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OT: Derek Jeter

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Jeter is old school. No bad news, strictly business and heck of a player. His post season accomplishments are legendary.

As far as a day in and day out player.....his effort is second to none. Much props to him!
 
WhereistheDove? said:
I'm not sure I'd go as far to say he's underrated, but the attention he got has definitely created quite a few idiots who would actually say he was a complementary players. He was one of the all-time great offensive shortstops and outside of a handful of decent seasons, he was generally somewhat bad to downright terrible in the field, but overall certainly worthy when he is inevitably voted in to the HOF.
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Underrated in the sense that it became common practice to call him overrated and diminish just how good he was/is. I look at it like this. Growing up all I heard was how amazing Zeppelin was and being the I am I said, eh, i'll listen to something else then. Knowing that they were "so good" I stopped listening to them. Years later I went back and realized just how freaking good they were. In basketball terms, the same thing happened with Joe Dumars. For years, everybody who was anybody said he was underrated. And he was talked about so much as this underrated force that he actually became overrated. Did that make any sense? IDK it made sense to me.
 
boog204 said:
Underrated in the sense that it became common practice to call him overrated and diminish just how good he was/is. I look at it like this. Growing up all I heard was how amazing Zeppelin was and being the I am I said, eh, i'll listen to something else then. Knowing that they were "so good" I stopped listening to them. Years later I went back and realized just how freaking good they were. In basketball terms, the same thing happened with Joe Dumars. For years, everybody who was anybody said he was underrated. And he was talked about so much as this underrated force that he actually became overrated. Did that make any sense? IDK it made sense to me.
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I understand you, but you can make that argument for literally every great player in sports. There will always be that subset who finds something to nitpick about them.
 
UConNick said:
He represents quality and excellence, all without controversy. In an era of bad guys on roids, he was a white knight. He always did things right, an without complaint. He represents a classy emissary of efficiency, and he's an ambassador for the game, the city, and the country. He was an idol to countless kids, like myself, and a damn good one at that.
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I love Jeter but good lord you've put him above Mandela status.
 
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Seriously, what makes you think the Yankees will be terrible this season?
 
superjohn said:
I love Jeter but good lord you've put him above Mandela status.
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Yeah... That's just the little kid in me talking. But he really does mean a lot to me and every other Yankee fan that saw this model of excellence play growing up. I'm sure, for you Sox fans, that anyone who saw Ted Williams growing up would say similar things. You know, besides the winning. And the class.
 
WhereistheDove? said:
As incredible of an offensive-force as he was, his contribution to pointing out how much of a joke the gold glove award is was equally as important. But in all seriousness, heck of a player.
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Wow, where does that kinda remark come from. I don't think Derek Jeter gave himself gold gloves so for you to bring that up when responding to his retirement announcement after an illustrious and classy career is about bullcrap. He was in the most intense media market in the world for almost 20 years and conducted himself in a manner that brings honor and respect to himself and to the game of baseball. He put up some incredibly good numbers year after year and was an inspiration on and off the field for thousands if not millions of young kids and you gotta come up with gold glove crap. Unbelievable.
 
nomar said:
Oh I won't miss him. I respect him greatly, no question about it, but there's not even one small part of me that isn't happy to see him and Mo go. I'm a baseball fan second, Sox fan first. (Just like I'm a CBB fan second, UConn fan first.)
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Evidently you feel about Jeter the way I feel about Pedroia. A guy that comes to play everyday and gives you his all and doesn't quit. An opponent you always have to respect though maybe not like so much! Understandable!
 
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boog204 said:
Lifelong Yankee fan... Jeter was so constantly labeled overrated, that he actually is underrated. What I mean is that he was never the offensive or defensive player that ARod, Nomar, and the other steroid SS of that era were and the media tried to make him seem like he was. But yet, he was the best all around player out of all of them. His offensive numbers, especially considering his no 'roid connection are fantastic for a SS. The gold gloves were a joke. But that's happened with other guys as well. There is no one you'd rather have up in clutch situation, no baserunner you'd rather have go 1st to 3rd or score from second, and no fielder who you weren't certain would make the crucial play. He made the most out of every situation he was in and even if it wasn't pretty, he always got the job done. It's amazing how many times he'd just inside out a ball into right field for a game tying/winning hit. It wasn't awe inspiring other than that he did it, again. As a leader, he was second to none in the respect afforded to him by fans and teammates. The idea that he was "merely" a complimentary player is bafflingly dumb. Even when he was surrounded by huge players, he was still the heart and soul AND most dangerous offensive player on those teams. The Yanks don't win 5 world series without him.
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Wait a minute, every single player in that era is suspect for PEDs imo. Doesn't have to be roids; it can be anything to help recovery. Look at Lance Armstrong. He wasn't jacked at all.

I've seen enough "squeaky clean" guys get busted in sports to not pull punches anymore. I'd guess that Jeter didn't use, but I wouldn't be surprised that he did. As it is for any player.
 
B Vogel said:
Jeter - Over 162 game season average in his career 14HR, 79 RBI .312 BA 109 K's
Monster stats, really? And this is playing with some of the best offensive players of his era on his team
Are these superstar stats or complementary player stats? You tell me.
What would stats have been with a crappy team and surrounded by bums? Just sayin.
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Okay over that period of time name me the other players who have more hits, runs and a higher batting average. I won't even bring up World Series titles or playoff stats.
 
B Vogel said:
Jeter - Over 162 game season average in his career 14HR, 79 RBI .312 BA 109 K's
Monster stats, really? And this is playing with some of the best offensive players of his era on his team
Are these superstar stats or complementary player stats? You tell me.
What would stats have been with a crappy team and surrounded by bums? Just sayin.
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This will probably come as a shock to you but shortstops that can provide offense are really valuable. He has a .381 OBP over more than 10,000 at bats. The only shortstop with more offensive WAR in his career retired 100 years ago
 
msgordon said:
This will probably come as a shock to you but shortstops that can provide offense are really valuable. He has a .381 OBP over more than 10,000 at bats. The only shortstop with more offensive WAR in his career retired 100 years ago
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Honus Wagner? Pittsburgh Pirates 1897-1917?
 
superjohn said:
I love Jeter but good lord you've put him above Mandela status.
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Funniest part is that he compared him to Babe Ruth! You couldn't find a worse role model for society. Fortunately, he didn't grow up in the age of information.

Jeter wasn't even on MJ's, Ruth's, and Manning Montana's level in terms of being an icon either.
 
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superjohn said:
Okay over that period of time name me the other players who have more hits, runs and a higher batting average. I won't even bring up World Series titles or playoff stats.
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Jeter had longevity, but I would never have considered him the best player in baseball, in pretty much any of the years he played. Certified HOFer of course.

That tends to be the guys who make the hall. Players who can sustain it.
 
B Vogel said:
Jeter - Over 162 game season average in his career 14HR, 79 RBI .312 BA 109 K's
Monster stats, really? And this is playing with some of the best offensive players of his era on his team
Are these superstar stats or complementary player stats? You tell me.
What would stats have been with a crappy team and surrounded by bums? Just sayin.
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Career .312/.381/.446 line from a shortstop?! Yeah, that's pretty freaking good and certainly hall of fame and superstar stats out of a shortstop who sustained that as long as he did.
 
Buzzyboy said:
Wow, where does that kinda remark come from. I don't think Derek Jeter gave himself gold gloves so for you to bring that up when responding to his retirement announcement after an illustrious and classy career is about bullcrap. He was in the most intense media market in the world for almost 20 years and conducted himself in a manner that brings honor and respect to himself and to the game of baseball. He put up some incredibly good numbers year after year and was an inspiration on and off the field for thousands if not millions of young kids and you gotta come up with gold glove crap. Unbelievable.
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This is a joke, which is based in truth. I love that some people in this thread are telling me how much worse he is than I say he is and some people are telling me how much better. But seriously, this faction that has taken any negative comment towards him as an affront to god needs to chill out. He's a baseball player, who I've even said was one of the best offensive shortstops of all time and absolutely deserves to be in the HOF. But let's be serious, he was a terrible defensive player over the course of his career.
 
B Vogel said:
Jeter - Over 162 game season average in his career 14HR, 79 RBI .312 BA 109 K's
Monster stats, really? And this is playing with some of the best offensive players of his era on his team
Are these superstar stats or complementary player stats? You tell me.
What would stats have been with a crappy team and surrounded by bums? Just sayin.
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Idiotic post. He's among the greatest shortstops ever and could be argued the greatest ever (at least in the modern era). Those average stats, coupled with 100 runs scored, 20sbs, and a 380+obp (800+ops) every year hitting second (it's 16hr/yr) are historically superstar stats for a shortstop. No 'roids, leadership up the ass, clutch as a . He was absolutely a superstar and everyone knows it. He was an overrated defensive player in terms of winning gold gloves; mainly for a lack of range up the middle. He was, however, extremely reliable and made every play he could get to. For comparison sake some average year stats of the hall of fame middle infielders of Jeter's era (non roids guys) along with Honus Wagner, who we really can't compare to...

Honus Wagner: .328 6HR, 100rbi
Roberto Alomar: 300 14hr, 77rbi
Cal Ripken: 276 23hr 71rbi
Robin Yount 285 14hr 80rbi
Barry Larkin 291 15hr 71rbi
Derek Jeter 312 16hr 79rbi

And pray tell, who were these amazing offensive players that everyone loves to talk about that Jeter leeched off of? During the hey day of the yanks, he was the 2 hitter w/ O'Neill, Bernie, and Tino behind him. Those were all very good players but Jeter was consistently better than all of them. Those were the best offensive players of their era? Uh, no. After that when the Yanks went idiotic w/ the payroll he had a coming off roids and quickly diminishing Giambi, 2 decent years of a roided up and breaking down Sheffield, the ARod circus, and then a diminishing Tex. He had some of his worst years w/ those mega stars around him.
 
WhereistheDove? said:
This is a joke, which is based in truth. I love that some people in this thread are telling me how much worse he is than I say he is and some people are telling me how much better. But seriously, this faction that has taken any negative comment towards him as an affront to god needs to chill out. He's a baseball player, who I've even said was one of the best offensive shortstops of all time and absolutely deserves to be in the HOF. But let's be serious, he was a terrible defensive player over the course of his career.
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He wasn't terrible. He did not have great range up the middle. His defensive war was slightly below average. But he was pretty reliable. A terrible defensive shortstop is Jose Offerman or Eduardo Nunez or something like that...
 
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B Vogel said:
He was a perfect fit for the Yankees.

But really if you put him on KC, Milwaukee, Colorado, a Cleveland or another stiff team for his whole career, it would be Derek Who?
Great complimentary player, but he could never carry a team.
It did help him having gazillion dollar players batting around him his whole career.
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You're wrong, it helped the gazillion dollar players batting around Derek Jeter. He obviously got more media attention being in New York (and helping win 5 World Championships) but there are guys in other small markets whose aggregate totals are similar to his, who are pretty renowned guys. Paul Molitor and Robyn Yount come to mind. Oh yeah, what about Cal Ripken whose biggest claim to fame is that he played more consecutive games (a lot of games he should have missed and instead hurt his team) who was in a small market. He may have had more power but he had years that were pretty ordinary by any standard used. They were pretty well known guys, right? I don't think there's a Yankee whose ever had more respect from his teammates, other ballplayers or the media than Jeter and that's because he rates it. He's played high quality ball under the microscope of New York and done it with the utter most class you can display. He's worthy of his own bubblegum or candy bar and has been so much more of a credit to baseball than the steroid boys, Manny Ramirez and ARod and a ton of other guys. Look at Jim Rice who was probably close to the worst clutch hitter in the history of baseball and still somehow made the Hall of Fame. He had the personality of a block of wood and had the fielding skills of Edward Scissorhand and put up numbers in meaningless situations year after year, somehow getting into the Hall. Now they have Mr Personality of NESN.
 
In this thread - a lot of people showing their sheer ignorance of advanced baseball statistics.

Jeter is a first ballot hall of fame player wherever he played. Winning titles in New York with all of his memorable moments is what makes him a legend.
 
boog204 said:
He wasn't terrible. He did not have great range up the middle. His defensive war was slightly below average. But he was pretty reliable. A terrible defensive shortstop is Jose Offerman or Eduardo Nunez or something like that...
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We're going waaaaay to the end of the spectrum with those comparisons. He had a couple mediocre seasons tossed in there, but for the most part he was pretty awful as a defender. His UZR/150 over his career puts him 23rd out of 26th for qualified players over that same span, ahead of only Tony Womack, Hanley Ramirez, and Yuniesky Betancourt. Hall of fame hitter, which thankfully overshadowed this rather glaring weakness.
 
B Vogel said:
He was a perfect fit for the Yankees.

But really if you put him on KC, Milwaukee, Colorado, a Cleveland or another stiff team for his whole career, it would be Derek Who?
Great complimentary player, but he could never carry a team.
It did help him having gazillion dollar players batting around him his whole career.
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Your ridiculous numbers for Jeter based on 162 games is supposed to really mean something, isn't it. Well, you're probably a big Red Sox fan and do yourself a favor and check out Carl Yaztremski's totals over 162 games and you'll find out how totally ordinary this Hall of Famer is based on that formula. His stats are approximately the same as Dwight Evans who never got a sniff of the Hall of Fame but who played the most difficult position in Fenway (and maybe all of baseball) in rightfield and had more assists from throwing out guys from there than any right fielder in history. Meanwhile Yaz played probably the easiest position in baseball (left field in Fenway) where all you have to do is learn the caroms to be solid there. You've had some of the worst defensive fielders in baseball history play there because it's such an easy position including Ted Williams, Jim Rice and Manny Ramirez. None of them had any kind of fielding ability and so maybe throw Yaz out of the Hall and put in Dewie Evans. I had so much more respect for him (Evans) than Yaz and he was more of a clutch hitter than Yaz, as well. Did you know that Yaz batted under 270 (which sucks) more often than he batted over .300 (isn't that interesting?) Jeter was a good defensive player at probably the most difficult position on the diamond and an outstanding leader as well as a clutch hitter. His playoff stats are off the charts as is his All-Star game stats. I think you make yourself look foolish by trying to diminish Jeter. I think you diminish yourself, buddy!
 
Buzzyboy said:
Your ridiculous numbers for Jeter based on 162 games is supposed to really mean something, isn't it. Well, you're probably a big Red Sox fan and do yourself a favor and check out Carl Yaztremski's totals over 162 games and you'll find out how totally ordinary this Hall of Famer is based on that formula. His stats are approximately the same as Dwight Evans who never got a sniff of the Hall of Fame but who played the most difficult position in Fenway (and maybe all of baseball) in rightfield and had more assists from throwing out guys from there than any right fielder in history. Meanwhile Yaz played probably the easiest position in baseball (left field in Fenway) where all you have to do is learn the caroms to be solid there. You've had some of the worst defensive fielders in baseball history play there because it's such an easy position including Ted Williams, Jim Rice and Manny Ramirez. None of them had any kind of fielding ability and so maybe throw Yaz out of the Hall and put in Dewie Evans. I had so much more respect for him (Evans) than Yaz and he was more of a clutch hitter than Yaz, as well. Did you know that Yaz batted under 270 (which sucks) more often than he batted over .300 (isn't that interesting?) Jeter was a good defensive player at probably the most difficult position on the diamond and an outstanding leader as well as a clutch hitter. His playoff stats are off the charts as is his All-Star game stats. I think you make yourself look foolish by trying to diminish Jeter. I think you diminish yourself, buddy!
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Jeter is a HOFer, but don't kid yourself, he was not a good fielder.... at all.
 
Jeter was a good player an almost certain 1st ballot HoFer, but lets not overstate it. There are plenty of First Ballot HoFer's that don't transcend sports. Let me play Devil's advocate. If he did transcend sports, tell me how he transcended baseball first.

First Big Body Shortstop? Nope. Cal Ripken beat him by over a dozen years; A-Rod by at least one.
Best player in the league? Nope, not a single MVP award. Came in the top 3 a few years, but A-Rod has 3 MVPs and Ripken has 2.
Best player at his position? Arguable, which means there are just as (if not more) viable arguments against. A-Rod was the best SS in the league until 2004 and for a while Jeter wasn't even considered the best SS on his own team. Garciaparra was arguably a better all around [player who played] SS [in the field] through 2003.
He was steady and he played 19 years (17 can be considered full). IF you disregard the Worlds Series titles and NY, Jeter would be a stat accumulator. Alas the pressure of doing it in the Big Apple does count for something.

In my opinion a player has to make the Mt. Rushmore in to be considered transcendent. Jeter doesn't even make it for his own team (Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio). Berra & Whitey have a seat at the table before him as well.

By the way Transcendent Baseball players = Ruth, Cobb, Robinson, and Gibson
Transcendent Basketball players = Bird, Jordan, Wilt, and Magic
Transcendent Football players = Montana, LT, Brown, and Rice
Transcendent Football players = Orr, Howe, Gretzky and Richard.
 
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