite defender. I mean, I'm not the expert, but I'm looking at all around player.
 
JSM1970 said:
The original post said he was a top 10 player in the league and top 5 guard (1 & 2)

He's not even a top 5 PG let alone all guards
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This year he is, absolutely. People are on him because of his defensive shortcomings...in the NBA? Do you guys watch the games?
 
nycscooby said:
This year he is, absolutely. People are on him because of his defensive shortcomings...in the NBA? Do you guys watch the games?
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Are you implying there is no defense in the NBA?

I hope not. Because you'd be wrong, and the myriad of people who suggest that are wrong.

NBA defense is incredibly complicated. Ask Andre Drummond. Just the communication is otherwordly. Players have to communicate different angles for screens, prep for how they're going to react to it depending on who has the ball and who is setting the screen. Their footwork is practiced to within 10 degrees. The games are played SO FAST, man. If you've ever been on the floor of an NBA game and heard the way good teams communicate and react on defense, you'd be amazed.

The reason why it looks lazy is because 1) they are so fluid and fast it doesn't look like they're trying and 2) the offensive players are that talented.

You are watching post-season defense here, man. Anyone who says they aren't freakishly talented defenders on the floor are kidding themselves.
 
Dream Jobbed 2.0 said:
The "no one plays defense on the NBA" trope is one of the most uninformed most infuriating things in all of sports possibly the world.
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Should probably be changed to "the average person has difficulty picking up on the defense being played in the NBA"
 
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intlzncster said:
Should probably be changed to "the average person has difficulty picking up on the defense being played in the NBA"
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Yes! Because it is so much more complex and the players are so much more athletic than your casual fan can understand
 
intlzncster said:
Rarely ever hear his name in general NBA talk. I don't know the Metrics, but I know Conley is a waaaay better defender than IT, so that supports it.IT is really a one way player. As mentioned, he's a liability on D.

Conley is one of the best all around complete PGs in the league. In terms of being a complete guard, how many better ones are there? Chris Paul and Westbrook. I don't know if Westbrook's outside shot is as good, and his D can be inconsistent (no surprise given workload--actually Conley suffered from this a little this year). Lillard's in the conversation. Harden's D is meh. Kyrie is not an elite defender. I mean, I'm not the expert, but I'm looking at all around player.
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Are you under the impression that Conley is a consistent 25-9 type of guy or something? This is Conley's first season of even being a 20 PPG scorer, and he's definitely slipped defensively over the past couple seasons. Stats like PER, Win Shares, TS% all support IT>Conley as well. IT is also likely to be 2nd team all NBA, which is something that Conley will never come close to accomplishing.


Then again, you also think Conley is better than James Harden. Totally unreasonable.
 
Conley is a very good guard BUT he hasn't been consistent in an terms near IT
Both are not good defenders but Conley may have the edge there. IT blows him away as far as scoring is concerned
Two years ago I would say that Conley was a better long ball shooter but IT has improved so much and Conley cannot create the moves and drives that IT possesses
The past two years - not really not close - it's IT
Has Conley ever been all NBA player?
Who is more important to their team?

There was mention somewhere about Harden - I am not a Harden fan at all but the guy knows how and when to get his teammates involved and he can be a scoring machine - his D is good. The thing that bugs me is his whining about being fouled but not as bad as LeBron. Harden is the real deal and is in the top 5 guards.
 
intlzncster said:
Perhaps? Probably 100% chance it effected him significantly.

It was a matter of days man. He was very close to her. And he couldn't even see the rest of his family before the series.
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I'm a little uncomfortable with the way we portray this sort of thing in general. If Isaiah would have sat out the rest of the postseason after his sister's death, I would have absolutely supported that. And there is certainly a good chance - not sure I'd say 100% - that her death had a negative effect on his play. But if we're going to make this out to be some act of heroism (which I wouldn't, just because I think it sets a dangerous precedent), then I don't know how you can at the same time grade him on a scale for his performance in those games.

I would imagine it is possible for something tragic to have the opposite effect on performance in that it alleviates you of the nerves that typically accompany high stakes basketball games and allows you to become more zoomed in. It's just a difficult variable to account for so I almost feel it's better to not try.

Mr. French said:
Not only that, but he was putting up 30+ so I don't know about "outlier" and "fairly ordinary."

I don't think there's any question his size and his relative outta nowhere rise has lead to a psychological lack of trust in his ability from fans.

Not saying he's a perfect player or he doesn't have some issues, but if a guy who was destined to stardom, i.e. John Wall, did what IT has done for 3-4 years, especially this year, you wouldn't be hearing this type of rhetoric.

Just my opinion, of course. It's human nature.
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Yeah, he was very ordinary in the Chicago series. Again, could have been that his sister's death had something to do with it. Could have also been that playoff basketball is hard and it was a tough match up. There is a lot going on with Isaiah and so valuing him as a player is difficult. I think that's fair to say. We still don't really know what we have with him.

Certainly it's possible that on some subconscious level his draft position could be contributing to my skepticism, but there's also data out there to suggest that he is one of the very worst defensive players in the league. A lot of the best NBA guys still had him behind guys like Lowry when both were healthy during the season and moving forward there is still a lot of work to be done in regards to sifting through all of the quantitative and qualitative information, both with regards to Isaiah specifically and how he fits into the climate of the current league at large. He's a fascinating talent and he does things with the ball in his hands that are rare, but I'm still taking the wait-and-see approach.
 
champs99and04 said:
I'm a little uncomfortable with the way we portray this sort of thing in general. If Isaiah would have sat out the rest of the postseason after his sister's death, I would have absolutely supported that. And there is certainly a good chance - not sure I'd say 100% - that her death had a negative effect on his play. But if we're going to make this out to be some act of heroism (which I wouldn't, just because I think it sets a dangerous precedent), then I don't know how you can at the same time grade him on a scale for his performance in those games.

I would imagine it is possible for something tragic to have the opposite effect on performance in that it alleviates you of the nerves that typically accompany high stakes basketball games and allows you to become more zoomed in. It's just a difficult variable to account for so I almost feel it's better to not try.



Yeah, he was very ordinary in the Chicago series. Again, could have been that his sister's death had something to do with it. Could have also been that playoff basketball is hard and it was a tough match up. There is a lot going on with Isaiah and so valuing him as a player is difficult. I think that's fair to say. We still don't really know what we have with him.

Certainly it's possible that on some subconscious level his draft position could be contributing to my skepticism, but there's also data out there to suggest that he is one of the very worst defensive players in the league. A lot of the best NBA guys still had him behind guys like Lowry when both were healthy during the season and moving forward there is still a lot of work to be done in regards to sifting through all of the quantitative and qualitative information, both with regards to Isaiah specifically and how he fits into the climate of the current league at large. He's a fascinating talent and he does things with the ball in his hands that are rare, but I'm still taking the wait-and-see approach.
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I wasn't claiming it was an act of heroism, just that losing someone close like that changes you instantly. In that sense, it affects you. It saps your energy and focus in everything. That said, it could have elevated his play. I just think, in watching the games, IT didn't appear to be 'all there'.
 
gtcam said:
Conley is a very good guard BUT he hasn't been consistent in an terms near IT
Both are not good defenders but Conley may have the edge there. IT blows him away as far as scoring is concerned
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Conley's a great defender. He slipped this year in shouldering more of the scoring load though.
 
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NielsisGood said:
Then again, you also think Conley is better than James Harden. Totally unreasonable.
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Now you are putting words in my mouth. That's not the argument I was making. I certainly wasn't claiming he was better overall player than Harden. I was just talking about being a complete player. You can't tell me Harden is a top shelf defensive point guard.
 
intlzncster said:
Now you are putting words in my mouth. That's not the argument I was making. I certainly wasn't claiming he was better overall player than Harden. I was just talking about being a complete player. You can't tell me Harden is a top shelf defensive point guard.
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Harden doesn't need to be top shelf defensively when he's putting up 29-8-11 on a team with no other stars. Conley hasn't been top shelf defensively for a couple years either.

intlzncster said:
Conley is one of the best all around complete PGs in the league. In terms of being a complete guard, how many better ones are there? Chris Paul and Westbrook. I don't know if Westbrook's outside shot is as good, and his D can be inconsistent (no surprise given workload--actually Conley suffered from this a little this year). Lillard's in the conversation. Harden's D is meh. Kyrie is not an elite defender. I mean, I'm not the expert, but I'm looking at all around player.
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Not sure what you mean here by "all-around" if you're not trying to claim Conley is the 3rd best guard in the NBA. This statement is all over the place, you're harping on Harden for not being great defensively while ignoring the ridiculous amount he contributes offensively, but then go on to claim that Lillard is in the discussion when he's horrible defensively and not an efficient shooter either. Either way, in terms of being a "complete guard", Conley lags pretty far behind any of these guys offensively.
 
husky429 said:
Yes! Because it is so much more complex and the players are so much more athletic than your casual fan can understand
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Please 429 it's not complex it's just not always there. There are guys who play it every play from the tip, there are guys who play it when they feel like it, there are guys who play it in the playoffs. It's not a constant for sure, but they can play it better than anyone when they want to. Different intensities from regular season to the playoffs.

Having said that there's no doubt Thomas, while a pain sometime on defense, hurts the C's vs almost anyone. But on offense when he has it going there are few who can guard him.
 
intlzncster said:
I wasn't claiming it was an act of heroism, just that losing someone close like that changes you instantly. In that sense, it affects you. It saps your energy and focus in everything. That said, it could have elevated his play. I just think, in watching the games, IT didn't appear to be 'all there'.
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Oh I know, I would likely be down for the count for far less. It's just a difficult thing to quantify, is all.
 
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Kemba went ahead of Klay and Kawhi.

This was a great draft though, arguably 5 of the top 20-25 players in the league with Kyrie, Klay, Kawhi, Butler and IT


HooperScooper said:
This is an article about the 59 players drafted ahead of Thomas and where they are currently. Going through the list was interesting. Lots of familiar names. Very familiar name at number 58. Oh yeah and that guy at number 9 is pretty good.

What happened to all 59 players drafted before Isaiah Thomas in 2011
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Is Majoks write-up accurate?

"This 6-10 South Sudanese-born Australian averaged 2.3 points in one season at UConn, then played in Turkey and Australia before the Lakers drafted him at No. 58."

Didn't he get drafted straight out of Uconn?

Ill never forget that night. I didn't watch the draft at all, turned it on at the very end, and was in another room when I heard, "with the 58th pick the Los Angeles Lakers select Ater Majok, Connecticut". Sprinted to the tv in disbelief and had to call my dad to tell him the crazy news.
 
HuskiesAllDay said:
Is Majoks write-up accurate?

"This 6-10 South Sudanese-born Australian averaged 2.3 points in one season at UConn, then played in Turkey and Australia before the Lakers drafted him at No. 58."

Didn't he get drafted straight out of UConn?

Ill never forget that night. I didn't watch the draft at all, turned it on at the very end, and was in another room when I heard, "with the 58th pick the Los Angeles Lakers select Ater Majok, Connecticut". Sprinted to the tv in disbelief and had to call my dad to tell him the crazy news.
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Yeah there was a gap in between. Remember he left the offseason before the title.
 
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