OT: Eli Manning

[Rico444]

Did someone say Dallas hasn't provided a supporting cast for Romo? Is that supposed to be a joke?

The only team Dallas had that had the potential to win the super bowl was that 07-08 team, and they lost to the eventual super bowl champs (and the better team) by 4 points.

What years besides that do you think Dallas had a legitimate chance to go to a super bowl? I can tell you from watching then that every other year the team had major flaws.

 

[BlueMAB]

So I have a question, wing u. Do you think Eli is on the level of Rodgers, Brady, and Peyton? Those are the elite quarterbacks in this league. Eli is very good. He is not on that level. Do you think he's a first ballot hall of famer, like those three?

You've already explained why he's not, but your reasons given are flawed. Why is it you don't want to discuss or defend the reasons you gave?

Please explain why Eli isn't elite because he couldn't tackle DeSean Jackson, couldn't get a stop against Aaron Rodgers in the last minute, and couldn't keep New Orleans out of the endzone.

 

[BlueMAB]

But not elite unless he proves he can take a team with flaws deep into the playoffs. Rodgers did it.

That "flawed" team has won 19 straight and has the second longest win streak in the history of the NFL.

Rodgers is elite, but maybe the team isn't as flawed as you want it to be to support your argument. Of course, every NFL team has flaws, which is why only one has gone undefeated.

 

[Rico444]

You're really citing the eagles game from last year to call eli elite? The game where he did absolutely nothing in the 4th quarter while the eagles clawed back from down 3 scores? Or the New Orleans game, where he did absolutely nothing in the first half against a mediocre at best defense and allowed his team to fall down by 20+ points? The same defense that allowed 50 points to Aaron Rodgers and Green Bay? Or the same Eli manning that did nothing against the eagles earlier this year and fumbled the ball away on the last drive?

Eli Manning is having his best statistical season this year. Put his statline this year up against the best seasons of Rodgers, Brady, and Peyton, and it's not even in the same stratosphere.

There. I "defended my points." Now, stop avoiding my question: Do you think Eli is as good as Rodgers, Brady, and Peyton?

 

[tzznandrew]

And BTW - I got roasted for saying it - we're an anti-religious nation. This thread exemplifies what I mean. Public mention of religion brings immediate scorn and sarcasm from the intelligentsia.

The country is absolutely not "anti-religious." When 78% of the country is Christian, and when poll after poll shows that anyone who atheist has no shot at winning the presidency, it can't be anti-religious.

There's never been a non-Christian president or vice-president.

There may be segments of people who are hostile. And that may be in the "intelligentsia," but your point is quite different. The average American is far more religious than just about every other first world country.

Anyway, just wanted to briefly respond to that without "roasting" you. It should probably be on the Cesspool.

 

[UconnBoston]

Of course I do. Trust me, I do. I'm a cowboys fan. Romo gets murdered in the media for not winning more than one playoff game, and every time the cowboys lose, it's his fault. The reality is, he has never had an elite supporting cast. An elite quarterback can take an average team deep in the playoffs. Romo is very good, but not elite.

I wrote the above paragraph because that's also how I feel about Eli. He is great in the 2 minute drill, and when he has an elite supporting cast, he can win a super bowl (see 2007-2008). However, he has had an average to above average team each of the last few years, and hasn't won a playoff game. He is very good. But not elite unless he proves he can take a team with flaws deep into the playoffs. Rodgers did it. Brady has done it, and his brother has done it. They are elite. I'm sorry, but Eli isn't until he does that.

Thats exactly what he did in the 2008 playoffs, he took a 10-6 team that was the 5th seed in the NFC through the most difficult post-season run in NFL history, beating the 13-3 Cowboys in Dallas, the 13-3 Packers in Green Bay and the 18-0 Patriots in Arizona.

Also, if you are going to decide that your definition of Elite is Brady, Peyton and Rodgers then I suppose you are correct, because Eli has not had the careers that Brady and Peyton have had and Rodgers is having one of the best statistical seasons in NFL history. Having said that, Eli is clearly in the top 3 or 4 amongst active quarterbacks this season (along with Brees, Brady and Rodgers), which by most standards, makes him elite.

 

[Rico444]

To the above poster, as some one earlier in the thread said, this is a team sport. The Giants' terrific defense stepping up was the reason they made that run. Eli made some plays, there is no question, but you didn't need an elite QB to win the super bowl that year...not with that defense.

 

[Rico444]

And honestly, if you want to say Eli is elite because he's having a great year, fine. Romo is putting up slightly better stats this year, so you'd have to call him elite, too.

I don't agree with that line of thinking, and I don't think either QB is elite.

 

[Edward Sargent]

Honestly, Manning is the best quarterback I have seen since Tim Tebow.

I believe that God loves Eli Manning. And Peyton Manning. And probably Archie Manning.

But He doesn't love that other Manning brother who got rickets and had to quit football. He's prolly going to Hell.

I have met a couple of times in Hoboken restaurants where he lives (ed). Two things impressed me about him. His personality - he is a personable, humble, aw shucks type when you meet him and his size - he isn't that big, tall yes but not big like Big (Good God Big) Tim Tebow.

 

[BlueMAB]

You're really citing the eagles game from last year to call eli elite? The game where he did absolutely nothing in the 4th quarter while the eagles clawed back from down 3 scores? Or the New Orleans game, where he did absolutely nothing in the first half against a mediocre at best defense and allowed his team to fall down by 20+ points? The same defense that allowed 50 points to Aaron Rodgers and Green Bay? Or the same Eli manning that did nothing against the eagles earlier this year and fumbled the ball away on the last drive?

Eli Manning is having his best statistical season this year. Put his statline this year up against the best seasons of Rodgers, Brady, and Peyton, and it's not even in the same stratosphere.

There. I "defended my points." Now, stop avoiding my question: Do you think Eli is as good as Rodgers, Brady, and Peyton?

So Eli gave up the 3 scores against the Eagles to blow the lead?

Eli gave up the touchdowns that allowed his team to fall behind by 20+ points?

Eli gave up the last second field goal against the Packers?

Eli gave up the sack from behind on the last drive where he had them in a position to win?

Eli dropped the pass against the Seahawks that was returned for 6 where the Giants where in a positio to win thanks to Eli?

You didn't defend anything, you only reworded an already dumb argument.

When did Rodgers, Brady, or Peyton ever have a backfield with Ahmad Bradshaw, and/or Tiki Barber, and/or Brandon Jacobs? When did they ever play for a run first oriented offense? When did they ever have the talent at RB, and and O-line that has always been better at run blocking than pass blocking?

Eli is on pace for 5,000 yards this year and (like two of the three mentioned) could/should break the single season record. This is the case because unlike in prior seasons, he has had to carry the offense.

 

[BlueMAB]

Ironic how one has to use 2 of the 5-10 greatest QB's to ever play the game, and the greatest single QB season ever, to make the claim Eli isn't elite.

 

[Rico444]

How didn't I defend my argument? Eli Manning isn't the first quarterback to have a bad defense. He can't stop the other team from scoring, but he can continue to put points on the board when his defense stinks. He has had plenty of games where his quarterback play was not very good. Just because the defense sucked too doesn't mean he was elite.

Are you really going to ignore my question forever? Because you're just talking in circles right now, and im getting bored of it. We can both agree Eli is a very good quarterback. I can't tell if you think he's in the Rodgers, Peyton, Brady category because you refuse to answer my simple question. If you're not going to answer it, don't bother responding, because I'm just going to have to repeat myself.

 

[BlueMAB]

How didn't I defend my argument? Eli Manning isn't the first quarterback to have a bad defense. He can't stop the other team from scoring, but he can continue to put points on the board when his defense stinks.
Are you really going to ignore my question forever?

Just so we're clear. You believe that any loss is because one quartberback couldn't outscore the other quarterback, the quality of the opposing defenses and offenses is irrelevant. Because for your argument to be true that must be the case. And I should take you seriously when you claim what constitutes an elite QB?

You still haven't figured out whether or not I disagree with your opinion on whether or not he is elite? The nature of my responses should tell you where I stand on the matter. I haven't directly answered your question because it's a straw man argument. Just because he isn't one of the best 2 QBs to ever play the game, and just because he hasn't had the best single season ever, doesn't mean he isn't elite. The premise of each of your arguments against him is seriously flawed.

 

[61cygni]

So basically you two just define "elite" differently. Does that about sum it up?

 

[BlueMAB]

So basically you two just define "elite" differently. Does that about sum it up?

If anything short of Brady/Peyton and 2011 Rodgers isn't elite, then there are about 3-4 elite QBs in the history of the game.

Montana, Elway, Marino, Brady and Peyton are elite. Nobody else.

If that's the standard, fine, he's not elite. Then neither is Steve Young, Bret Favre, Troy Aikman and a host of other hall of famers.

IMO, if you're a hall of famer, you're elite. Eli will be a hall of famer, therefore he is elite.

 

[Rico444]

We obviously disagree on the definition of elite. According to your criteria, there are a lot of elite QBs in the league. In addition to the three I named, plus Eli, you've got Romo, Roethelisberger, Rivers, Schaub, Vick, and Ryan. I may have missed one or two, but I don't consider this group elite. I think of elite as the best of the best. The only QB in that group that I would argue might make my original elite group would be big ben. You're entitled to your opinion, but I just don't agree with this group.

 

[Rico444]

So basically you two just define "elite" differently. Does that about sum it up?

Looks like it.

You know, you could've saved us a lot of time of you'd posted that 20 posts ago!

 

[tzznandrew]

Provided he doesn't go apeshit raping women in the next 10-15 years, Big Ben is a HOFer. Two Super Bowls wins, Three Super Bowl appearances.

 

[BlueMAB]

We obviously disagree on the definition of elite. According to your criteria, there are a lot of elite QBs in the league. In addition to the three I named, plus Eli, you've got Romo, Roethelisberger, Rivers, Schaub, Vick, and Ryan. I may have missed one or two, but I don't consider this group elite. I think of elite as the best of the best. The only QB in that group that I would argue might make my original elite group would be big ben. You're entitled to your opinion, but I just don't agree with this group.

What is my criteria? I don't recall stating what it was or who else was elite.

Why bother asking me questions if you're just going to post my opinion for me?

No, Romo is not elite, one playoff win in his career doesn't cut it. Big Ben is absolutely elite, Schaub is not, Vick is not, Ryan is not, Rivers is borderline but not.

It's more than pure stats, there also has to be context to the results, as well as high quality performance over multiple years, and repeated success late in games, late in the season, and throughout the playoffs.

 

[Rico444]

Well, I guess eli doesn't fit your criteria. He has had one season where he had ANY success in the playoffs. And where are these multiple seasons of great statistics? 25 picks last year.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I am not a Giants fan but right now the only QBs I would take i've worked Eli are named Tom and and Drew.

 

[Rico444]

And romo isn't elite because he only has one playoff win? Is it his fault his defense fell apart in 2008? His fault the offensive line played matador in 2009? These were excuses for eli, but you're using them to condemn romo.

 

[BlueMAB]

Well, I guess eli doesn't fit your criteria. He has had one season where he had ANY success in the playoffs. And where are these multiple seasons of great statistics? 25 picks last year.

Take a look at Favres numbers and then tell me he isn't elite because of the interceptions.

If you watched Eli, you'd see how many of his interceptions are a result of dropped passes by the wide receivers. It's mind numbingly annoying.

 

[BlueMAB]

And romo isn't elite because he only has one playoff win? Is it his fault his defense fell apart in 2008? His fault the offensive line played matador in 2009? These were excuses for eli, but you're using them to condemn romo.

That's just one reason. That and he can't hold the snap on a PAT. There are others, but what's the point? No matter what I say, you're going to put words in my mouth to argue with.

 

[Rico444]

So of the 25, how many weren't Eli's fault? That's still a very high number.

And Eli still hasn't met all of your criteria. He has had one season of success in the playoffs. Every season since, his team has fallen apart at the end of the season.