OT: Draymond Green suspended for Game 5

[Rocktheworld]

Some of the calls on Curry were questionable (what bothers me about them is not so much the call themselves, but the fact that they seem predetermined based on the result; they weren't going to call the foul on Steph until Irving lost the ball, and they weren't going to call the sixth until LeBron flopped), but for the most part, he has been his own worst enemy by playing recklessly defensively.

As was the blocking call on Love. They drew breath to blow their whistles before Curry left his feet (it was Curry who was driving, correct?). Everything goes both ways in officiating. Except when UK or Puke play.

 

[superjohn]

It's amazing the Warriors had the best record ever with this frontcourt. Bogut is a solid player but Ezeli, Verajao and Speights is dreadful. Technically Draymond is a pf in the Warriors system but he gets eaten up against teams with good bigs.

 

[TasteofUConn]

. . . they weren't going to call the foul on Steph until Irving lost the ball, and they weren't going to call the sixth until LeBron flopped

No doubt. I despise the fact that NBA refs wait until they see the result of the play, often, before blowing their whistles. The result is irrelevant - it was either a foul or it wasn't. They should pass a rule - blow your whistle immediately or don't blow it at all. Nothing worse than watching a guy crash into the lane, throw up a shot, with contact, the ball goes up, rolls around the rim, rolls off, then TWEEEEET, whistle. If it had gone, there would not have been a whistle. On one play in Atlantis I was screaming at the ref, who blew blew the whistle after the ball hit the ground. Really?

 

[Matrim55]

Technically Draymond is a pf in the Warriors system but he gets eaten up against teams with good bigs.

No he doesn't -- that's what makes the Dubs special.

The difference is that LeBron & this iteration of Thompson aren't just "good" bigs. LeBron is LeBron, and Thompson is one of the greatest offensive rebounders of the last 30 years, as well as an all-around defensive weapon other teams (save for OKC with Ibaka) just don't have.

When Cavaliers Become Warriors — The Ringer

Also worth noting that going by GameScore (which IMO is a pretty decent metric), LeBron just posted 2 of the 3 best finals games since 1984:

CLICK ME!

Still think the Dubs take it in 7.

 

[superjohn]

No he doesn't -- that's what makes the Dubs special.

The difference is that LeBron & this iteration of Thompson aren't just "good" bigs. LeBron is LeBron, and Thompson is one of the greatest offensive rebounders of the last 30 years, as well as an all-around defensive weapon other teams (save for OKC with Ibaka) just don't have.

When Cavaliers Become Warriors — The Ringer

Also worth noting that going by GameScore (which IMO is a pretty decent metric), LeBron just posted 2 of the 3 best finals games since 1984:

CLICK ME!

Still think the Dubs take it in 7.

Got destroyed by Adams, Kanter and Ibaka. Now getting destroyed by Thompson and Lebron.

 

[champs99and04]

Got destroyed by Adams, Kanter and Ibaka. Now getting destroyed by Thompson and Lebron.

He's had trouble scoring against length (38% shooting since the start of the OKC series), but it's a big overstatement to say he has been destroyed by those guys. They don't win the games that they have if that's the case.

 

[James]

Yeah thompson is an interesting defensive weapon, within this matchup his strengths seem to shine right? He is not a good rim protector however the 'gobert effect' style of defense has been eschewed in this series; we are seeing the ULTIMATE of small ball and perhaps the highest quality of execution ever seen on the hardwood.

Thompsons versatility to guard everyone from klay on down is something else and what made him a great prospect before his texas days, but its just funny how lebron is the best rim protector in the series heading into game 7. The reason why this matchup is legit is because Lebron and draymond are two players who fit a unique catagory (milsap maybe fits here, playoff durant i guess too)- 6'7-'6'9 guys who initiate pnr/push in transition and guard 1-5, . Lebron is like if you took draymond and added transcendent offensive talent though.

 

[kyleslamb]

He's had trouble scoring against length (38% shooting since the start of the OKC series), but it's a big overstatement to say he has been destroyed by those guys. They don't win the games that they have if that's the case.

I guess whether he's been 'destroyed' is a subjective debate, but he's definitely been much, much less effective against OKC and Cleveland.

Here are his per-36 totals in the regular season:

14.5 PPG, 9.9 RPG, 7.7 APG and 55.1% eFG (average game score based on per game averages, 15.2)

Here are his per-36 totals in the last 13 games (OKC/Cleveland)

11.5 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 4.6 APG and 42.9% eFG (average game score based on per game averages, 11.3)

The issue here is that Dramond, as part of the 'death lineup' works well against teams that don't have bigs who can defend 1-5 on switches, but teams that he's running up against late in the playoffs are equipped to handle that. He's not been nearly as impactful against these teams.

 

[champs99and04]

I guess whether he's been 'destroyed' is a subjective debate, but he's definitely been much, much less effective against OKC and Cleveland.

Here are his per-36 totals in the regular season:

14.5 PPG, 9.9 RPG, 7.7 APG and 55.1% eFG (average game score based on per game averages, 15.2)

Here are his per-36 totals in the last 13 games (OKC/Cleveland)

11.5 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 4.6 APG and 42.9% eFG (average game score based on per game averages, 11.3)

The issue here is that Dramond, as part of the 'death lineup' works well against teams that don't have bigs who can defend 1-5 on switches, but teams that he's running up against late in the playoffs are equipped to handle that. He's not been nearly as impactful against these teams.

Well, yeah, but it also works well because he can guard five positions and give them a ton of flexibility defensively. Golden State missed him more on that end in game five than on offense.

 

[kyleslamb]

Well, yeah, but it also works well because he can guard five positions and give them a ton of flexibility defensively. Golden State missed him more on that end in game five than on offense.

But the issue isn't whether he's still a good player to have on the floor, it's whether he makes Golden State that much better than everyone else. Against the last two teams Golden State has faced, they're currently 7-6 in these matchups. So the question is fairly being asked...how much of an advantage do they really have?

He's a good player either way, but he's being mitigated right now. I already showed you the dip in offensive numbers, but even defensively, this past game, the Cavs shot 75 percent in the paint this past game. That was something we were told wouldn't happen with Green back in the lineup. It still did.

 

[superjohn]

He's had trouble scoring against length (38% shooting since the start of the OKC series), but it's a big overstatement to say he has been destroyed by those guys. They don't win the games that they have if that's the case.

They beat OKC because Klay and Curry got hot and Durant and Westbrook did their late fourth quarter collapse. Adams was eating Draymond's lunch the whole series and Draymond couldn't finish around the rim.

 

[JSM1970]

Green is the most overrated player in sports, let alone NBA. He plays in a wide open style, throws passes to Klay, Steph and they make shots. And he's a total ah*le.

I love when they say he can defend every position, ridiculous. He was abused by Mozgov last year, Thompson this year, Adams too.

Can't wait for Sunday.

Got destroyed by Adams, Kanter and Ibaka. Now getting destroyed by Thompson and Lebron.

 

[Hoophound]

It may have already been said but LeBron was clobbered at least 10 times going to the basket with no call. The officiating was suspect in both directions in game 6. It wasn't unfair it just sucked.

My gut tells me the Warriors shoot well and win game 7 easily but I'm going Costanza on this one. LeBron proves he is still far and away the best player in the league and the Cavs make a historic comeback and win a close one on the road.

 

[TasteofUConn]

LeBron proves he is still far and away the best player in the league and the Cavs make a historic comeback and win a close one on the road.

LeBron could go 1 for 20 with 2 boards and zero assists and he's already proven he's far and away the best player in the world.

 

[champs99and04]

But the issue isn't whether he's still a good player to have on the floor, it's whether he makes Golden State that much better than everyone else. Against the last two teams Golden State has faced, they're currently 7-6 in these matchups. So the question is fairly being asked...how much of an advantage do they really have?

He's a good player either way, but he's being mitigated right now. I already showed you the dip in offensive numbers, but even defensively, this past game, the Cavs shot 75 percent in the paint this past game. That was something we were told wouldn't happen with Green back in the lineup. It still did.

The answer has been that, no, Golden State has not been that much better than everyone else. The Oklahoma City series could have gone either way, and some would argue they outright stole it due to a historic performance by Thompson in game six. Up to this point, Cleveland has played them even. I still think Golden State is better, but not much has occurred in this series to conclusively prove that they're overwhelmingly better.

Though I've conceded that Green did not play well in game six, that 75% figure surprises me. That is a fairy damning number, albeit in a one game sample that I think will prove to be an anomaly.

Still: I think the most dangerous thing we can do as analysts is react too strongly to a small sample of games. That's not to say they shouldn't be criticized, just that a few games - however pivotal they are - should not override an aggregate of work that has established their value. Kyrie got crushed after games one and two - since, he's playing at a level that will make it almost impossible to underrate him going forward. When Green had his way defensively in game four - and then watched as his team was eviscerated without him in game five - the conversation cast him in a light reserved for only a handful of players. Tristan Thompson, for much of the season, has been viewed as an immensely overpaid one-way player who allows defenses to send extra help at LeBron and Kyrie. Now he's a transformative player for Cleveland in a series that allows him to leverage his perimeter quickness with his offensive rebounding wizardry.

These things change quickly, and regardless of the outcome in game seven, I'm not going to think about any of the key players in an entirely new way, Draymond included. We knew there were guys who could cause him problems - unsurprisingly, the current league landscaping appears to be naturally selecting mobile big men who can operate in space and sustain spacing either as a rim-runner or spot-up shooter. I don't view the past 13 games as a referendum on Draymond's worth so much as I do a tribute to Ibaka, Adams, and Thompson. Those guys are very good players that you can win a championship with - put enough of them together, and you're going to get a long, competitive series with some give and take.

 

[champs99and04]

They beat OKC because Klay and Curry got hot and Durant and Westbrook did their late fourth quarter collapse. Adams was eating Draymond's lunch the whole series and Draymond couldn't finish around the rim.

You have to acknowledge that Green was a part of that collapse, though, right? Westbrook and Durant shot a combined 60 for 157 (38%) over the final three games of the series, due in no small part to Green's uncanny ability to protect the rim at his size.

Adams averaged 10 and 9 in the Golden State series. The series prior, against Duncan and Aldridge, he averaged 11 and 12. Certainly, Green was far from great offensively, but I don't think it's a fair characterization to say he lost the match-up handily.

 

[TasteofUConn]

but I don't think it's a fair characterization to say he lost the match-up handily.

Green is a fantastic, well-rounded, passionate player that any team would be lucky to have. He is a huge part of the success of the GSW. The problem is, people don't like him, and so they naturally, and irrationally, underrate his game. He's flat out awesome. It's the Dennis Rodman effect. Guy had 5 rings, two DPOY awards, averaged about 18 boards a game for two seasons, and was the best rebounder I ever saw. Snubbed for the Hall for a while because he wore dresses.

 

[Dogbreath2U]

Green is a fantastic, well-rounded, passionate player that any team would be lucky to have. He is a huge part of the success of the GSW. The problem is, people don't like him, and so they naturally, and irrationally, underrate his game. He's flat out awesome. It's the Dennis Rodman effect. Guy had 5 rings, two DPOY awards, averaged about 18 boards a game for two seasons, and was the best rebounder I ever saw. Snubbed for the Hall for a while because he wore dresses.

Well, the dress designs were ill-fitting and garish. Maybe he needed a better brand/designer.

 

[champs99and04]

So, there is a game on. For some reason I'm nervous to the point where I feel like it's a UConn game even though I don't have a dog in the fight. I guess I just want my favorite sport to be great on the greatest stage.

 

[UConn990411]

Lol Ezili.

 

[80shusky]

Varejao's flopping is so blatantly bad they should give him a flagrant on principle alone.

 

[tzznandrew]

Green having a great game.

Let's hope this stays close. It's been intense so far. Loving it.

 

[champs99and04]

Draymond is having One of Those Games. LeBron is playing the game like I have never seen it played (well, at least for maybe the 2013 finals).

 

[superjohn]

Draymond carrying them, Klay's shot is way off.

 

[tzznandrew]

Someone explain the third foul on Steph. That was nuts.

 

[superjohn]

Someone explain the third foul on Steph. That was nuts.

Horrible call, refs have been brutal.

 

[EBonz30]

Like I said a few weeks ago and I said before the series and I said before Game 6, LeBron is going to have to be top 3 player of history like to win this series, well he hasn't so far in Game 7....has to trust his jumper more..

Only other thing I would mention about this game so far is why is Lue keeping Tristan Thompson on the bench, he is your second or third best player, he must be on the floor....

10 three pointers to 1, ain't going to have a shot, can't get out scored by 30+ from the 3 line if your Cavs and hope to win..

That's all I have so far...

 

[Rocktheworld]

Like I said a few weeks ago and I said before the series and I said before Game 6, LeBron is going to have to be top 3 player of history like to win this series

He shouldn't. We should expect more than 13 points between Kyrie and Kevin Love.

 

[champs99and04]

Just awful coaching by Kerr to start the half there. Ezeli has no business in a game like this.

 

[Scoe]

Like I said a few weeks ago and I said before the series and I said before Game 6, LeBron is going to have to be top 3 player of history like to win this series, well he hasn't so far in Game 7....has to trust his jumper more..

Only other thing I would mention about this game so far is why is Lue keeping Tristan Thompson on the bench, he is your second or third best player, he must be on the floor....

10 three pointers to 1, ain't going to have a shot, can't get out scored by 30+ from the 3 line if your Cavs and hope to win..

That's all I have so far...

If Lebron loses he goes down as a Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, if he wins he's viewed as at least a top 3 player.