OT: Eli Manning

[UconnBoston]

Of course I do. Trust me, I do. I'm a cowboys fan. Romo gets murdered in the media for not winning more than one playoff game, and every time the cowboys lose, it's his fault. The reality is, he has never had an elite supporting cast. An elite quarterback can take an average team deep in the playoffs. Romo is very good, but not elite.

I wrote the above paragraph because that's also how I feel about Eli. He is great in the 2 minute drill, and when he has an elite supporting cast, he can win a super bowl (see 2007-2008). However, he has had an average to above average team each of the last few years, and hasn't won a playoff game. He is very good. But not elite unless he proves he can take a team with flaws deep into the playoffs. Rodgers did it. Brady has done it, and his brother has done it. They are elite. I'm sorry, but Eli isn't until he does that.

Thats exactly what he did in the 2008 playoffs, he took a 10-6 team that was the 5th seed in the NFC through the most difficult post-season run in NFL history, beating the 13-3 Cowboys in Dallas, the 13-3 Packers in Green Bay and the 18-0 Patriots in Arizona.

Also, if you are going to decide that your definition of Elite is Brady, Peyton and Rodgers then I suppose you are correct, because Eli has not had the careers that Brady and Peyton have had and Rodgers is having one of the best statistical seasons in NFL history. Having said that, Eli is clearly in the top 3 or 4 amongst active quarterbacks this season (along with Brees, Brady and Rodgers), which by most standards, makes him elite.

 

[Rico444]

To the above poster, as some one earlier in the thread said, this is a team sport. The Giants' terrific defense stepping up was the reason they made that run. Eli made some plays, there is no question, but you didn't need an elite QB to win the super bowl that year...not with that defense.

 

[Rico444]

And honestly, if you want to say Eli is elite because he's having a great year, fine. Romo is putting up slightly better stats this year, so you'd have to call him elite, too.

I don't agree with that line of thinking, and I don't think either QB is elite.

 

[Edward Sargent]

Honestly, Manning is the best quarterback I have seen since Tim Tebow.

I believe that God loves Eli Manning. And Peyton Manning. And probably Archie Manning.

But He doesn't love that other Manning brother who got rickets and had to quit football. He's prolly going to Hell.

I have met a couple of times in Hoboken restaurants where he lives (ed). Two things impressed me about him. His personality - he is a personable, humble, aw shucks type when you meet him and his size - he isn't that big, tall yes but not big like Big (Good God Big) Tim Tebow.

 

[BlueMAB]

You're really citing the eagles game from last year to call eli elite? The game where he did absolutely nothing in the 4th quarter while the eagles clawed back from down 3 scores? Or the New Orleans game, where he did absolutely nothing in the first half against a mediocre at best defense and allowed his team to fall down by 20+ points? The same defense that allowed 50 points to Aaron Rodgers and Green Bay? Or the same Eli manning that did nothing against the eagles earlier this year and fumbled the ball away on the last drive?

Eli Manning is having his best statistical season this year. Put his statline this year up against the best seasons of Rodgers, Brady, and Peyton, and it's not even in the same stratosphere.

There. I "defended my points." Now, stop avoiding my question: Do you think Eli is as good as Rodgers, Brady, and Peyton?

So Eli gave up the 3 scores against the Eagles to blow the lead?

Eli gave up the touchdowns that allowed his team to fall behind by 20+ points?

Eli gave up the last second field goal against the Packers?

Eli gave up the sack from behind on the last drive where he had them in a position to win?

Eli dropped the pass against the Seahawks that was returned for 6 where the Giants where in a positio to win thanks to Eli?

You didn't defend anything, you only reworded an already dumb argument.

When did Rodgers, Brady, or Peyton ever have a backfield with Ahmad Bradshaw, and/or Tiki Barber, and/or Brandon Jacobs? When did they ever play for a run first oriented offense? When did they ever have the talent at RB, and and O-line that has always been better at run blocking than pass blocking?

Eli is on pace for 5,000 yards this year and (like two of the three mentioned) could/should break the single season record. This is the case because unlike in prior seasons, he has had to carry the offense.

 

[BlueMAB]

Ironic how one has to use 2 of the 5-10 greatest QB's to ever play the game, and the greatest single QB season ever, to make the claim Eli isn't elite.

 

[Rico444]

How didn't I defend my argument? Eli Manning isn't the first quarterback to have a bad defense. He can't stop the other team from scoring, but he can continue to put points on the board when his defense stinks. He has had plenty of games where his quarterback play was not very good. Just because the defense sucked too doesn't mean he was elite.

Are you really going to ignore my question forever? Because you're just talking in circles right now, and im getting bored of it. We can both agree Eli is a very good quarterback. I can't tell if you think he's in the Rodgers, Peyton, Brady category because you refuse to answer my simple question. If you're not going to answer it, don't bother responding, because I'm just going to have to repeat myself.

 

[BlueMAB]

How didn't I defend my argument? Eli Manning isn't the first quarterback to have a bad defense. He can't stop the other team from scoring, but he can continue to put points on the board when his defense stinks.
Are you really going to ignore my question forever?

Just so we're clear. You believe that any loss is because one quartberback couldn't outscore the other quarterback, the quality of the opposing defenses and offenses is irrelevant. Because for your argument to be true that must be the case. And I should take you seriously when you claim what constitutes an elite QB?

You still haven't figured out whether or not I disagree with your opinion on whether or not he is elite? The nature of my responses should tell you where I stand on the matter. I haven't directly answered your question because it's a straw man argument. Just because he isn't one of the best 2 QBs to ever play the game, and just because he hasn't had the best single season ever, doesn't mean he isn't elite. The premise of each of your arguments against him is seriously flawed.

 

[61cygni]

So basically you two just define "elite" differently. Does that about sum it up?

 

[BlueMAB]

So basically you two just define "elite" differently. Does that about sum it up?

If anything short of Brady/Peyton and 2011 Rodgers isn't elite, then there are about 3-4 elite QBs in the history of the game.

Montana, Elway, Marino, Brady and Peyton are elite. Nobody else.

If that's the standard, fine, he's not elite. Then neither is Steve Young, Bret Favre, Troy Aikman and a host of other hall of famers.

IMO, if you're a hall of famer, you're elite. Eli will be a hall of famer, therefore he is elite.

 

[Rico444]

We obviously disagree on the definition of elite. According to your criteria, there are a lot of elite QBs in the league. In addition to the three I named, plus Eli, you've got Romo, Roethelisberger, Rivers, Schaub, Vick, and Ryan. I may have missed one or two, but I don't consider this group elite. I think of elite as the best of the best. The only QB in that group that I would argue might make my original elite group would be big ben. You're entitled to your opinion, but I just don't agree with this group.

 

[Rico444]

So basically you two just define "elite" differently. Does that about sum it up?

Looks like it.

You know, you could've saved us a lot of time of you'd posted that 20 posts ago!

 

[tzznandrew]

Provided he doesn't go apeshit raping women in the next 10-15 years, Big Ben is a HOFer. Two Super Bowls wins, Three Super Bowl appearances.

 

[BlueMAB]

We obviously disagree on the definition of elite. According to your criteria, there are a lot of elite QBs in the league. In addition to the three I named, plus Eli, you've got Romo, Roethelisberger, Rivers, Schaub, Vick, and Ryan. I may have missed one or two, but I don't consider this group elite. I think of elite as the best of the best. The only QB in that group that I would argue might make my original elite group would be big ben. You're entitled to your opinion, but I just don't agree with this group.

What is my criteria? I don't recall stating what it was or who else was elite.

Why bother asking me questions if you're just going to post my opinion for me?

No, Romo is not elite, one playoff win in his career doesn't cut it. Big Ben is absolutely elite, Schaub is not, Vick is not, Ryan is not, Rivers is borderline but not.

It's more than pure stats, there also has to be context to the results, as well as high quality performance over multiple years, and repeated success late in games, late in the season, and throughout the playoffs.

 

[Rico444]

Well, I guess eli doesn't fit your criteria. He has had one season where he had ANY success in the playoffs. And where are these multiple seasons of great statistics? 25 picks last year.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I am not a Giants fan but right now the only QBs I would take i've worked Eli are named Tom and and Drew.

 

[Rico444]

And romo isn't elite because he only has one playoff win? Is it his fault his defense fell apart in 2008? His fault the offensive line played matador in 2009? These were excuses for eli, but you're using them to condemn romo.

 

[BlueMAB]

Well, I guess eli doesn't fit your criteria. He has had one season where he had ANY success in the playoffs. And where are these multiple seasons of great statistics? 25 picks last year.

Take a look at Favres numbers and then tell me he isn't elite because of the interceptions.

If you watched Eli, you'd see how many of his interceptions are a result of dropped passes by the wide receivers. It's mind numbingly annoying.

 

[BlueMAB]

And romo isn't elite because he only has one playoff win? Is it his fault his defense fell apart in 2008? His fault the offensive line played matador in 2009? These were excuses for eli, but you're using them to condemn romo.

That's just one reason. That and he can't hold the snap on a PAT. There are others, but what's the point? No matter what I say, you're going to put words in my mouth to argue with.

 

[Rico444]

So of the 25, how many weren't Eli's fault? That's still a very high number.

And Eli still hasn't met all of your criteria. He has had one season of success in the playoffs. Every season since, his team has fallen apart at the end of the season.

 

[BlueMAB]

To the above poster, as some one earlier in the thread said, this is a team sport. The Giants' terrific defense stepping up was the reason they made that run. Eli made some plays, there is no question, but you didn't need an elite QB to win the super bowl that year...not with that defense.

This ignores two facts (and is further evidence why you're wrong).

1) The Giants already lost to the Pats (at home) with "that defense"
2) The Giants would have lost to the Pats with "that defense" if Eli Manning hadn't orchestrated a 2 minute touchdown scoring drive to take the leade with less than 2 minutes in the game.

Basically you're argument is that Eli isn't elite because the defense wins games and he loses games. Right.

 

[Rico444]

That's just one reason. That and he can't hold the snap on a PAT. There are others, but what's the point? No matter what I say, you're going to put words in my mouth to argue with.

LOL, right. I'm using your own criteria when I ask questions. So maybe what you use to evaluate an elite quarterback is the problem here.

 

[BlueMAB]

So of the 25, how many weren't Eli's fault? That's still a very high number.

And Eli still hasn't met all of your criteria. He has had one season of success in the playoffs. Every season since, his team has fallen apart at the end of the season.

That was one season. Look at Brett Favre's career. He isn't elite?

It's Eli's fault he didn't tackle DeSean Jackson last year? That game was won, the defense collapsed and special teams choked, not sure how you can blame Eli.

Eli has engineered 4th quarter game winning comebacks since he took over the starting duties. Remember the Giants/Cowboys game in 2004?

The Giants collapses haven't been due to the play of Eli, in fact, they've happened in spite of his play. Defense, injuries, and highly quesitonable coaching decisions have been the main issues.

Eli has as many Super Bowl MVPs as Romo has playoff wins. Eli has as many rings as his brother Peyton. He also never had a team built around him (like Peyton) and never took over a Super Bowl caliber team (like Brady). So you can't look at stats alone.

Again, based on your definitio of elite, there are 6-7 elite QBs.......EVER. That's just silly.

 

[BlueMAB]

LOL, right. I'm using your own criteria when I ask questions. So maybe what you use to evaluate an elite quarterback is the problem here.

You listed the elite qb's for me, based on your presumptions before I ever said what my criteria was.

If my definition is the problem then what other QBs over the past 10 years are/have been elite? Who else besides Brady/Manning and Rodgers?

 

[Rico444]

This ignores two facts (and is further evidence why you're wrong).

1) The Giants already lost to the Pats (at home) with "that defense"
2) The Giants would have lost to the Pats with "that defense" if Eli Manning hadn't orchestrated a 2 minute touchdown scoring drive to take the leade with less than 2 minutes in the game.

Basically you're argument is that Eli isn't elite because the defense wins games and he loses games. Right.

1) the giants were playing at a different level in the playoffs than they did in the regular season, much like Uconn last year.

2) the defense gave up 14 points to what was probably the best offensive team ever. If anyone blamed the defense had they lost giving up 14 points, they would be crazy.

 

[Rico444]

That was one season. Look at Brett Favre's career. He isn't elite?

It's Eli's fault he didn't tackle DeSean Jackson last year? That game was won, the defense collapsed and special teams choked, not sure how you can blame Eli.

Eli has engineered 4th quarter game winning comebacks since he took over the starting duties. Remember the Giants/Cowboys game in 2004?

The Giants collapses haven't been due to the play of Eli, in fact, they've happened in spite of his play. Defense, injuries, and highly quesitonable coaching decisions have been the main issues.

Eli has as many Super Bowl MVPs as Romo has playoff wins. Eli has as many rings as his brother Peyton. He also never had a team built around him (like Peyton) and never took over a Super Bowl caliber team (like Brady). So you can't look at stats alone.

Again, based on your definitio of elite, there are 6-7 elite QBs.......EVER. That's just silly.

So we agree that football is a team sport? So why are you knocking romo for only winning one playoff game when it sure as hell wasnt his fault?

 

[BlueMAB]

So we agree that football is a team sport? So why are you knocking romo for only winning one playoff game when it sure as hell wasnt his fault?

It wasn't his fault he couldn't hold on to the snap on the PAT attempt?

We don't agree that football is a team sport because you keep holding defensive collapses against Eli Manning.

 

[BlueMAB]

LOL, right. I'm using your own criteria when I ask questions. So maybe what you use to evaluate an elite quarterback is the problem here.

Where did I say that they must meet ALL of the criteria?

If I were to use your logic that would mean Peyton Manning (and his one super bowl ring) isn't elite.

Maybe you should stop inventing arguments to disagree with?

 

[tykurez]

 

[BlueMAB]

1) the giants were playing at a different level in the playoffs than they did in the regular season, much like Uconn last year.

2) the defense gave up 14 points to what was probably the best offensive team ever. If anyone blamed the defense had they lost giving up 14 points, they would be crazy.

Which conveniently ignores the 35 points scored by the giants in the first game. Both defenses stepped heir game up