OT: Draymond Green suspended for Game 5

[TasteofUConn]

I get the angst about the officiating. It can be brutal. Love had a foul called on him for a block that was almost no contact. In a prior game, guy gives him a concussion from behind with an elbow to the head and there is no call.

Problem is, a call here and a call there can radically affect the game. Take guys out of a rhythm, get guys in early foul trouble. Establish a tone for picks and defending, allow guys to get more free on the outside.

Not claiming conspiracy (but not saying impossible), but any time there is a lot of money on the line, you've got to wonder . . .

It strikes me that the refs get too caught up in the crowd noise and reaction.

We'll see in game 7. Officiating will be crucial. And keep K. Love mostly on the bench. That experiment is over.

 

[lange10]

@kyleslamb that's 2 perfect games in a row for Lebron. You said demanding perfection from a man was ludicrous. While I never said I expected it I said it was most likely needed for the Cavs to win this series and that it was certainly possible because he is just THAT good. A third near perfect game from Lebron (which would likely ensure a victory) will seal his fate as the #2 player of all time and one of the most epic finals performances ever.

 

[Scoe]

Love has to do something for them in game 7 something set picks rebound maybe wipe lebron's ass anything. A war face at least

 

[superjohn]

I crack up every time I think back to Harrison Barnes thinking he's a max contract player.

 

[TasteofUConn]

Like Lebron hasn't done that several times, he's even done it at the end of series not shaking hands with the other team.

When he left Cleveland for Miami, I really, really disliked him. The whole "decision" thing was "look at me" lameness. The take-the-camera when he was dunked on in some clinic was embarrassing. The throwing the talc in the air was stupid.
But since then I've come to the conclusion that the dude has been famous since 8th grade, and, all things considered, he has done a pretty decent job of handling his fame. He seems like a genuinely good person.
Most importantly, I think that he'd be about the same person if he never played basketball again, because I think he views basketball as an unessential part of his life, which is quite the opposite of many sports stars, who live and die by their sport.

Of course, even when I disliked him, I always had massive respect for his game. Best all-around player I've ever seen.

 

[EBonz30]

@kyleslamb that's 2 perfect games in a row for Lebron. You said demanding perfection from a man was ludicrous. While I never said I expected it I said it was most likely needed for the Cavs to win this series and that it was certainly possible because he is just THAT good. A third near perfect game from Lebron (which would likely ensure a victory) will seal his fate as the #2 player of all time and one of the most epic finals performances ever.

I had LeBron in my top 5 of all time coming into the series, if he wins Sunday I will then shift him to top 3 of all time....


I am 30 years old so it is a little difficult to say this guy is better than him or LeBron is better than this guy..

He's definitely the second best player I've ever seen, with Jordan being the best.

 

[superjohn]

When he left Cleveland for Miami, I really, really disliked him. The whole "decision" thing was "look at me" lameness. The take-the-camera when he was dunked on in some clinic was embarrassing. The throwing the talc in the air was stupid.
But since then I've come to the conclusion that the dude has been famous since 8th grade, and, all things considered, he has done a pretty decent job of handling his fame. He seems like a genuinely good person.
Most importantly, I think that he'd be about the same person if he never played basketball again, because I think he views basketball as an unessential part of his life, which is quite the opposite of many sports stars, who live and die by their sport.

Of course, even when I disliked him, I always had massive respect for his game. Best all-around player I've ever seen.

I think he's a good guy and means well but he cares too much about wanting everyone to love him and it often times causes him to put his foot in his mouth when he opens it. There is no denying his immense talent and it would be hard to argue that he's not a top 5 player all-time. I thought he was having a lackluster finals but the last two games he has been epic, if he closes it out Sunday it will go down as one of the all-time performances.

 

[Burnsbros23]

Fouls were 25 to 25 last night. More fouls were called on the cavs the previous two games. The NBA is rigged stuff is nonsense. They can't make shots for Kyrie or Lebron.

You hit two guys in the nuts plus other flagrants how can you complain?

I don't think Mo Speights is the solution to their problem.

Harrison Barnes who was tremendous game 1-4. Has completely disappeared and then Igoudala was basically out the second half.

 

[champs99and04]

Some of the calls on Curry were questionable (what bothers me about them is not so much the call themselves, but the fact that they seem predetermined based on the result; they weren't going to call the foul on Steph until Irving lost the ball, and they weren't going to call the sixth until LeBron flopped), but for the most part, he has been his own worst enemy by playing recklessly defensively.

I haven't loved Golden State's coverage of pick-and-rolls. If you can't switch with Irving, you're better off trapping. If you soft hedge...he's hard to stop when he gets a head of steam going to the basket. I don't feel like Green played a good game last night - maybe the flagrant foul stuff was in his head, I don't know. If LeBron's going to drill some of the jumpers he hit last night, I'm not sure what you do, but Golden State has been far from schematically sound in recent games.

And as I say from my couch every night, Cleveland shouldn't be able to guard Golden State when they play Draymond at the five. It feels like they might be over-complicating things a little, and perhaps they're a bit spooked by some of the things LeBron and Thompson can do switching onto Steph. I still say, though, that if you spread them out and put the ball in Steph's hands, you should be fine (one assist last night from Steph is baffling).

 

[James]

@champs99and04 Yeah the problem is lebron has stepped up and completely turned draymond into a zero in this series. TT is a very versatile 'screen' and 'outside the paint' defender, so essentially lebron is playing center in CLE most effective lineup. Turning draymond into a below average player makes the splash bros job that much more difficult. If iggy is still hobbled, and Kerr is forced to use green on lebron, I really like CLE chances.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Some of the calls on Curry were questionable (what bothers me about them is not so much the call themselves, but the fact that they seem predetermined based on the result; they weren't going to call the foul on Steph until Irving lost the ball, and they weren't going to call the sixth until LeBron flopped), but for the most part, he has been his own worst enemy by playing recklessly defensively.

As was the blocking call on Love. They drew breath to blow their whistles before Curry left his feet (it was Curry who was driving, correct?). Everything goes both ways in officiating. Except when UK or Puke play.

 

[superjohn]

It's amazing the Warriors had the best record ever with this frontcourt. Bogut is a solid player but Ezeli, Verajao and Speights is dreadful. Technically Draymond is a pf in the Warriors system but he gets eaten up against teams with good bigs.

 

[TasteofUConn]

. . . they weren't going to call the foul on Steph until Irving lost the ball, and they weren't going to call the sixth until LeBron flopped

No doubt. I despise the fact that NBA refs wait until they see the result of the play, often, before blowing their whistles. The result is irrelevant - it was either a foul or it wasn't. They should pass a rule - blow your whistle immediately or don't blow it at all. Nothing worse than watching a guy crash into the lane, throw up a shot, with contact, the ball goes up, rolls around the rim, rolls off, then TWEEEEET, whistle. If it had gone, there would not have been a whistle. On one play in Atlantis I was screaming at the ref, who blew blew the whistle after the ball hit the ground. Really?

 

[Matrim55]

Technically Draymond is a pf in the Warriors system but he gets eaten up against teams with good bigs.

No he doesn't -- that's what makes the Dubs special.

The difference is that LeBron & this iteration of Thompson aren't just "good" bigs. LeBron is LeBron, and Thompson is one of the greatest offensive rebounders of the last 30 years, as well as an all-around defensive weapon other teams (save for OKC with Ibaka) just don't have.

When Cavaliers Become Warriors — The Ringer

Also worth noting that going by GameScore (which IMO is a pretty decent metric), LeBron just posted 2 of the 3 best finals games since 1984:

CLICK ME!

Still think the Dubs take it in 7.

 

[superjohn]

No he doesn't -- that's what makes the Dubs special.

The difference is that LeBron & this iteration of Thompson aren't just "good" bigs. LeBron is LeBron, and Thompson is one of the greatest offensive rebounders of the last 30 years, as well as an all-around defensive weapon other teams (save for OKC with Ibaka) just don't have.

When Cavaliers Become Warriors — The Ringer

Also worth noting that going by GameScore (which IMO is a pretty decent metric), LeBron just posted 2 of the 3 best finals games since 1984:

CLICK ME!

Still think the Dubs take it in 7.

Got destroyed by Adams, Kanter and Ibaka. Now getting destroyed by Thompson and Lebron.

 

[champs99and04]

Got destroyed by Adams, Kanter and Ibaka. Now getting destroyed by Thompson and Lebron.

He's had trouble scoring against length (38% shooting since the start of the OKC series), but it's a big overstatement to say he has been destroyed by those guys. They don't win the games that they have if that's the case.

 

[James]

Yeah thompson is an interesting defensive weapon, within this matchup his strengths seem to shine right? He is not a good rim protector however the 'gobert effect' style of defense has been eschewed in this series; we are seeing the ULTIMATE of small ball and perhaps the highest quality of execution ever seen on the hardwood.

Thompsons versatility to guard everyone from klay on down is something else and what made him a great prospect before his texas days, but its just funny how lebron is the best rim protector in the series heading into game 7. The reason why this matchup is legit is because Lebron and draymond are two players who fit a unique catagory (milsap maybe fits here, playoff durant i guess too)- 6'7-'6'9 guys who initiate pnr/push in transition and guard 1-5, . Lebron is like if you took draymond and added transcendent offensive talent though.

 

[kyleslamb]

He's had trouble scoring against length (38% shooting since the start of the OKC series), but it's a big overstatement to say he has been destroyed by those guys. They don't win the games that they have if that's the case.

I guess whether he's been 'destroyed' is a subjective debate, but he's definitely been much, much less effective against OKC and Cleveland.

Here are his per-36 totals in the regular season:

14.5 PPG, 9.9 RPG, 7.7 APG and 55.1% eFG (average game score based on per game averages, 15.2)

Here are his per-36 totals in the last 13 games (OKC/Cleveland)

11.5 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 4.6 APG and 42.9% eFG (average game score based on per game averages, 11.3)

The issue here is that Dramond, as part of the 'death lineup' works well against teams that don't have bigs who can defend 1-5 on switches, but teams that he's running up against late in the playoffs are equipped to handle that. He's not been nearly as impactful against these teams.

 

[champs99and04]

I guess whether he's been 'destroyed' is a subjective debate, but he's definitely been much, much less effective against OKC and Cleveland.

Here are his per-36 totals in the regular season:

14.5 PPG, 9.9 RPG, 7.7 APG and 55.1% eFG (average game score based on per game averages, 15.2)

Here are his per-36 totals in the last 13 games (OKC/Cleveland)

11.5 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 4.6 APG and 42.9% eFG (average game score based on per game averages, 11.3)

The issue here is that Dramond, as part of the 'death lineup' works well against teams that don't have bigs who can defend 1-5 on switches, but teams that he's running up against late in the playoffs are equipped to handle that. He's not been nearly as impactful against these teams.

Well, yeah, but it also works well because he can guard five positions and give them a ton of flexibility defensively. Golden State missed him more on that end in game five than on offense.

 

[kyleslamb]

Well, yeah, but it also works well because he can guard five positions and give them a ton of flexibility defensively. Golden State missed him more on that end in game five than on offense.

But the issue isn't whether he's still a good player to have on the floor, it's whether he makes Golden State that much better than everyone else. Against the last two teams Golden State has faced, they're currently 7-6 in these matchups. So the question is fairly being asked...how much of an advantage do they really have?

He's a good player either way, but he's being mitigated right now. I already showed you the dip in offensive numbers, but even defensively, this past game, the Cavs shot 75 percent in the paint this past game. That was something we were told wouldn't happen with Green back in the lineup. It still did.

 

[superjohn]

He's had trouble scoring against length (38% shooting since the start of the OKC series), but it's a big overstatement to say he has been destroyed by those guys. They don't win the games that they have if that's the case.

They beat OKC because Klay and Curry got hot and Durant and Westbrook did their late fourth quarter collapse. Adams was eating Draymond's lunch the whole series and Draymond couldn't finish around the rim.

 

[JSM1970]

Green is the most overrated player in sports, let alone NBA. He plays in a wide open style, throws passes to Klay, Steph and they make shots. And he's a total ah*le.

I love when they say he can defend every position, ridiculous. He was abused by Mozgov last year, Thompson this year, Adams too.

Can't wait for Sunday.

Got destroyed by Adams, Kanter and Ibaka. Now getting destroyed by Thompson and Lebron.

 

[Hoophound]

It may have already been said but LeBron was clobbered at least 10 times going to the basket with no call. The officiating was suspect in both directions in game 6. It wasn't unfair it just sucked.

My gut tells me the Warriors shoot well and win game 7 easily but I'm going Costanza on this one. LeBron proves he is still far and away the best player in the league and the Cavs make a historic comeback and win a close one on the road.

 

[TasteofUConn]

LeBron proves he is still far and away the best player in the league and the Cavs make a historic comeback and win a close one on the road.

LeBron could go 1 for 20 with 2 boards and zero assists and he's already proven he's far and away the best player in the world.

 

[champs99and04]

But the issue isn't whether he's still a good player to have on the floor, it's whether he makes Golden State that much better than everyone else. Against the last two teams Golden State has faced, they're currently 7-6 in these matchups. So the question is fairly being asked...how much of an advantage do they really have?

He's a good player either way, but he's being mitigated right now. I already showed you the dip in offensive numbers, but even defensively, this past game, the Cavs shot 75 percent in the paint this past game. That was something we were told wouldn't happen with Green back in the lineup. It still did.

The answer has been that, no, Golden State has not been that much better than everyone else. The Oklahoma City series could have gone either way, and some would argue they outright stole it due to a historic performance by Thompson in game six. Up to this point, Cleveland has played them even. I still think Golden State is better, but not much has occurred in this series to conclusively prove that they're overwhelmingly better.

Though I've conceded that Green did not play well in game six, that 75% figure surprises me. That is a fairy damning number, albeit in a one game sample that I think will prove to be an anomaly.

Still: I think the most dangerous thing we can do as analysts is react too strongly to a small sample of games. That's not to say they shouldn't be criticized, just that a few games - however pivotal they are - should not override an aggregate of work that has established their value. Kyrie got crushed after games one and two - since, he's playing at a level that will make it almost impossible to underrate him going forward. When Green had his way defensively in game four - and then watched as his team was eviscerated without him in game five - the conversation cast him in a light reserved for only a handful of players. Tristan Thompson, for much of the season, has been viewed as an immensely overpaid one-way player who allows defenses to send extra help at LeBron and Kyrie. Now he's a transformative player for Cleveland in a series that allows him to leverage his perimeter quickness with his offensive rebounding wizardry.

These things change quickly, and regardless of the outcome in game seven, I'm not going to think about any of the key players in an entirely new way, Draymond included. We knew there were guys who could cause him problems - unsurprisingly, the current league landscaping appears to be naturally selecting mobile big men who can operate in space and sustain spacing either as a rim-runner or spot-up shooter. I don't view the past 13 games as a referendum on Draymond's worth so much as I do a tribute to Ibaka, Adams, and Thompson. Those guys are very good players that you can win a championship with - put enough of them together, and you're going to get a long, competitive series with some give and take.