O.T. Wells Report out: "More probable than not Patriots altered footballs", Brady likely aware

[toadfoot]

I'm hopeful that you don't serve on any juries. How many people are executed in Texas annually? With circumstantial evidence that most courts would throw out I hear "He didn't need to do this to win" as if it's a definitive fact based on text messages between two guys who didn't seem to like Brady much? You'd convict him and throw him to the wolves? If Texas juries are that apt to convict on that damning MAYBE and PROBABLY, how many innocent men might have wrongfully been put to death. I thought that there was a level of proof needed before you'd impune someone's reputation but evidently the NFL (and you) don't think so. I happen to think you'd need to know more. Have a smoking gun. Before you go after one of the most successful quarterbacks in the history of the NFL you should KNOW something, not think something. I know Ray Rice beat the hell out of his girlfriend, I don't think he might have. I don't need to think that the scumbag that is now on the Cowboy roster beat the snot out of his fiancée. I know! Until such time as the NFL knows, they should shut the hell up.

Studies done based on the work done by the Innocence Project have concluded that it's likely that ~15% of people currently incarcerated for serious crimes have been wrongfully convicted.

I'm with you, the Wells Report is a joke and any reasonable reading of it demonstrates a clear bias on the part of the investigators and even then they have zero evidence that the balls were even deflated other than by environmental conditions.

 

[meyers7]

If anyone has to try this hard to prove they are innocent, they probably aren't.

If anyone tries to prove someone is guilty and can't, they probably aren't.

 

[meyers7]

I am sure that the official in charge of testing the inflation of footballs prior to the game had two uncalibrated gauges (neither of which has since been tested to determine accuracy) that read .5 psi different pressures (so around 30-50% of the disputed pressure of footballs in question.)

There is the biggest problem. Without calibrated gauges, there is no evidence the balls where actually underinflated. Similar to a driver who gets stopped with a radar gun. Unless that gun is calibrated, not gonna hold up.

It is clear that Brady prefers a ball inflated to league minimum, but there is nothing to connect him to an attempt to introduce balls into play that were less than league minimums.

Second biggest thing.

 

[meyers7]

Just for all the self righteous Patriot/Brady/Belichick haters on here.

http://yourteamcheats.com/

 

[Orangutan]

Nope that's lawyer for we have no credible evidence so we are going to make a conclusion that justifies our fees, while still hedging enough that we can't be called on it.

More probably than not = preponderance of evidence, which was the standard of proof they were using. I'm very familiar with that standard because my firm is prepping for a civil trial in June that will also be under that standard. But don't take my word for it. From Sports Illustrated's legal expert:

First, the report employs the burden of persuasion found in civil trials: “more likely than not” or preponderance of evidence. This was expected, as the league's Policy on Integrity of the Game & Enforcement of Competitive Rules requires it. Wells was thus barred from using the higher “beyond a reasonable doubt” burden found in criminal trials. Internal investigations also normally use the preponderance of evidence burden or a burden akin to it.

 

[Orangutan]

Just for all the self righteous Patriot/Brady/Belichick haters on here.

http://yourteamcheats.com/

Cute site but all they document on my favorite team, the Bills, within the last 25 years is failing to report a Mario Williams wrist injury that caused him to miss 0 games.

 

[meyers7]

Cute site but all they document on my favorite team, the Bills, within the last 25 years is failing to report a Mario Williams wrist injury that caused him to miss 0 games.

Well I didn't read through all of them. And I'd never take the time to read about the Bills.

Just like deflating self-righteous people's heads.

 

[toadfoot]

The full quote was - "In sum, the data did not provide a basis for us to determine with absolute certainty whether there was or was not tampering as the analysis of such data ultimately is dependent upon assumptions and information that is not certain. However, based on all of the information provided to us, particularly regarding the timing and sequencing of the measurements conducted by the game officials at halftime, and on our testing and analyses, we conclude that within the range of game characteristics most likely to have occurred on Game Day, we have identified no set of credible environmental or physical factors that completely accounts for the additional loss in air pressure exhibited by the Patriots game balls as compared to the loss in air pressure exhibited by the Colts game balls measured during halftime of the AFC Championship Game."

Reads a little bit different in context. And that was just a footnote to the appendix with the scientific testing data in it.

The real conclusion was - "Based on the evidence developed in connection with the investigation and summarized in this Report, we have concluded that it is more probable than not that New England Patriots personnel participated in violations of the NFL Playing Rules and were involved in a deliberate attempt to circumvent those rules."

That's lawyer for - "According to our report, you did it. Book 'em Roger!"

I love the section where the report says, "we have identified no set of credible environmental or physical factors that completely accounts for the additional loss in air pressure exhibited by the Patriots game balls as compared to the loss in air pressure exhibited by the Colts game balls measured during halftime of the AFC Championship Game".

Among the flaws with this statement, which in my opinion shows the clear bias of this report, is that no one knows the psi of the Colt's game balls prior to kickoff so there's no way to determine how much pressure they lost. Secondly, they may not have been able to determine any environmental factors that would result in a drop from 12.5 psi to ~11.0 psi, but Carnegie Mellon University was.

 

[Paul1969]

oh well. justice has been served .. only 4 games though ....

Justice if you mean by NFL fans voting they don't like the Pats and having no credible evidence or proof to support the penalites. Then yes, justice by your sick definition has been served

 

[triaddukefan]

Justice if you mean by NFL fans voting they don't like the Pats and having no credible evidence or proof to support the penalites. Then yes, justice by your sick definition has been served

Meh.... Honestly it doesnt effect me or the teams that I root for... just tired of reading and hearing grown men whining and crying about it like little girls. It would be nice to be able to turn on a sports talk radio show and not have listen to this crap.

 

[Paul1969]

Meh.... Honestly it doesnt effect me or the teams that I root for... just tired of reading and hearing grown men whining and crying about it like little girls. It would be nice to be able to turn on a sports talk radio show and not have listen to this crap.

If you don't like all the chatter about it then why contribute to that chatter then?

 

[toadfoot]

Meh.... Honestly it doesnt effect me or the teams that I root for... just tired of reading and hearing grown men whining and crying about it like little girls. It would be nice to be able to turn on a sports talk radio show and not have listen to this crap.

That's a bit disingenuous. Any action that penalizes 1 team unfairly helps the other 31 teams. That help may be greater or lesser depending on conference, division, schedule, etc., but there's no question that ALL those 31 teams are helped to some degree.

 

[triaddukefan]

If you don't like all the chatter about it then why contribute to that chatter then?

The NBA Draft isnt until late June.... NFL training camps dont open until late July.... the IAAF World Track and Field Championships dont start until August 22, College Football doesnt start until late August..... College basketball is off until November..... there is a definite sports lull..... figured I through out a few pot shots to stave off the boredom of mid May.

 

[triaddukefan]

That's a bit disingenuous. Any action that penalizes 1 team unfairly helps the other 31 teams. That help may be greater or lesser depending on conference, division, schedule, etc., but there's no question that ALL those 31 teams are helped to some degree.

I cant see how it helps the Carolina Panthers...... I guess you could say it helps the Steelers..... but the Steelers will be playing without its top offensive player..... and on the road..... and against a fired up Patriot team. Unless the Steeler defense has improved dramatically since last season..... I expect NE to come out victorious... with or without Brady. Those are the only two teams I truly care for.

 

[NewCorn]

Ex-Jets and Retired Pro Bowl quarterback Jeff Blake confessed in an interview that removing air from footballs was common when he played in the NFL from 1992-2005.

"I'm just going to let the cat of the bag, every team does it, every game, it has been since I played," the ex-Jets QB said Wednesday in a radio interview on the "Midday 180" show on Nashville's 104.5 The Zone. "Cause when you take the balls out of the bag, they are rock hard. And you can't feel the ball as well. It's too hard.

"Everybody puts the pin in and takes just enough air out of the ball that you can feel it a little better. But it's not the point to where it's flat. So I don't know what the big deal is. It's not something that's not been done for 20 years."

Blake says that he'd order ball boys to let air out of his footballs just before the start of games during his entire NFL career, which included time with the Jets in 1992.

Everybody goes 10 miles per hour over the speed limit, and when the police stops you, you shut up and pay the ticket, unless you are selfish and arrogant.

 

[CL82]

More probably than not = preponderance of evidence, which was the standard of proof they were using. I'm very familiar with that standard because my firm is prepping for a civil trial in June that will also be under that standard. But don't take my word for it. From Sports Illustrated's legal expert:

First, the report employs the burden of persuasion found in civil trials: “more likely than not” or preponderance of evidence. This was expected, as the league's Policy on Integrity of the Game & Enforcement of Competitive Rules requires it. Wells was thus barred from using the higher “beyond a reasonable doubt” burden found in criminal trials. Internal investigations also normally use the preponderance of evidence burden or a burden akin to it.

Thanks counselor. I appreciate your expertise. So the preponderance of the evidence standard, that’s used for civil cases where the end result is money be paid from one party to another party. In this case we are talking about a sanction that prevents Brady from playing for four games. Isn’t that type of restriction of liberty usually governed by a reasonable doubt standard? I don’t particularly have a lot of comfort with that type of decision being made based upon a 50.000000000001% likelihood. In your professional expertise, would the evidence presented meet a reasonable doubt standard?

 

[easttexastrash]

If anyone tries to prove someone is guilty and can't, they probably aren't.

The NFL doesn't agree with you, apparently. Everyone can see this for what it is other than Pats fans.

 

[easttexastrash]

Why am I not surprised the point of my post completely eluded you!

I guess because I looked over all of the BS that was in it.

 

[pinotbear]

Everybody goes 10 miles per hour over the speed limit, and when the police stops you, you shut up and pay the ticket, unless you are selfish and arrogant.

The problem with this analogy, NewCorn, is that the penalty for speeding 10 mph is a relatively modest fine. The penalty levied against the Pats and Brady for that 10 mph is more that of a significant felony.

 

[JS]

Thanks counselor. I appreciate your expertise. So the preponderance of the evidence standard, that’s used for civil cases where the end result is money be paid from one party to another party. In this case we are talking about a sanction that prevents Brady from playing for four games. Isn’t that type of restriction of liberty usually governed by a reasonable doubt standard?

The analogy to a civil case is closer than to a criminal case, but inexact.

Civil cases can result in injunctions against certain behavior, so that's a loss of liberty in a sense. But not loss of liberty to do one's job.

In a civil case, there are interrogatories and motions for discovery that require the other side to produce the facts within its possession. There are various grounds for objection, but you can't just say "No, I don't think I'll give you that." So Brady was better off on this point than he'd be in court.

On the other hand, in a criminal case, the defendant enjoys both the higher "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard (which the findings here would obviously never meet) and a right against self-incrimination.

The standards here are not, of course, actual court standards. Essentially, the NFL's power to impose sanctions is a contractual power. In an appeal, the team, the Union, the player and the league must find their justification in the contracts that bind them all together, elucidated to an extent by past instances that they all lived with as resolutions.

 

[Orangutan]

Thanks counselor. I appreciate your expertise. So the preponderance of the evidence standard, that’s used for civil cases where the end result is money be paid from one party to another party. In this case we are talking about a sanction that prevents Brady from playing for four games. Isn’t that type of restriction of liberty usually governed by a reasonable doubt standard? I don’t particularly have a lot of comfort with that type of decision being made based upon a 50.000000000001% likelihood. In your professional expertise, would the evidence presented meet a reasonable doubt standard?

For what it's worth, I'm not a lawyer, but I've been a paralegal for the last 5 years. To quote Jay-z, "I ain't passed the bar but I know a little bit"

I think preponderance of evidence is common for internal investigations. In the case of the NFL, there's a union and I assume anything regarding player discipline is collectively bargained.

 

[NewCorn]

The problem with this analogy, NewCorn, is that the penalty for speeding 10 mph is a relatively modest fine. The penalty levied against the Pats and Brady for that 10 mph is more that of a significant felony.

Good point, pintobear, but Brady and the Pats did the equivalent of spitting in the policeman's face; they refused to make a witness available, and refused to turn over Brady's related phone records, even though the investigators offered to allow Brady's lawyers to simply tell them what was in the specified data rather than look themselves. It may be a simple traffic stop, but if you refuse to cooperate with the police you may end up in a cell.

 

[meyers7]

The NFL doesn't agree with you, apparently. Everyone can see this for what it is other than Pats fans.

Well the NFL has a worse track record than even the Pats.

 

[meyers7]

Everybody goes 10 miles per hour over the speed limit, and when the police stops you, you shut up and pay the ticket, unless you are selfish and arrogant.

If the radar gun is not calibrated, you're stupid if you just shut up and pay the ticket.

 

[NewCorn]

If the radar gun is not calibrated, you're stupid if you just shut up and pay the ticket.

Well, meyers7, I knew I was speeding, so I paid the ticket without checking the calibration of the radar gun. I was wrong no matter the condition of the radar gun.

 

[Paul1969]

The NFL doesn't agree with you, apparently. Everyone can see this for what it is other than Pats fans.

The nFL has absolutely no proof, they are simply appeasing the haters of the PATS. basically trial by public opinion.....mostly cuz that public's favorite NFL teams sucks so they need someone to hate when they lose in the playoffs

 

[calpedaler]

Meh.... Honestly it doesnt effect me or the teams that I root for... just tired of reading and hearing grown men whining and crying about it like little girls. It would be nice to be able to turn on a sports talk radio show and not have listen to this crap.

Little boys whine as much as little girls.

 

[Aluminny69]

Good point, pintobear, but Brady and the Pats did the equivalent of spitting in the policeman's face; they refused to make a witness available, and refused to turn over Brady's related phone records, even though the investigators offered to allow Brady's lawyers to simply tell them what was in the specified data rather than look themselves. It may be a simple traffic stop, but if you refuse to cooperate with the police you may end up in a cell.

Brady was under pressure from the Players Union NOT to submit his text messages, as it would set a dangerous precedent. Do you think your employer should be able to force you to submit your emails and text messages?

 

[easttexastrash]

Brady was under pressure from the Players Union NOT to submit his text messages, as it would set a dangerous precedent. Do you think your employer should be able to force you to submit your emails and text messages?

The NFL cannot force Brady to submit his texts and emails. But if my employer needed proof that I was not guilty of an act that put my employment in jeopardy I would gladly present my texts and emails to prove my innocence.

 

[easttexastrash]

Little boys whine as much as little girls.

Do grown men whine as much as little boys?