OT: I was wrong about Steph Curry

[CardiacAndre7]

I have a group of friends who are starting to get annoyed with the incessant mouth guard chewing. It is a little silly, but it doesn't really bother me. Even my mouth guard hating friends recognize he's the best shooter they've ever seen. Except for one of them who's a Clippers fan. The Clippers fan claims JJ Reddick could do everything Curry can do if his team would just let him...laughable.

I HATE the mouth guard chewing. I think he is just trying to look cute. Also he is very pompous but he kind of has the right to be, still don't like it. Draymond annoys me alot more though. He acts like every shot he hits was the best shot ever, gets in peoples faces for no reason and is just an annoyance. Don't get me wrong, great player, I do think his stats are inflated a good amount due to the system, but the Warriors as a whole just kind of irk me

 

[tykurez]

Draymond Green is a clown. A very very very good clown.

 

[gtcam]

Comparing Curry and LeBron is, to me, a difficult thing to do.
Curry is shooting guard and has developed into a real good point guard.
LBJ is a guard in a 3 body.
There are things that Curry can do that LBJ can't and visa versa
I feel Curry can shoot better and right now can create better. Passing is a toss up. Rebounding belongs to LBJ.
Defense? If either wants to play that part of the game, because of size and strength, LBJ has the edge.
If I had to start a team, either one of them would be my 1st pick but I would edge to Curry because I said, it is my team, I don't need a player telling me what or how to do things!

 

[gtcam]

I HATE the mouth guard chewing. I think he is just trying to look cute. Also he is very pompous but he kind of has the right to be, still don't like it. Draymond annoys me alot more though. He acts like every shot he hits was the best shot ever, gets in peoples faces for no reason and is just an annoyance. Don't get me wrong, great player, I do think his stats are inflated a good amount due to the system, but the Warriors as a whole just kind of irk me

For a long time, LeBron was the champion mouth guard flipper, chewer and wear it on your ear.
Draymond Green is a monster. You make him out to be Cousins. I watch a lot of GS ball and Green is not demostrative on a consistent level - sometimes he gets caught up in the momment - its how he plays, very physical and due to that he gets caught up in some scruffs.

 

[tzznandrew]

What's hard about judging Curry is that he is literally unguardable if he is on. He has great handle, so he can blow by you, and when he's making shots standing in the center court logo, he's impossible to stop.

We've never seen a shooter do these sorts of things, at least not with a 3pt line.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Because the Cavs have Kyrie Irving who is redundant with Curry. This is a stupid argument.

Players that play different positions fit differently with different teams - I guess its not stupid to point that out but it doesn't effect the debate on who is better. Nevertheless, LeBron has literally proven that whatever team he is on, Cavs, Heat, Cavs again will make the finals. Add LeBron to a team and its a championship contender, we simply don't have that evidence with Curry.

Also that's why I put the finals stats in, I think more relevant to the debate, but I suppose next someone will point out that Curry and LeBron each played with different teammates against different defenses.

 

[superjohn]

Curry is having one of the greatest seasons in the history of the NBA, comparing Lebron's offensive game to Curry's this season isn't fair to either of them, Curry is better in every measurable. People are resorting to made up arguments like if they swapped places Lebron would be way better, this is pure nonsense and could never be proven. It's also really idiotic that some our trying to claim Lebron doesn't have much talent. He hand picked his team and picked the second best point guard in the league and one of the best forwards in the league. Lebron didn't play with much talent when he first came into the league but he's had unbelievable talent at his disposal since then.

 

[superjohn]

Steph Curry is absolutely the best player in the NBA right now. The difference between Steph Curry's PER and Lebron's PER is the same as between Lebron and Kenneth Faried. Also, Steph's Estimated Wins Added is 33% higher and he has a true shooting percentage 100 points higher. He is also averaging more assists and fewer turnovers with a nearly identical usage rate, and putting up 45/50/90 while averaging over 30 points. Its not close offensively, and that is not accounting for the impact he has on opposing defenses without touching the ball.

Lebron is arguably the greatest player of all time and definitely top 5, but he his athleticism has slipped and he is not the same player he was 5 years ago, particularly on the defensive end. The advanced metrics actually favor Curry as a defender over Lebron. People's perceptions of his defensive ability are still lagging behid reality.

Thanks for doing the numbers work, it's not even close right now and that's hard for a lot of people to wrap their head around.

 

[Excalibur]

Curry is having one of the greatest seasons in the history of the NBA, comparing Lebron's offensive game to Curry's this season isn't fair to either of them, Curry is better in every measurable. People are resorting to made up arguments like if they swapped places Lebron would be way better, this is pure nonsense and could never be proven. It's also really idiotic that some our trying to claim Lebron doesn't have much talent. He hand picked his team and picked the second best point guard in the league and one of the best forwards in the league. Lebron didn't play with much talent when he first came into the league but he's had unbelievable talent at his disposal since then.

The comparison was made, I think, more in reference to last year's finals, and it's a defensible argument there. The improvement in both Curry and GS from then to now has been remarkable. Curry is doing things that have never been done before on a team that is changing how the NBA game is played.

 

[BUConn10]

No he won't. And that's kind of the point.

How is that the point. If you read my post I'm saying until Curry surpasses Ray for the 3pt FGs record he won't have the title in my book. Whether he does that or not is yet to be determined, he certainly has a great shot at beating it but until then the record books stand. Like I said, it depends on how you define the phrase "greatest shooter in NBA history", for me I put an emphasis on the NBA history part in my argument.

 

[superjohn]

How is that the point. If you read my post I'm saying until Curry surpasses Ray for the 3pt FGs record he won't have the title in my book. Whether he does that or not is yet to be determined, he certainly has a great shot at beating it but until then the record books stand. Like I said, it depends on how you define the phrase "greatest shooter in NBA history", for me I put an emphasis on the NBA history part in my argument.

Longevity must be your whole thing. I also don't agree with you that Kareem and Malone are the two greatest scorers ever, Hank Aaron the greatest homerun hitter ever, Rose the greatest hitter ever etc.

 

[tzznandrew]

How is that the point. If you read my post I'm saying until Curry surpasses Ray for the 3pt FGs record he won't have the title in my book. Whether he does that or not is yet to be determined, he certainly has a great shot at beating it but until then the record books stand. Like I said, it depends on how you define the phrase "greatest shooter in NBA history", for me I put an emphasis on the NBA history part in my argument.

I mean, sure, I guess. But Curry has 3 season in the Top 5 of all time 3s made...and he's already in the Top 30 this year.

And that's not getting into the point that Curry is a career 44% shooter while Allen was 40%.

Regardless of whether Curry gets the all-time record, he's the best 3pt shooter ever.

Comparison: who was the better HR hitter, Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron?

 

[KingOPancakes]

How is that the point. If you read my post I'm saying until Curry surpasses Ray for the 3pt FGs record he won't have the title in my book. Whether he does that or not is yet to be determined, he certainly has a great shot at beating it but until then the record books stand. Like I said, it depends on how you define the phrase "greatest shooter in NBA history", for me I put an emphasis on the NBA history part in my argument.

Best 3 point shooter of all time isn't all about who hit more 3's. Lamar Odom has more career 3's than Larry bird. Is Lamar Odom a better 3 point shooter than Bird? Of course not.

 

[auror]

Players that play different positions fit differently with different teams - I guess its not stupid to point that out but it doesn't effect the debate on who is better. Nevertheless, LeBron has literally proven that whatever team he is on, Cavs, Heat, Cavs again will make the finals. Add LeBron to a team and its a championship contender, we simply don't have that evidence with Curry.

Sure, put Lebron on any team in the past 6 years in the terrible East and they're a Finals contender. I think the same would be true for last and this year's version of Curry.

I also believe the things that Curry has been doing much better than Lebron recently (shooting and creating with the ball) are more important than the things that Lebron is doing better (rebounding, defensive versatility), since those things can be made up by teammates and to a large extent scheme (individual rebounding is the most overrated aspect of basketball, especially in the current NBA where few teams crash the offensive glass and defensive is more team-focused than offense).

Curry fits with any team too (every team could use more spacing and shooting and most could use creating), except your example was putting him on the Cavs, who just happen to have one of the two other players in the entire league who do some of the same things as him almost as well. In fact, the problem isn't Curry's versatility, it's Kyrie's. He's less able to move to a different role (and Curry would be more able to play off ball), so he has to be the creator and so you lose Curry's creation.

 

[7774]

How is that the point. If you read my post I'm saying until Curry surpasses Ray for the 3pt FGs record he won't have the title in my book. Whether he does that or not is yet to be determined, he certainly has a great shot at beating it but until then the record books stand. Like I said, it depends on how you define the phrase "greatest shooter in NBA history", for me I put an emphasis on the NBA history part in my argument.

So basically you're just saying that you're never going to be able to grasp that shooting ability and longevity are 2 different skills.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Sure, put Lebron on any team in the past 6 years in the terrible East and they're a Finals contender. I think the same would be true for last and this year's version of Curry.

I don't think you can put Curry on say Boston or Wizards or HEAT and they'd definitely make the finals. Whereas LeBron has proven this is the case. And you'll never be able to prove me wrong b/c Golden State & Curry would be equally crazy to let him go
I think defense and versatility still put LeBron ahead by a hair, but they are the two best players in the NBA (& we can all differ on this just like we'd differ on #3 - Kobe) and Curry is ascending while LeBron is definitely on his back 9.

 

[superjohn]

I don't think you can put Curry on say Boston or Wizards or HEAT and they'd definitely make the finals. Whereas LeBron has proven this is the case. And you'll never be able to prove me wrong b/c Golden State & Curry would be equally crazy to let him go
I think defense and versatility still put LeBron ahead by a hair, but they are the two best players in the NBA (& we can all differ on this just like we'd differ on #3 - Kobe) and Curry is ascending while LeBron is definitely on his back 9.

Lebron has proven he can take Boston and Washington to the finals? He took the Heat to the finals several times with serious help from two of the other top 10 players in the league. This type of argument is beyond silly. Did you just say Kobe is your #3 player in the NBA? Kobe is currently one of the worst players in the league taking up a roster spot.

 

[BleedHuskyBlu]

How is that the point. If you read my post I'm saying until Curry surpasses Ray for the 3pt FGs record he won't have the title in my book. Whether he does that or not is yet to be determined, he certainly has a great shot at beating it but until then the record books stand. Like I said, it depends on how you define the phrase "greatest shooter in NBA history", for me I put an emphasis on the NBA history part in my argument.

If Currys career ended today he would still be the greatest 3pt shooter in NBA history

 

[KingOPancakes]

I don't think you can put Curry on say Boston or Wizards or HEAT and they'd definitely make the finals. Whereas LeBron has proven this is the case. And you'll never be able to prove me wrong b/c Golden State & Curry would be equally crazy to let him go
I think defense and versatility still put LeBron ahead by a hair, but they are the two best players in the NBA (& we can all differ on this just like we'd differ on #3 - Kobe) and Curry is ascending while LeBron is definitely on his back 9.

Lebron hasn't been on a terrible east team without 2 other perennial all stars since he was 25. So, no. He has not proven this is the case.

 

[tzznandrew]

To be fair, LeBron took a terrible team to the Finals in 2007...and promptly got massacred.

Last year's team had some great players, and if he willed the Love-less, Irving-less Cavs to a title that would have been the greatest Finals performance ever.

 

[methodology]

To be fair, LeBron took a terrible team to the Finals in 2007...and promptly got massacred.

Last year's team had some great players, and if he willed the Love-less, Irving-less Cavs to a title that would have been the greatest Finals performance ever.

That 2007 Cavs team had no business getting as far as they did. The only reason they got where they did was Lebron and no one in the league could have taken that team that far other than LeBron.

Last year LeBron arguably had the MVP performance of the series. LeBron over the past couple seasons has learned to conserve his body and energy for when it counts. He is more or less on cruise control until the final month of hte season when he starts to go into beast mode.

With that said Curry is currently the best player in the league. What he is able to do on the court is breathtaking. Its never been done before. You literally have to guard Curry once he steps over half court.

 

[CallMeBruce]

I love LeBron. Love love love LeBron. Maybe my favorite NBA player ever. Love everything about his game, his approach, how he can poke fun at himself, etc. Curry is better than he is now. It's a bummer, because I thought LeBron would be the dominant player in the NBA until at least his mid-30s, and that doesn't appear to be the case. I don't think this affects LeBron's legacy, which is still as an all-timer, so much as it shows what an unbelievable generational talent Curry is.

 

[UconnBoston]

I don't think you can put Curry on say Boston or Wizards or HEAT and they'd definitely make the finals. Whereas LeBron has proven this is the case. And you'll never be able to prove me wrong b/c Golden State & Curry would be equally crazy to let him go
I think defense and versatility still put LeBron ahead by a hair, but they are the two best players in the NBA (& we can all differ on this just like we'd differ on #3 - Kobe) and Curry is ascending while LeBron is definitely on his back 9.

Pointing out that LeBron has taken multiple teams to the finals as a justification for his superiority this year proves my point, you are too swayed by perception based upon historical performance. All that matters in determining the best player in the NBA is where these two guys are now.

Curry would definitely make the Heat a finals contender and probably the Celtics too. The Celtics' point differential for the year is not that far behind the Cavs. Add Curry and they become the favorite in the East.

 

[Matrim55]

Prefacing this post with the fact that I'm actually a Dubs fan, and I do believe that Curry is in fact the best player in the league. But there are a couple of things that need to be debunked.

Steph Curry is absolutely the best player in the NBA right now. The difference between Steph Curry's PER and Lebron's PER is the same as between Lebron and Kenneth Faried.

PER is a very limited stat in that it only measures box-score contributions, and ignores stuff like picks, off-the-ball movement, positional gravity, close-outs, box-outs, etc. It also ignores who your teammates are, which is kinda important.

I know the quants at Toronto & Boston, and they laugh at the notion that PER is a useful metric.

Lebron is arguably the greatest player of all time and definitely top 5, but he his athleticism has slipped and he is not the same player he was 5 years ago, particularly on the defensive end. The advanced metrics actually favor Curry as a defender over Lebron.

This is really, really untrue. LeBron's DRPM (defensive real +/-) is +2.62, which is the second-best of any wing player in the league behind Kawhi, and 36th overall. Curry's is +1.29, which is 91st in the league and fourth among point guards.

DBPM is even more lopsided (defnsive box +/-), with LeBron at +2.3 and Curry at +0.1, placing LeBron in the league's top 20 (third best wing behind Kawhi and Danny Green) and Curry slightly above average. Defensive win shares is closer with LeBron at +2.4 and Curry at +2.3, but win shares is a pretty crappy stat.

I don't think any of these stats are perfect, and generally speaking Curry's been really good defensively this year while offensively he's reinventing the game.

That said, people have gotten so used to LeBron's greatness on both ends that we don't even appreciate it anymore -- and that's sad considering he's, at worst, the 3rd-best player of all time.

 

[tzznandrew]

That said, people have gotten so used to LeBron's greatness on both ends that we don't even appreciate it anymore -- and that's sad considering he's, at worst, the 3rd-best player of all time.

LeBron is still great.

What no one could have predicted, though, was how the Spurs adjustments in the late 00s changed the game. In realizing the value of the 3, they began to reshape what was valued in a player and open up space. You get a league already moving in the direction of spacing and shooting, and in steps the greatest shooter of all time.

He would be fantastic in any era, but the confluence of his shooting ability and the changing nature of the game has made him especially excellent. Defenses don't know what to do with Curry because there hasn't been anyone like him.

And that's a big difference between him and Jordan: Jordan is the greater player, but Jordan came out of a certain mold, a certain defined history of scoring 2 guards. Defenses knew what they should do, they just couldn't stop him.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Curry's shooting ability is bar none #1, but in 25 years when my son is on wikipedia looking up old NBA stats like I was when I was a teenager, he will see "Most all-time 3pt field goals: RAY ALLEN", thats all he will remember. Until Curry breaks Ray's record, that will hold true, and thats not taking anything away from Curry, he is absolutely incredible, but longevity is impressive in its own right. If Curry gets back to his injury prone state from a couple years ago, we could see Curry in a similar light to a guy like Pete Maravich in a few decades. I fully expect this comment to be controversial.

Even if that did all happen and Steph doesn't end up having the longevity for whatever reason, the volume shooting and efficiency he's producing right now is on an entirely different level than anything that's ever happened before.

 

[1999.2004.2011]

I know that Golden State just blew out San Antonio last night, but man I can't wait for the Western Conference Finals (assuming the Spurs get there)
Curry - Thompson - Barnes - Green - Bogut vs. Parker - Ginobli - Leonard - Aldridge - Duncan.....bruh

 

[Kitaman]

I have a group of friends who are starting to get annoyed with the incessant mouth guard chewing. It is a little silly, but it doesn't really bother me. Even my mouth guard hating friends recognize he's the best shooter they've ever seen. Except for one of them who's a Clippers fan. The Clippers fan claims JJ Reddick could do everything Curry can do if his team would just let him...laughable.

Many of the great athletes of today have a bad habit or two. Curry mouthpiece, Cam exuberance, Lebron and his whatever, etc..

I will say that its also great that that is about the only thing we can complain about with this group of 'new Greats'. In other words off the court/field there is nothing to complain about and if kids today need a role model there are a few to select from.

In my days you had reefer smoking, multi-women banging, practice missing, casino gambling, fist fighting, all night disco bumping role models. Oh and we fans didn't complain, go figure.

 

[MexicoHusky]

Many of the great athletes of today have a bad habit or two. Curry mouthpiece, Cam exuberance, Lebron and his whatever, etc..

I will say that its also great that that is about the only thing we can complain about with this group of 'new Greats'. In other words off the court/field there is nothing to complain about and if kids today need a role model there are a few to select from.

In my days you had reefer smoking, multi-women banging, practice missing, casino gambling, fist fighting, all night disco bumping role models. Oh and we fans didn't complain, go figure.

It is still your day

 

[Kitaman]

It is still your day

Yeah I should have mentioned that the internet wasn't around back then. So you could get away with a lot and claim everything to be a rumor. Word traveled much slower too so it was old news by the time the public got wind.

Cam was dabbin at the Club on Sunday night, nothing illegal, but social media captures everything: