OT: Eli Manning

[BlueMAB]

To the above poster, as some one earlier in the thread said, this is a team sport. The Giants' terrific defense stepping up was the reason they made that run. Eli made some plays, there is no question, but you didn't need an elite QB to win the super bowl that year...not with that defense.

This ignores two facts (and is further evidence why you're wrong).

1) The Giants already lost to the Pats (at home) with "that defense"
2) The Giants would have lost to the Pats with "that defense" if Eli Manning hadn't orchestrated a 2 minute touchdown scoring drive to take the leade with less than 2 minutes in the game.

Basically you're argument is that Eli isn't elite because the defense wins games and he loses games. Right.

 

[Rico444]

That's just one reason. That and he can't hold the snap on a PAT. There are others, but what's the point? No matter what I say, you're going to put words in my mouth to argue with.

LOL, right. I'm using your own criteria when I ask questions. So maybe what you use to evaluate an elite quarterback is the problem here.

 

[BlueMAB]

So of the 25, how many weren't Eli's fault? That's still a very high number.

And Eli still hasn't met all of your criteria. He has had one season of success in the playoffs. Every season since, his team has fallen apart at the end of the season.

That was one season. Look at Brett Favre's career. He isn't elite?

It's Eli's fault he didn't tackle DeSean Jackson last year? That game was won, the defense collapsed and special teams choked, not sure how you can blame Eli.

Eli has engineered 4th quarter game winning comebacks since he took over the starting duties. Remember the Giants/Cowboys game in 2004?

The Giants collapses haven't been due to the play of Eli, in fact, they've happened in spite of his play. Defense, injuries, and highly quesitonable coaching decisions have been the main issues.

Eli has as many Super Bowl MVPs as Romo has playoff wins. Eli has as many rings as his brother Peyton. He also never had a team built around him (like Peyton) and never took over a Super Bowl caliber team (like Brady). So you can't look at stats alone.

Again, based on your definitio of elite, there are 6-7 elite QBs.......EVER. That's just silly.

 

[BlueMAB]

LOL, right. I'm using your own criteria when I ask questions. So maybe what you use to evaluate an elite quarterback is the problem here.

You listed the elite qb's for me, based on your presumptions before I ever said what my criteria was.

If my definition is the problem then what other QBs over the past 10 years are/have been elite? Who else besides Brady/Manning and Rodgers?

 

[Rico444]

This ignores two facts (and is further evidence why you're wrong).

1) The Giants already lost to the Pats (at home) with "that defense"
2) The Giants would have lost to the Pats with "that defense" if Eli Manning hadn't orchestrated a 2 minute touchdown scoring drive to take the leade with less than 2 minutes in the game.

Basically you're argument is that Eli isn't elite because the defense wins games and he loses games. Right.

1) the giants were playing at a different level in the playoffs than they did in the regular season, much like Uconn last year.

2) the defense gave up 14 points to what was probably the best offensive team ever. If anyone blamed the defense had they lost giving up 14 points, they would be crazy.

 

[Rico444]

That was one season. Look at Brett Favre's career. He isn't elite?

It's Eli's fault he didn't tackle DeSean Jackson last year? That game was won, the defense collapsed and special teams choked, not sure how you can blame Eli.

Eli has engineered 4th quarter game winning comebacks since he took over the starting duties. Remember the Giants/Cowboys game in 2004?

The Giants collapses haven't been due to the play of Eli, in fact, they've happened in spite of his play. Defense, injuries, and highly quesitonable coaching decisions have been the main issues.

Eli has as many Super Bowl MVPs as Romo has playoff wins. Eli has as many rings as his brother Peyton. He also never had a team built around him (like Peyton) and never took over a Super Bowl caliber team (like Brady). So you can't look at stats alone.

Again, based on your definitio of elite, there are 6-7 elite QBs.......EVER. That's just silly.

So we agree that football is a team sport? So why are you knocking romo for only winning one playoff game when it sure as hell wasnt his fault?

 

[BlueMAB]

So we agree that football is a team sport? So why are you knocking romo for only winning one playoff game when it sure as hell wasnt his fault?

It wasn't his fault he couldn't hold on to the snap on the PAT attempt?

We don't agree that football is a team sport because you keep holding defensive collapses against Eli Manning.

 

[BlueMAB]

LOL, right. I'm using your own criteria when I ask questions. So maybe what you use to evaluate an elite quarterback is the problem here.

Where did I say that they must meet ALL of the criteria?

If I were to use your logic that would mean Peyton Manning (and his one super bowl ring) isn't elite.

Maybe you should stop inventing arguments to disagree with?

 

[tykurez]

 

[BlueMAB]

1) the giants were playing at a different level in the playoffs than they did in the regular season, much like Uconn last year.

2) the defense gave up 14 points to what was probably the best offensive team ever. If anyone blamed the defense had they lost giving up 14 points, they would be crazy.

Which conveniently ignores the 35 points scored by the giants in the first game. Both defenses stepped heir game up

 

[Drumguy]

Of course I do. Trust me, I do. I'm a cowboys fan. Romo gets murdered in the media for not winning more than one playoff game, and every time the cowboys lose, it's his fault. The reality is, he has never had an elite supporting cast. An elite quarterback can take an average team deep in the playoffs. Romo is very good, but not elite.

I wrote the above paragraph because that's also how I feel about Eli. He is great in the 2 minute drill, and when he has an elite supporting cast, he can win a super bowl (see 2007-2008). However, he has had an average to above average team each of the last few years, and hasn't won a playoff game. He is very good. But not elite unless he proves he can take a team with flaws deep into the playoffs. Rodgers did it. Brady has done it, and his brother has done it. They are elite. I'm sorry, but Eli isn't until he does that.

Time Out! Time Out! Who said Eli had an elite team in 07-08? That's creative after the fact, what I would expect from a 'boys fan. Did I say Let's call a Time Out?

 

[Adios]

What's laughable is that Eli didn't even have a warrior mentality before. Somehow, he was recently coached/conditioned into thinking he's a hotshot.

 

[Rico444]

I really only want to make two points in this thread. I will state them here for clarity.

1) I don't believe Eli is elite. In my eyes, the elite quarterbacks are the best of the best; first-ballot HOFers. Not necessarily ones that have the resume right now, but ones that if they continue playing at a high level of play they have established on a consistent basis, will undoubtedly be there. My elite QBs would be Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, and Ben Roethelisberger (somebody I missed on my list earlier, but he definitely fits). Not everybody has to agree with my definition of elite.

2) A quarterback can only control certain things. I agree that a quarterback can't control a horrible defense. I was making those comments to try to prove a point. Why should Tony Romo have his lack of playoff success held against him when his play wasn't what lead to the Cowboys' losses? Just like the Giants' bad defense shouldn't be held against Eli.

 

[tzznandrew]

I really only want to make two points in this thread. I will state them here for clarity.

1) I don't believe Eli is elite. In my eyes, the elite quarterbacks are the best of the best; first-ballot HOFers. Not necessarily ones that have the resume right now, but ones that if they continue playing at a high level of play they have established on a consistent basis, will undoubtedly be there. My elite QBs would be Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, and Ben Roethelisberger (somebody I missed on my list earlier, but he definitely fits). Not everybody has to agree with my definition of elite.

2) A quarterback can only control certain things. I agree that a quarterback can't control a horrible defense. I was making those comments to try to prove a point. Why should Tony Romo have his lack of playoff success held against him when his play wasn't what lead to the Cowboys' losses? Just like the Giants' bad defense shouldn't be held against Eli.

Romo had a decent/poor game against the Seahawks in '06 (QBR 89.6) 17/29, 6.5 YPA 1 TD
He had a terrible game against the Giants in '07 (QBR 64.7) 18/36, 5.6 YPA, 1 TD, 1 INT
He had a very nice game against Philly in '09 (QBR 104.9) 23/35, 7.0 YPA, 2 TD
But then he followed it up with a terrible game against Minnesota: (66.1 QBR) 22/35, 5.7 YPA, 0 TD, 1 INT, 2 Fumbles Lost.

So, overall, he went to the playoffs 3 times. His overall record is 1-3. He's never been to the NFC Championship Game. Two of those four games he was abominable. You can give the other team credit, but his rating was bad and he stunk up the joint. The game against the Seahawks was fine, except that he personally lost it by fumbling the ball.

Against Philly, in a WC game, he had a very good game and they won.

Manning, on the other hand:
2005: Lost in WC to Carolina. Terrible game. QBR 35. 10/18, 6.8 YPA, 3 INT, 1 Fumble Lost
2006: Lost in WC to Philly. He played decent (similar to Romo v. Seattle). QBR 85.6, 16/27, 6.0 YPA, 2 TD, 1 INT
2007: We all know. 4 wins. Killed Romo head to head (QBR 132.4) 12/18, 9.1 YPA, 2 TD
2008: He was terrible the next year against Philly. That team could have been very good, but the Plaxico incident happened. Regardless, a putrid performance.

That said, 3 really fantastic games (2007 v. TB, Dal, NE), 2 decent games, 2 bad games. 4-3.

That's not a great resume. Except for the Super Bowl win. Clearly better than Romo in the playoffs.

 

[Fishy]

I love the social triviality that the topic is "OT: Eli Manning."
Because there might be readers who see "Eli Manning" in the topic and think he got hired as Ollie's next in line.

And BTW - I got roasted for saying it - we're an anti-religious nation. This thread exemplifies what I mean. Public mention of religion brings immediate scorn and sarcasm from the intelligentsia.

I would generally agree with you, but you're giving this thread too much credit - it's aspirations were limited to getting a cheap laugh.

I would mention that I met Archbishop Dolan (NY) the other night. I only do this to let you know how important I am.

 

[Rico444]

Romo's game against the Vikings was not even close to his fault. The offensive line completely fell apart, and he had no time to throw the ball all night. Seriously...did you watch that game? It was the most pathetic performance I've ever seen from an offensive line. He never had a chance from the beginning. I'll give you the bad game against the Giants in 08.

But Eli was fantastic against the Patriots? He had a passer rating of 87.3. Not to mention on the final drive, he threw a terrible pass that absolutely should have been picked off, but was bobbled and dropped, and he had to be bailed out by David Tyree on that ridiculous catch. He stepped up late in the game, but he was far from fantastic.

Eli Manning's career postseason passer rating is 77.6. Not to take away from his ring, he played well enough with the team he had to get it, and he stepped up and made big plays in the super bowl. But let's not paint him out to be a god here.

 

[tzznandrew]

Romo's game against the Vikings was not even close to his fault. The offensive line completely fell apart, and he had no time to throw the ball all night. Seriously...did you watch that game? It was the most pathetic performance I've ever seen from an offensive line. He never had a chance from the beginning. I'll give you the bad game against the Giants in 08.

But Eli was fantastic against the Patriots? He had a passer rating of 87.3. Not to mention on the final drive, he threw a terrible pass that absolutely should have been picked off, but was bobbled and dropped, and he had to be bailed out by David Tyree on that ridiculous catch. He stepped up late in the game, but he was far from fantastic.

Eli Manning's career postseason passer rating is 77.6. Not to take away from his ring, he played well enough with the team he had to get it, and he stepped up and made big plays in the super bowl. But let's not paint him out to be a god here.

He did win Super Bowl MVP for the game. I'll say anyone who wins that deserves a "fantastic" for the game.

 

[Fishy]

I am not a Giants' fan - I'm actually a Vikings' fan.

You are off the duck*ing wall if you try to diminish even an ounce of what Manning did in that drive against the Patriots. The play to Tyree was as good a play as any quarterback has ever made considering the circumstances. Are you forgetting what he went through just to be able to get that pass away?!

Seriously, you have no argument there. He didn't 'step up' late in the game, he led one of the all-time great drives to win a duck*ing Super Bowl.

I'd kill you if it meant Eli Manning would be the Vikings' QB.

 

[Rico444]

Guess I have no chance if everybody's made up their mind already.

You're forgetting his best pass of the drive hit Asante Samuel in the hands.

 

[tzznandrew]

Guess I have no chance if everybody's made up their mind already.

You're forgetting his best pass of the drive hit Asante Samuel in the hands.

That's because, in this case, you are wrong. To try to minimize a guy who won a title and Super Bowl MVP (as opposed to Dilfer) is crazy.

The Romo-Manning comparison is a bad one, I think. In the Tebow thread I more or less argued that Manning was run-of-the-mill. That is wrong. He's much better this year than in the last couple, and I hadn't realized (as I'm not really a Giants fan).

Romo, though, is not very good. That's not true technically. The guy has great mechanics. But there's just something missing with him. He's never come up big in a big game. Manning is the opposite. He stinks up the place in easy games, and they lose to a team like Seattle, but then shows up big in others (NE, Dallas). He's got something upstairs that Romo doesn't. And that's important. It's why I'd always take Montana over Marino.

 

[Rico444]

Yawn. I'm done with this. Some people in this thread have no clue.

 

[Fishy]

Yawn. I'm done with this. Some people in this thread have no clue.

Yes, quit while you're behind.

 

[superjohn]

Sorry Rico, you lose.

 

[nomar]

I'm a Giants fan.

I don't think Eli is "elite" if you define that as being the very top tier of QBs (Peyton/Brady/Brees/Rodgers), but I think the Eli-haters are farther off than the "Eli is elite" crowd.

What Eli did in 2008 was absolutely ridiculous. It was legendary. Pats fans can cry about the possible interceptions on that final drive but there are always possible interceptions. They didn't pick him off and he made them pay.

Frankly, I think nowadays, the fact that Eli's last name is Manning hurts him rather than helps him. If he wasn't named Manning, he'd get even more credit for his late-game heroics. That said, he's stumbled since 2008...until this year. This year, without the Giants' vaunted running attack functioning well, he's had to put the team on his back. And he has played incredible football. He has carried ateam that came into the season with unknown quantities at WR and TE besides one player: Nicks. Eli has his fair share of brain farts but he also has an uncanny ability to perform well in clutch situations.

He's not a HOFer (at least not without a serious late-career run involving multiple SB appearances) but he is a top-1o QB and an elite late-game performer.

 

[Prezidint]

I would generally agree with you, but you're giving this thread too much credit - it's aspirations were limited to getting a cheap laugh.

I would mention that I met Archbishop Dolan (NY) the other night. I only do this to let you know how important I am.

No need to let me know Fishy! Your post to like ration, or, as message board statisticians like me like to call it, your "PL ratio," is the highest on the Boneyard. That's the mark of important, right there.