OT: Isaiah Thomas

[champs99and04]

He's a completely different level athlete than Bazz, obviously. Not just quickness but strength. Isaiah is built like a truck - he would have been a hell of a running back in a different world. It probably doesn't hurt that he's a south paw.

I'm trying not to overreact to last night. Up until that explosion he had been fairly ordinary in the playoffs (perhaps his sister's passing had something to do with that). It remains to be seen whether last night was an outlier.

I thought he actually held up pretty well defensively last night. But there is a big difference between 5'9 and 6'4 when you get later into the playoffs and positionless basketball starts to be come more prevalent. I'm not sure what Washington was doing last night was the way you go about defending him. I think you have a better chance of bottling him up by switching 1-4 with Oubre and Porter at the forward spots rather than Morris.

It shouldn't be lost that Boston's other guards are tremendous defensively. Smart, Rozier, and Bradley's compete on that end is next level. But I keep flashing back to what OKC looked like games 3 and 4 against Golden State next year and it's impossible to shake that image. It was like they were from 2075 with their size and length. I just hope what this Boston team is doing can still be appreciated even if they never win a title with this roster, because it's a pretty ballsy group.

 

[NielsisGood]

I think you are misunderstanding the situation.
No one WANTS him traded. But it's either we trade him and get a return, or let him walk after his contract runs out next year, because he's going to demand a max contract. He's already said that. And I would think most people agree that a player who can only play one side of the court, as good as he is, is not worth 30 million dollars a year.
All I'm saying the Celtics have serious decisions to make, ESPECIALLY if they get a potentially franchise point guard in Lonzo Ball or Markelle Fultz.
When you look at it that way, it's not baffling.
Isaiah Thomas is one of the best scorers in the league, and what he did last night was historic. But if he's your best player, you're not winning an NBA championship anytime soon.

Not sure why you keep name dropping Ball alongside Fultz as if the 2 are even remotely comparable. Celts would be better off getting Jackson or Tatum if they can't get Fultz.


Also, there's not a single person that believes Isaiah can be the best player on a title team, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be the #2 guy on a title team provided he can sustain a reasonable facsimile of his 2016-17 production for a few more seasons.

Agreed. IT is probably the tenth best point guard in the league.

Name 9 that are better. Hint: Neither Lillard nor Conley have ever had the type of volume + efficiency season that Isaiah has had this year. Neither of those 2 will ever have a peak season as good as Isaiah has been this season.

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

Not sure why you keep name dropping Ball alongside Fultz as if the 2 are even remotely comparable. Celts would be better off getting Jackson or Tatum if they can't get Fultz.


Also, there's not a single person that believes Isaiah can be the best player on a title team, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be the #2 guy on a title team provided he can sustain a reasonable facsimile of his 2016-17 production for a few more seasons.



Name 9 that are better. Hint: Neither Lillard nor Conley have ever had the type of volume + efficiency season that Isaiah has had this year. Neither of those 2 will ever have a peak season as good as Isaiah has been this season.

Ball looks legit from what I've seen, and from what I've read many people agree that he has the potential to be a great player in the league. I'd take my chances on him over Jackson and Tatum (although I really like Jackson too). The only holdback to Ball for me would be Lavar-- I don't think anyone in the league really wants to deal with that guy, not that he would really have any impact on much of anything, but he's still baggage...

Yes Isaiah could be one of the top 3 players on a title team. Again, he is only under contract through next season. After that he is going to want one of those colossal 5 year $150 million deal which would be a huge mistake on the Celtics part for a 30-year old point guard who can't play defense. Ideally we have him in Boston until the end of his career, but the money likely won't work out that way.

I named who I would take over Isaiah earlier in the thread. There are six that I would rather build my team around than Isaiah-- Russ, CP3, Steph, Wall, Kyrie, Lowry.
You have to take into account their entire game including both sides of the ball. So Isaiah is somewhere between 7-10.

 

[uconnbill]

Haters going to hate.
He doesn't play good defense but then again I know a number of players in the NBA who don't either and all of them can't score like he does.

 

[NielsisGood]

Ball looks legit from what I've seen, and from what I've read many people agree that he has the potential to be a great player in the league. I'd take my chances on him over Jackson and Tatum (although I really like Jackson too). The only holdback to Ball for me would be Lavar-- I don't think anyone in the league really wants to deal with that guy, not that he would really have any impact on much of anything, but he's still baggage...

Yes Isaiah could be one of the top 3 players on a title team. Again, he is only under contract through next season. After that he is going to want one of those colossal 5 year $150 million deal which would be a huge mistake on the Celtics part for a 30-year old point guard who can't play defense. Ideally we have him in Boston until the end of his career, but the money likely won't work out that way.

I named who I would take over Isaiah earlier in the thread. There are six that I would rather build my team around than Isaiah-- Russ, CP3, Steph, Wall, Kyrie, Lowry.
You have to take into account their entire game including both sides of the ball. So Isaiah is somewhere between 7-10.

I'm more concerned about Ball's defense and that awful shooting form (yes I know his %'s were great at UCLA) than the Lavar thing. Still, if the Celts didn't want to pay pennies on the dollar for Boogie due to character issues, I can't imagine they'll be chomping at the bit to be involved in the whole Lavar Ball experience. Also I personally like Tatum a bit more than Jackson, but would rather have either over Ball given the current roster makeup, Lonzo's defense/shooting form question marks, and Lavar.


Isaiah can be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a title team, you pretty much have to max a guy like that in the current climate. Are there other guys you'd rather give a max contract to? Sure, but you can't simply let a guy like that walk, or trade him for pennies on the dollar if you're trying to contend.


As far as the PGs you listed, I'd definitely agree on Russ, Steph, Wall, and Kyrie (even though Steph/Kyrie are defensive liabilities as well, and Kyrie is hardly even a true PG at this point). I would definitely take Isaiah over Lowry given the fact that Lowry is 3 years older and doesn't have a great injury history/history of efficiency. I'd have easily taken CP3 over IT4 about 2 years ago, but CP3 is pretty clearly past his prime at this point, and that complete dud of a game 7 and general inability to take his game to another level in the playoffs leaves me cold on him at this point. I think you can make a real argument for IT4 being the 5th best PG in the league currently.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Ya'll don't need to rank him vs other PGs or guards, officiate him or be the GM of the Celtics. Watch Isaiah play basketball, he will make incredible shots, get better in the 4thQ and takeover games offensively. He does so with joy and swagger. It is fun to watch.

 

[JSM1970]

I agree, if they can't get Fultz have to think about Jackson, Issac or even Markken.

But they would have a lot of players in the 3-4-5 with Crowder, Brown (who can play a lot of 2 also), French Draymond, Nader (who had a great D-league season), Al, Zizic, Kelly O, Zeller is still under contract next year.

And will they make a run @ either Blake (if he opts out) or Hayward?

Not sure why you keep name dropping Ball alongside Fultz as if the 2 are even remotely comparable. Celts would be better off getting Jackson or Tatum if they can't get Fultz.


Also, there's not a single person that believes Isaiah can be the best player on a title team, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be the #2 guy on a title team provided he can sustain a reasonable facsimile of his 2016-17 production for a few more seasons.



Name 9 that are better. Hint: Neither Lillard nor Conley have ever had the type of volume + efficiency season that Isaiah has had this year. Neither of those 2 will ever have a peak season as good as Isaiah has been this season.

 

[JSM1970]

The original post said he was a top 10 player in the league and top 5 guard (1 & 2)

He's not even a top 5 PG let alone all guards

Not sure why you keep name dropping Ball alongside Fultz as if the 2 are even remotely comparable. Celts would be better off getting Jackson or Tatum if they can't get Fultz.


Also, there's not a single person that believes Isaiah can be the best player on a title team, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be the #2 guy on a title team provided he can sustain a reasonable facsimile of his 2016-17 production for a few more seasons.



Name 9 that are better. Hint: Neither Lillard nor Conley have ever had the type of volume + efficiency season that Isaiah has had this year. Neither of those 2 will ever have a peak season as good as Isaiah has been this season.

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

I'm more concerned about Ball's defense and that awful shooting form (yes I know his %'s were great at UCLA) than the Lavar thing. Still, if the Celts didn't want to pay pennies on the dollar for Boogie due to character issues, I can't imagine they'll be chomping at the bit to be involved in the whole Lavar Ball experience. Also I personally like Tatum a bit more than Jackson, but would rather have either over Ball given the current roster makeup, Lonzo's defense/shooting form question marks, and Lavar.


Isaiah can be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a title team, you pretty much have to max a guy like that in the current climate. Are there other guys you'd rather give a max contract to? Sure, but you can't simply let a guy like that walk, or trade him for pennies on the dollar if you're trying to contend.


As far as the PGs you listed, I'd definitely agree on Russ, Steph, Wall, and Kyrie (even though Steph/Kyrie are defensive liabilities as well, and Kyrie is hardly even a true PG at this point). I would definitely take Isaiah over Lowry given the fact that Lowry is 3 years older and doesn't have a great injury history/history of efficiency. I'd have easily taken CP3 over IT4 about 2 years ago, but CP3 is pretty clearly past his prime at this point, and that complete dud of a game 7 and general inability to take his game to another level in the playoffs leaves me cold on him at this point. I think you can make a real argument for IT4 being the 5th best PG in the league currently.

The concern on Ball is fair, but I think his other skillsets far outweigh that. And it's not like he doesn't have a jump shot, no matter how unorthodox it is. The defense still has to respect it. I'm not saying he's Jason Kidd, but Kidd had a similar skill set coming into the league, and Ball is the size of a 2/3. And Kidd is one of the many players who developed a 3 pt shot over the course of his NBA career. Ball is young and raw, but he has an incredible feel for the game and passing/scoring ability. It's too bad there's a circus surrounding him.

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

I agree, if they can't get Fultz have to think about Jackson, Issac or even Markken.

But they would have a lot of players in the 3-4-5 with Crowder, Brown (who can play a lot of 2 also), French Draymond, Nader (who had a great D-league season), Al, Zizic, Kelly O, Zeller is still under contract next year.

And will they make a run @ either Blake (if he opts out) or Hayward?

I'm not sure Blake is worth it. He's kind of a one dimensional, pure power forward who gets injured every year. Celtics are all about positional versatility.

But I would definitely make a run at Hayward.

I remember someone a couple months ago on Felger and Mazz who claimed to have inside sources said that the Celtics will be all in on Hayward, and there's mutual interest. But I don't know, take it with a grain of salt because NBA rumors tend to be more off-the-wall than any other sport.

But it makes too much sense for it to happen-- The celtics need for scoring at the wing, the Butler connection with Stevens, the Celtics cap space, etc.

 

[NielsisGood]

I'm not sure Blake is worth it. He's kind of a one dimensional, pure power forward who gets injured every year. Celtics are all about positional versatility.

But I would definitely make a run at Hayward.

I remember someone a couple months ago on Felger and Mazz who claimed to have inside sources said that the Celtics will be all in on Hayward, and there's mutual interest. But I don't know, take it with a grain of salt because NBA rumors tend to be more off-the-wall than any other sport.

But it makes too much sense for it to happen-- The celtics need for scoring at the wing, the Butler connection with Stevens, the Celtics cap space, etc.

Blake would be a better fit for them. That 4 spot has been a gaping hole for the last few years, and Blake is both a great scorer and passer when healthy. Celts already have Crowder/Brown at the 3 as well as the possibility of adding Tatum/Jackson. There's definitely more risk there, but a healthy Blake is the better player and would be filling a need.

The concern on Ball is fair, but I think his other skillsets far outweigh that. And it's not like he doesn't have a jump shot, no matter how unorthodox it is. The defense still has to respect it. I'm not saying he's Jason Kidd, but Kidd had a similar skill set coming into the league, and Ball is the size of a 2/3. And Kidd is one of the many players who developed a 3 pt shot over the course of his NBA career. Ball is young and raw, but he has an incredible feel for the game and passing/scoring ability. It's too bad there's a circus surrounding him.

I'm remaining skeptical of his shooting form until he proves that he can make it work in the NBA. His defense is just awful at this point, no 2 ways about it. He's an amazing passer/facilitator, but there's really not a great history of those Stockton/Kidd/Nash/CP3 types of PGs being featured prominently on title winning teams.

 

[JSM1970]

A lineup of

Fultz
Bradley
Hayward
AL
Zizic

With other depth Brown, Rozier, Nader, French Draymond and other pieces

Can challenge for 'Ships in 2-3+ years

They will have to part with pieces maybe like Smart, Kelly O, Jae

And the one thing that could be just crazy, assuming the Nets suck again next year we could be starring @ Porter, Ayton, Bamba, etc.

I'm not sure Blake is worth it. He's kind of a one dimensional, pure power forward who gets injured every year. Celtics are all about positional versatility.

But I would definitely make a run at Hayward.

I remember someone a couple months ago on Felger and Mazz who claimed to have inside sources said that the Celtics will be all in on Hayward, and there's mutual interest. But I don't know, take it with a grain of salt because NBA rumors tend to be more off-the-wall than any other sport.

But it makes too much sense for it to happen-- The celtics need for scoring at the wing, the Butler connection with Stevens, the Celtics cap space, etc.

 

[FriarJ]

I personally think that Thomas is almost at an untouchable level when it comes to trades right now. If he leads this Celts team past Cleveland (big if) He will get his max contract.

 

[JSM1970]

Ainge and Wyc are in a very tough spot

He's a wildly popular player, but if you get a chance to get an elite potential PG like Fultz and build around him that is just smart business

I personally think that Thomas is almost at an untouchable level when it comes to trades right now. If he leads this Celts team past Cleveland (big if) He will get his max contract.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I personally think that Thomas is almost at an untouchable level when it comes to trades right now. If he leads this Celts team past Cleveland (big if) He will get his max contract.

That's right, big IF but even IF he leads the team into the conference finals & a competitive series there with a few more performances like Tuesday's Isaiah will have earned a max and a permanent place in Boston. He's the leader of the team and that means something that is tangible in terms of $ & contract length, especially if/when that leadership is happening in playoff performances & wins. That's what they pay them for!

That is also what so silly about the GM hot takes in this thread. Trade Isaiah b/c of a unknown draft pick (will be known far before any decision on Isaiah due) and speculation about who that pick is and nothing but guesswork about how good whomever they draft will be. Games = what happens tonight & this weekend in Washington is far more compelling.

 

[intlzncster]

I thought and said Isaiah simply could not continue to do what he did in the regular season once the playoffs came along. Given last night and what he's done thru some uniquely trying circumstances I could not have been more wrong. Maybe someone finds a way to stop him, but Isaiah's 16-2017 season thru the PLAYOFFS is every bit as amazing and as 'must see' as Curry's 2015-16 regular season was. Down 6 with 2:30 last night that game is OVER if Isaiah doesn't make a 3. Defenses have adjusted and Isaiah's getting rejected at the rim a lot more often in the playoffs, yet somehow, particularly in the 4th Q he's still finding a way to get it done. If you aren't watching this series you are missing some great offensive basketball.

It's not so much defenses adjusting imo. It's more that defenses in the playoffs are far better, both in talent and in effort, than in the regular season.

What Isaiah does in the 4th quarters of games is ridiculous.

4th quarter and Overtime:

• Thomas - 29pts
• Wall - 5pts

I know this is a few months old, but it's amazing:

Isaiah Thomas is the NBA’s best 4th-quarter scorer since …

 

[intlzncster]

I like the Celts and watching IT is a pleasure. This video about Hoiberg's complaints is pretty descriptive for what the NBA refs will allow you to get away with. I feel like it should serve as a handbook for guards who want to learn how to push the envelope on the rules. If you can get away with it at the college level I would love to see Jalen steal some of these hesitation moves.

Bazz and Boat did a lot of the same things at UCONN.

 

[FriarJ]

Ainge and Wyc are in a very tough spot

He's a wildly popular player, but if you get a chance to get an elite potential PG like Fultz and build around him that is just smart business

I have seen Fultz in person multiple times and he is a fantastic smart player with positional flexibility. However he is much more of a 2G unless he develops like Stef.

 

[Mr. French]

I think you are misunderstanding the situation.
No one WANTS him traded. But it's either we trade him and get a return, or let him walk after his contract runs out next year, because he's going to demand a max contract. He's already said that. And I would think most people agree that a player who can only play one side of the court, as good as he is, is not worth 30 million dollars a year.
All I'm saying the Celtics have serious decisions to make, ESPECIALLY if they get a potentially franchise point guard in Lonzo Ball or Markelle Fultz.
When you look at it that way, it's not baffling.
Isaiah Thomas is one of the best scorers in the league, and what he did last night was historic. But if he's your best player, you're not winning an NBA championship anytime soon.

I don't think it's as simple as everyone is making it out ... If he's your best scorer and you add another guy with the pieces they have, that's a championship team.

If a guy who scores at top 5 levels is that easy to replace and duplicate, then I guess I've been watching the wrong sport.

He isn't getting empty stats, he's a stud.

 

[intlzncster]

I'd say top 10 player and top 5 guard without question

Offensively, yes, but combined with that D, no. jmo tonight

 

[intlzncster]

Lillard and Conley are both better than IT.

Conley is the most underrated elite guard in the league. Guy does everything. Probably because he's quiet and not demonstrative at all....and plays in Memphis.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I don't think it's as simple as everyone is making it out ... If he's your best scorer and you add another guy with the pieces they have, that's a championship team.
If a guy who scores at top 5 levels is that easy to replace and duplicate, then I guess I've been watching the wrong sport. He isn't getting empty stats, he's a stud.

Its funny how no one gives a rat's arse about defensive indifference of John Wall, James Harden, Blake Griffin, Carmelo Anthony, etc.. but b/c Isaiah is 5'9" and new to the party he's not yet earned the carte blanche regarding officiating and resting on D that vast majority of NBA superstars get. I've been a doubter too and have converted. If whoever wins the matchup between Isaiah and John Wall wins the series I like the Celtics chances*. But I'm not counting on that and instead hoping Tuesday repeats and the Celtics relative bench strength has the Wiz starters worn down come late game situations.

*That said even among the converted were I GM I would trade Isaiah for John Wall, paradoxically of course I would not trade Isaiah for John Wall in this series.

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

A lineup of

Fultz
Bradley
Hayward
AL
Zizic

With other depth Brown, Rozier, Nader, French Draymond and other pieces

Can challenge for 'Ships in 2-3+ years

They will have to part with pieces maybe like Smart, Kelly O, Jae

And the one thing that could be just crazy, assuming the Nets suck again next year we could be starring @ Porter, Ayton, Bamba, etc.

It's insane what Danny Ainge did to Brooklyn. Unreal. Or rather, should I say, what the Nets did to themselves...
The Nets are NOT going to be any better next year. No assets, no draft picks, no appeal in free agency. You have to pity Nets fans.

I'll be sold on Zizic and Yabusele once they play real NBA basketball, usually stats overseas and in the D-league can be deceiving. Sometimes it works, most of the time it doesn't. But these guys, fortunately, look very legit.

The fact that the Celtics already have a core that can win the 1 seed in the east, along with another potential core for the future (Brown, the next couple Nets picks, Zizic, Yabusele), AND cap space to be a VERY appealing destination in free agency, is insane. At some point in the next couple years, they simply will have too much and will have to either let people go or move pieces unfortunately.

 

[Com'rGordon]

Just guards, top 5?

Who would you take/replace to put him in top 5?

Lowry
Derozan
Dame Dolla
CP3
Booker
Harden
Kyrie
Russ
Steph
Klay
Wall
Beal
Conley

And leaving a few guys off who could be in the discussion

I love him, but he's nowehrre near a top 10 guard. Huge defensive liability and one dimples

You dont think Isaiah Thomas is a top 1o guard in the league? Third in the NBA in scoring with no one to create for him. Lead the Celtics to the #1 seed in the East over the Cavs, when the Celtics don't have another all-star on the team, or one thats really even close. Two nights ago, Isaiah had 53 points while being guarded by John Wall, Bradley Beal, and Kelly Oubre. The only guards better than Isaiah on this list are Steph, Russ, Kyrie, and Harden.

 

[intlzncster]

I'm trying not to overreact to last night. Up until that explosion he had been fairly ordinary in the playoffs (perhaps his sister's passing had something to do with that). It remains to be seen whether last night was an outlier.

Perhaps? Probably 100% chance it effected him significantly.

It was a matter of days man. He was very close to her. And he couldn't even see the rest of his family before the series.

 

[intlzncster]

You dont think Isaiah Thomas is a top 1o guard in the league? Third in the NBA in scoring with no one to create for him. Lead the Celtics to the #1 seed in the East over the Cavs, when the Celtics don't have another all-star on the team, or one thats really even close. Two nights ago, Isaiah had 53 points while being guarded by John Wall, Bradley Beal, and Kelly Oubre. The only guards better than Isaiah on this list are Steph, Russ, Kyrie, and Harden.

Conley is better than IT. It's scary how little pub he gets. He's the most complete guard of the group. He has no real weakness, unlike all the other guys.

 

[Mr. French]

Perhaps? Probably 100% chance it effected him significantly.

It was a matter of days man. He was very close to her. And he couldn't even see the rest of his family before the series.

Not only that, but he was putting up 30+ so I don't know about "outlier" and "fairly ordinary."

I don't think there's any question his size and his relative outta nowhere rise has lead to a psychological lack of trust in his ability from fans.

Not saying he's a perfect player or he doesn't have some issues, but if a guy who was destined to stardom, i.e. John Wall, did what IT has done for 3-4 years, especially this year, you wouldn't be hearing this type of rhetoric.

Just my opinion, of course. It's human nature.

 

[intlzncster]

I don't think it's as simple as everyone is making it out ... If he's your best scorer and you add another guy with the pieces they have, that's a championship team.

If a guy who scores at top 5 levels is that easy to replace and duplicate, then I guess I've been watching the wrong sport.

He isn't getting empty stats, he's a stud.

Not only that, he's clutch as balls. As I mentioned above, the guy DOMINATES the 4th quarter. And in the postseason on top of that. That's huge.

 

[intlzncster]

Not only that, but he was putting up 30+ so I don't know about "outlier" and "fairly ordinary."

I don't think there's any question his size and his relative outta nowhere rise has lead to a psychological lack of trust in his ability from fans.

Not saying he's a perfect player or he doesn't have some issues, but if a guy who was destined to stardom, i.e. John Wall, did what IT has done for 3-4 years, especially this year, you wouldn't be hearing this type of rhetoric.

Just my opinion, of course. It's human nature.

Yah, despite how we talk about pro athletes, these guys aren't computers.

 

[NielsisGood]

Conley is better than IT. It's scary how little pub he gets. He's the most complete guard of the group. He has no real weakness, unlike all the other guys.

He gets the appropriate amount of pub and a well deserved max deal. He's not better than IT this season though. There's literally 0 metric that supports the case for Conley over IT, and a simple eye test confirms that IT has more impact on a game than Conley does.