OT: Isaiah Thomas

[intlzncster]

Lillard and Conley are both better than IT.

Conley is the most underrated elite guard in the league. Guy does everything. Probably because he's quiet and not demonstrative at all....and plays in Memphis.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I don't think it's as simple as everyone is making it out ... If he's your best scorer and you add another guy with the pieces they have, that's a championship team.
If a guy who scores at top 5 levels is that easy to replace and duplicate, then I guess I've been watching the wrong sport. He isn't getting empty stats, he's a stud.

Its funny how no one gives a rat's arse about defensive indifference of John Wall, James Harden, Blake Griffin, Carmelo Anthony, etc.. but b/c Isaiah is 5'9" and new to the party he's not yet earned the carte blanche regarding officiating and resting on D that vast majority of NBA superstars get. I've been a doubter too and have converted. If whoever wins the matchup between Isaiah and John Wall wins the series I like the Celtics chances*. But I'm not counting on that and instead hoping Tuesday repeats and the Celtics relative bench strength has the Wiz starters worn down come late game situations.

*That said even among the converted were I GM I would trade Isaiah for John Wall, paradoxically of course I would not trade Isaiah for John Wall in this series.

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

A lineup of

Fultz
Bradley
Hayward
AL
Zizic

With other depth Brown, Rozier, Nader, French Draymond and other pieces

Can challenge for 'Ships in 2-3+ years

They will have to part with pieces maybe like Smart, Kelly O, Jae

And the one thing that could be just crazy, assuming the Nets suck again next year we could be starring @ Porter, Ayton, Bamba, etc.

It's insane what Danny Ainge did to Brooklyn. Unreal. Or rather, should I say, what the Nets did to themselves...
The Nets are NOT going to be any better next year. No assets, no draft picks, no appeal in free agency. You have to pity Nets fans.

I'll be sold on Zizic and Yabusele once they play real NBA basketball, usually stats overseas and in the D-league can be deceiving. Sometimes it works, most of the time it doesn't. But these guys, fortunately, look very legit.

The fact that the Celtics already have a core that can win the 1 seed in the east, along with another potential core for the future (Brown, the next couple Nets picks, Zizic, Yabusele), AND cap space to be a VERY appealing destination in free agency, is insane. At some point in the next couple years, they simply will have too much and will have to either let people go or move pieces unfortunately.

 

[Nebraskan18]

Just guards, top 5?

Who would you take/replace to put him in top 5?

Lowry
Derozan
Dame Dolla
CP3
Booker
Harden
Kyrie
Russ
Steph
Klay
Wall
Beal
Conley

And leaving a few guys off who could be in the discussion

I love him, but he's nowehrre near a top 10 guard. Huge defensive liability and one dimples

You dont think Isaiah Thomas is a top 1o guard in the league? Third in the NBA in scoring with no one to create for him. Lead the Celtics to the #1 seed in the East over the Cavs, when the Celtics don't have another all-star on the team, or one thats really even close. Two nights ago, Isaiah had 53 points while being guarded by John Wall, Bradley Beal, and Kelly Oubre. The only guards better than Isaiah on this list are Steph, Russ, Kyrie, and Harden.

 

[intlzncster]

I'm trying not to overreact to last night. Up until that explosion he had been fairly ordinary in the playoffs (perhaps his sister's passing had something to do with that). It remains to be seen whether last night was an outlier.

Perhaps? Probably 100% chance it effected him significantly.

It was a matter of days man. He was very close to her. And he couldn't even see the rest of his family before the series.

 

[intlzncster]

You dont think Isaiah Thomas is a top 1o guard in the league? Third in the NBA in scoring with no one to create for him. Lead the Celtics to the #1 seed in the East over the Cavs, when the Celtics don't have another all-star on the team, or one thats really even close. Two nights ago, Isaiah had 53 points while being guarded by John Wall, Bradley Beal, and Kelly Oubre. The only guards better than Isaiah on this list are Steph, Russ, Kyrie, and Harden.

Conley is better than IT. It's scary how little pub he gets. He's the most complete guard of the group. He has no real weakness, unlike all the other guys.

 

[Mr. French]

Perhaps? Probably 100% chance it effected him significantly.

It was a matter of days man. He was very close to her. And he couldn't even see the rest of his family before the series.

Not only that, but he was putting up 30+ so I don't know about "outlier" and "fairly ordinary."

I don't think there's any question his size and his relative outta nowhere rise has lead to a psychological lack of trust in his ability from fans.

Not saying he's a perfect player or he doesn't have some issues, but if a guy who was destined to stardom, i.e. John Wall, did what IT has done for 3-4 years, especially this year, you wouldn't be hearing this type of rhetoric.

Just my opinion, of course. It's human nature.

 

[intlzncster]

I don't think it's as simple as everyone is making it out ... If he's your best scorer and you add another guy with the pieces they have, that's a championship team.

If a guy who scores at top 5 levels is that easy to replace and duplicate, then I guess I've been watching the wrong sport.

He isn't getting empty stats, he's a stud.

Not only that, he's clutch as balls. As I mentioned above, the guy DOMINATES the 4th quarter. And in the postseason on top of that. That's huge.

 

[intlzncster]

Not only that, but he was putting up 30+ so I don't know about "outlier" and "fairly ordinary."

I don't think there's any question his size and his relative outta nowhere rise has lead to a psychological lack of trust in his ability from fans.

Not saying he's a perfect player or he doesn't have some issues, but if a guy who was destined to stardom, i.e. John Wall, did what IT has done for 3-4 years, especially this year, you wouldn't be hearing this type of rhetoric.

Just my opinion, of course. It's human nature.

Yah, despite how we talk about pro athletes, these guys aren't computers.

 

[NielsisGood]

Conley is better than IT. It's scary how little pub he gets. He's the most complete guard of the group. He has no real weakness, unlike all the other guys.

He gets the appropriate amount of pub and a well deserved max deal. He's not better than IT this season though. There's literally 0 metric that supports the case for Conley over IT, and a simple eye test confirms that IT has more impact on a game than Conley does.

 

[MadDogRevival]

nba.com is one of the worst websites I have been to in the last 12 months. Just awful.

 

[intlzncster]

He gets the appropriate amount of pub and a well deserved max deal. He's not better than IT this season though. There's literally 0 metric that supports the case for Conley over IT, and a simple eye test confirms that IT has more impact on a game than Conley does.

Rarely ever hear his name in general NBA talk. I don't know the Metrics, but I know Conley is a waaaay better defender than IT, so that supports it.IT is really a one way player. As mentioned, he's a liability on D.

Conley is one of the best all around complete PGs in the league. In terms of being a complete guard, how many better ones are there? Chris Paul and Westbrook. I don't know if Westbrook's outside shot is as good, and his D can be inconsistent (no surprise given workload--actually Conley suffered from this a little this year). Lillard's in the conversation. Harden's D is meh. Kyrie is not an elite defender. I mean, I'm not the expert, but I'm looking at all around player.

 

[nycscooby]

The original post said he was a top 10 player in the league and top 5 guard (1 & 2)

He's not even a top 5 PG let alone all guards

This year he is, absolutely. People are on him because of his defensive shortcomings...in the NBA? Do you guys watch the games?

 

[husky429]

This year he is, absolutely. People are on him because of his defensive shortcomings...in the NBA? Do you guys watch the games?

Are you implying there is no defense in the NBA?

I hope not. Because you'd be wrong, and the myriad of people who suggest that are wrong.

NBA defense is incredibly complicated. Ask Andre Drummond. Just the communication is otherwordly. Players have to communicate different angles for screens, prep for how they're going to react to it depending on who has the ball and who is setting the screen. Their footwork is practiced to within 10 degrees. The games are played SO FAST, man. If you've ever been on the floor of an NBA game and heard the way good teams communicate and react on defense, you'd be amazed.

The reason why it looks lazy is because 1) they are so fluid and fast it doesn't look like they're trying and 2) the offensive players are that talented.

You are watching post-season defense here, man. Anyone who says they aren't freakishly talented defenders on the floor are kidding themselves.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

The "no one plays defense on the NBA" trope is one of the most uninformed most infuriating things in all of sports possibly the world.

 

[intlzncster]

The "no one plays defense on the NBA" trope is one of the most uninformed most infuriating things in all of sports possibly the world.

Should probably be changed to "the average person has difficulty picking up on the defense being played in the NBA"

 

[husky429]

Should probably be changed to "the average person has difficulty picking up on the defense being played in the NBA"

Yes! Because it is so much more complex and the players are so much more athletic than your casual fan can understand

 

[NielsisGood]

Rarely ever hear his name in general NBA talk. I don't know the Metrics, but I know Conley is a waaaay better defender than IT, so that supports it.IT is really a one way player. As mentioned, he's a liability on D.

Conley is one of the best all around complete PGs in the league. In terms of being a complete guard, how many better ones are there? Chris Paul and Westbrook. I don't know if Westbrook's outside shot is as good, and his D can be inconsistent (no surprise given workload--actually Conley suffered from this a little this year). Lillard's in the conversation. Harden's D is meh. Kyrie is not an elite defender. I mean, I'm not the expert, but I'm looking at all around player.

Are you under the impression that Conley is a consistent 25-9 type of guy or something? This is Conley's first season of even being a 20 PPG scorer, and he's definitely slipped defensively over the past couple seasons. Stats like PER, Win Shares, TS% all support IT>Conley as well. IT is also likely to be 2nd team all NBA, which is something that Conley will never come close to accomplishing.


Then again, you also think Conley is better than James Harden. Totally unreasonable.

 

[gtcam]

Conley is a very good guard BUT he hasn't been consistent in an terms near IT
Both are not good defenders but Conley may have the edge there. IT blows him away as far as scoring is concerned
Two years ago I would say that Conley was a better long ball shooter but IT has improved so much and Conley cannot create the moves and drives that IT possesses
The past two years - not really not close - it's IT
Has Conley ever been all NBA player?
Who is more important to their team?

There was mention somewhere about Harden - I am not a Harden fan at all but the guy knows how and when to get his teammates involved and he can be a scoring machine - his D is good. The thing that bugs me is his whining about being fouled but not as bad as LeBron. Harden is the real deal and is in the top 5 guards.

 

[champs99and04]

Perhaps? Probably 100% chance it effected him significantly.

It was a matter of days man. He was very close to her. And he couldn't even see the rest of his family before the series.

I'm a little uncomfortable with the way we portray this sort of thing in general. If Isaiah would have sat out the rest of the postseason after his sister's death, I would have absolutely supported that. And there is certainly a good chance - not sure I'd say 100% - that her death had a negative effect on his play. But if we're going to make this out to be some act of heroism (which I wouldn't, just because I think it sets a dangerous precedent), then I don't know how you can at the same time grade him on a scale for his performance in those games.

I would imagine it is possible for something tragic to have the opposite effect on performance in that it alleviates you of the nerves that typically accompany high stakes basketball games and allows you to become more zoomed in. It's just a difficult variable to account for so I almost feel it's better to not try.

Not only that, but he was putting up 30+ so I don't know about "outlier" and "fairly ordinary."

I don't think there's any question his size and his relative outta nowhere rise has lead to a psychological lack of trust in his ability from fans.

Not saying he's a perfect player or he doesn't have some issues, but if a guy who was destined to stardom, i.e. John Wall, did what IT has done for 3-4 years, especially this year, you wouldn't be hearing this type of rhetoric.

Just my opinion, of course. It's human nature.

Yeah, he was very ordinary in the Chicago series. Again, could have been that his sister's death had something to do with it. Could have also been that playoff basketball is hard and it was a tough match up. There is a lot going on with Isaiah and so valuing him as a player is difficult. I think that's fair to say. We still don't really know what we have with him.

Certainly it's possible that on some subconscious level his draft position could be contributing to my skepticism, but there's also data out there to suggest that he is one of the very worst defensive players in the league. A lot of the best NBA guys still had him behind guys like Lowry when both were healthy during the season and moving forward there is still a lot of work to be done in regards to sifting through all of the quantitative and qualitative information, both with regards to Isaiah specifically and how he fits into the climate of the current league at large. He's a fascinating talent and he does things with the ball in his hands that are rare, but I'm still taking the wait-and-see approach.

 

[intlzncster]

I'm a little uncomfortable with the way we portray this sort of thing in general. If Isaiah would have sat out the rest of the postseason after his sister's death, I would have absolutely supported that. And there is certainly a good chance - not sure I'd say 100% - that her death had a negative effect on his play. But if we're going to make this out to be some act of heroism (which I wouldn't, just because I think it sets a dangerous precedent), then I don't know how you can at the same time grade him on a scale for his performance in those games.

I would imagine it is possible for something tragic to have the opposite effect on performance in that it alleviates you of the nerves that typically accompany high stakes basketball games and allows you to become more zoomed in. It's just a difficult variable to account for so I almost feel it's better to not try.



Yeah, he was very ordinary in the Chicago series. Again, could have been that his sister's death had something to do with it. Could have also been that playoff basketball is hard and it was a tough match up. There is a lot going on with Isaiah and so valuing him as a player is difficult. I think that's fair to say. We still don't really know what we have with him.

Certainly it's possible that on some subconscious level his draft position could be contributing to my skepticism, but there's also data out there to suggest that he is one of the very worst defensive players in the league. A lot of the best NBA guys still had him behind guys like Lowry when both were healthy during the season and moving forward there is still a lot of work to be done in regards to sifting through all of the quantitative and qualitative information, both with regards to Isaiah specifically and how he fits into the climate of the current league at large. He's a fascinating talent and he does things with the ball in his hands that are rare, but I'm still taking the wait-and-see approach.

I wasn't claiming it was an act of heroism, just that losing someone close like that changes you instantly. In that sense, it affects you. It saps your energy and focus in everything. That said, it could have elevated his play. I just think, in watching the games, IT didn't appear to be 'all there'.

 

[intlzncster]

Conley is a very good guard BUT he hasn't been consistent in an terms near IT
Both are not good defenders but Conley may have the edge there. IT blows him away as far as scoring is concerned

Conley's a great defender. He slipped this year in shouldering more of the scoring load though.

 

[intlzncster]

Then again, you also think Conley is better than James Harden. Totally unreasonable.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. That's not the argument I was making. I certainly wasn't claiming he was better overall player than Harden. I was just talking about being a complete player. You can't tell me Harden is a top shelf defensive point guard.

 

[NielsisGood]

Now you are putting words in my mouth. That's not the argument I was making. I certainly wasn't claiming he was better overall player than Harden. I was just talking about being a complete player. You can't tell me Harden is a top shelf defensive point guard.

Harden doesn't need to be top shelf defensively when he's putting up 29-8-11 on a team with no other stars. Conley hasn't been top shelf defensively for a couple years either.

Conley is one of the best all around complete PGs in the league. In terms of being a complete guard, how many better ones are there? Chris Paul and Westbrook. I don't know if Westbrook's outside shot is as good, and his D can be inconsistent (no surprise given workload--actually Conley suffered from this a little this year). Lillard's in the conversation. Harden's D is meh. Kyrie is not an elite defender. I mean, I'm not the expert, but I'm looking at all around player.

Not sure what you mean here by "all-around" if you're not trying to claim Conley is the 3rd best guard in the NBA. This statement is all over the place, you're harping on Harden for not being great defensively while ignoring the ridiculous amount he contributes offensively, but then go on to claim that Lillard is in the discussion when he's horrible defensively and not an efficient shooter either. Either way, in terms of being a "complete guard", Conley lags pretty far behind any of these guys offensively.

 

[mauconnfan]

Yes! Because it is so much more complex and the players are so much more athletic than your casual fan can understand

Please 429 it's not complex it's just not always there. There are guys who play it every play from the tip, there are guys who play it when they feel like it, there are guys who play it in the playoffs. It's not a constant for sure, but they can play it better than anyone when they want to. Different intensities from regular season to the playoffs.

Having said that there's no doubt Thomas, while a pain sometime on defense, hurts the C's vs almost anyone. But on offense when he has it going there are few who can guard him.