O.T. Wells Report out: "More probable than not Patriots altered footballs", Brady likely aware | Page 9 | The Boneyard

O.T. Wells Report out: "More probable than not Patriots altered footballs", Brady likely aware

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I think there is one thing this controversy has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Tom Brady should beef up his security. There are a lot of fairly creepy man crushes for mister Brady going on in Pats nation.
 

easttexastrash

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Investigators of the Philly train derailment are asking to see the phone records of the traun's aviator to see if he was texting or on the phone right before the crash. Should he refuse?
 

UcMiami

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Investigators of the Philly train derailment are asking to see the phone records of the traun's aviator to see if he was texting or on the phone right before the crash. Should he refuse?
Very different situation - he can certainly refuse but if he does it is just a stalling tactic as this will end up with a court order to turn it over, or for the phone company to release the information. Brady and a standard employee faced by a management fishing expedition were/are not in court, and did not/would not have any protections that being in court affords including the right to defend oneself and ask awkward questions of the other side - like who in the league office released damning and totally inaccurate PSI readings that said all the balls tested were 2 lbs. under inflated (which was the point at which this really took off as a 'scandal')
 

UcMiami

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I just came across this little piece of information that was new to me: Exponent - the scientific research firm hired by Wells and the NFL has a history of being on the wrong side of scientific data and history:
Produced studies in defense of their clients that:
1. Second hand smoke does not cause cancer
2. Asbestos does not cause cancer
3. Chevron dumping of toxic chemicals in the rainforest was not responsible for a spike in cancer in the area (Chevron board member was largest stock holder in Exponent!)
Since the whole basis of the Wells conclusions is based on their research being unable to find atmospheric conditions to explain the different PSI readings, maybe Kraft should spend a little of his money on another 'expert' firm to prove that atmospheric conditions can explain all of the variations in PSI readings - or just pay Exponent more money than the NFL paid them to revisit the issue!!!
 

toadfoot

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I think there is one thing this controversy has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Tom Brady should beef up his security. There are a lot of fairly creepy man crushes for mister Brady going on in Pats nation.

Wrong. What this controversy proves is that there are at least some people would prefer that allegations of wrong doing be decided by empirical facts not innuendo, speculation, envy and bias.
 

toadfoot

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I just came across this little piece of information that was new to me: Exponent - the scientific research firm hired by Wells and the NFL has a history of being on the wrong side of scientific data and history:
Produced studies in defense of their clients that:
1. Second hand smoke does not cause cancer
2. Asbestos does not cause cancer
3. Chevron dumping of toxic chemicals in the rainforest was not responsible for a spike in cancer in the area (Chevron board member was largest stock holder in Exponent!)
Since the whole basis of the Wells conclusions is based on their research being unable to find atmospheric conditions to explain the different PSI readings, maybe Kraft should spend a little of his money on another 'expert' firm to prove that atmospheric conditions can explain all of the variations in PSI readings - or just pay Exponent more money than the NFL paid them to revisit the issue!!!

Just a minor correction. Exponent does concede that some of the measured difference in pressure that occurred from pre-kickoff to halftime is a direct result of the Ideal Gas Law, if the Wells theory that Anderson used the non-logo gauge to perform the pre-kickoff measurement. The problem with that is that Anderson claimed to use the logo gauge for that measurement and only upon continued questioning admitted the "possibility" that he had used the non-logo gauge. As has been pointed out in a couple of analyses that I've read, the average drop in pressure of all 12 Patriot's footballs was within the Gas Law predicted range if Anderson in fact was correct when he claimed to use the logo gauge.

That's one of the major issues I have with the investigation. Wells questioning was not that of an objective fact finder, but that of an adversarial questioner who was attempting to discredit Anderson's initial claim. And it's clear Wells NEEDED to discredit Anderson's claim or the entire hypotheses that someone deliberately removed air from the footballs crumbles.
 

easttexastrash

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Very different situation - he can certainly refuse but if he does it is just a stalling tactic as this will end up with a court order to turn it over, or for the phone company to release the information. Brady and a standard employee faced by a management fishing expedition were/are not in court, and did not/would not have any protections that being in court affords including the right to defend oneself and ask awkward questions of the other side - like who in the league office released damning and totally inaccurate PSI readings that said all the balls tested were 2 lbs. under inflated (which was the point at which this really took off as a 'scandal')

But if he doesn't willingly turn over his phone does it imply that he has something to hide? That would be the public opinion if he doesn't cooperate fully.
 

toadfoot

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But if he doesn't willingly turn over his phone does it imply that he has something to hide? That would be the public opinion if he doesn't cooperate fully.

Not at all. He could simply be trying to protect the privacy of others. And public opinion should play absolutely no part in this investigation.

There is NFL precedent for punishing a player for "not cooperating". Favre was fined $50K for not turning over text messages under league rules. I would have no problem with a similar punishment for Brady, but the suspension/fine and loss of draft picks is way beyond what was has proven even using the "preponderance of evidence" standard.

In fact, as I've pointed out in other posts, if Anderson in fact used the logo gauge, as he claimed, and which Wells discarded as incorrect with utterly no basis to do so, there's no evidence that the pressure loss was beyond what the Ideal Gas Law would predict. In other words, not only did Brady/McNally/Jastremski not orchestrate/participate in removing air, it never happened.
 

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This bit about McNally being called "the deflator" because he was trying to lose weight -- good grief. I hope that lawyer didn't strain something clutching at straws.

At least both sides have hired quality bs artists.
 
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But if he doesn't willingly turn over his phone does it imply that he has something to hide? That would be the public opinion if he doesn't cooperate fully.
Other sports experts on ESPN today said no major sports person would or should ever turn over their phone....to the NFL...we are talking about air in footballs here folks--get a grip!
 

meyers7

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But if he doesn't willingly turn over his phone does it imply that he has something to hide?
Probably, but not text messages he had sent to the 2 equipment guys. They got their cell phones, so anything Brady would have sent to them, they'd already have. So there's nothing to hide there. I imagine it was more in the order of text messages about say the idiocy of the NFL and/or Goodell that Brady didn't want out in the public.
 
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Since the whole basis of the Wells conclusions is based on their research being unable to find atmospheric conditions to explain the different PSI readings, maybe Kraft should spend a little of his money on another 'expert' firm to prove that atmospheric conditions can explain all of the variations in PSI readings - or just pay Exponent more money than the NFL paid them to revisit the issue!!!
He has - a nobel prize winning chemist:

http://wellsreportcontext.com/mackinnons-scientific-conclusion/
 

easttexastrash

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Not at all. He could simply be trying to protect the privacy of others. And public opinion should play absolutely no part in this investigation.

There is NFL precedent for punishing a player for "not cooperating". Favre was fined $50K for not turning over text messages under league rules. I would have no problem with a similar punishment for Brady, but the suspension/fine and loss of draft picks is way beyond what was has proven even using the "preponderance of evidence" standard.

In fact, as I've pointed out in other posts, if Anderson in fact used the logo gauge, as he claimed, and which Wells discarded as incorrect with utterly no basis to do so, there's no evidence that the pressure loss was beyond what the Ideal Gas Law would predict. In other words, not only did Brady/McNally/Jastremski not orchestrate/participate in removing air, it never happened.

This question was not about Brady, it was about the train aviator.
 

easttexastrash

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Other sports experts on ESPN today said no major sports person would or should ever turn over their phone....to the NFL...we are talking about air in footballs here folks--get a grip!

My question was not about Brady, it was about the aviator on the train that derailed in Philly. If he refuses to turn over his cell phone records right before the crash does that give the impression that he has something to hide?
 

Icebear

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But if he doesn't willingly turn over his phone does it imply that he has something to hide? That would be the public opinion if he doesn't cooperate fully.
Or does it simply mean he was complying with the NFLPA's saying he shouldn't turn them over.
 

easttexastrash

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Or does it simply mean he was complying with the NFLPA's saying he shouldn't turn them over.

Them he followed bad advise, IMO. He could have turned over his phone records and proven that there was nothing to hide.
 

UcMiami

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Them he followed bad advise, IMO. He could have turned over his phone records and proven that there was nothing to hide.

And then every other player ever involved in an investigation would be presented with precedence of Tom having done so - which is why unions try to control how especially their star players respond to issues like this.

It is similar to what happens with other things like radar guns - when they were first introduced they were not immediately accepted in court. The manufactures had to defend their accuracy in numerous cases until 'legal precedence' could be established, and they are now 'accepted', though a good lawyer can challenge the 'maintenance' and 'training' of the operators and still get the readings thrown out.
 

UcMiami

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This bit about McNally being called "the deflator" because he was trying to lose weight -- good grief. I hope that lawyer didn't strain something clutching at straws.

At least both sides have hired quality bs artists.
If you actually read the full rebuttal their is an actual text message that uses 'deflate' in exactly this context between the two.
 
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Not at all. He could simply be trying to protect the privacy of others. And public opinion should play absolutely no part in this investigation.

There is NFL precedent for punishing a player for "not cooperating". Favre was fined $50K for not turning over text messages under league rules. I would have no problem with a similar punishment for Brady, but the suspension/fine and loss of draft picks is way beyond what was has proven even using the "preponderance of evidence" standard.

In fact, as I've pointed out in other posts, if Anderson in fact used the logo gauge, as he claimed, and which Wells discarded as incorrect with utterly no basis to do so, there's no evidence that the pressure loss was beyond what the Ideal Gas Law would predict. In other words, not only did Brady/McNally/Jastremski not orchestrate/participate in removing air, it never happened.

Goodell will rule on the appeal! The NFL sycophants will say he's allowed to, but come on! If they were SO sure of their case, they wouldn't be doing this!
 

toadfoot

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This question was not about Brady, it was about the train aviator.

Sorry, my bad.

However, that doesn't fundamentally alter my earlier post. You should never voluntarily cooperate in a situation where you're a potential suspect without legal counsel.

Allow me tell a story that happened to the child of a neighbor several years ago. The child, let's call him/her C, was a jr. in high school with aspirations of attending one of the military academies. C was an honor student who had never been in any trouble. I was home one afternoon when the police arrived at C's house after school. Knowing that C's parents were at work I wondered over to see what was up. I was promptly approached by a cop and ordered to remain on the sidewalk while his partner went to the door. I heard the cop at the door ask C if he could examine C's cell phone. I attempted to intervene to tell C not to do so and was swiftly threatened with arrest. C retrieved the cell and handed it the cop who began "fat fingering" it.
It turned out that a bomb threat had been called into the high school from that cell phone. C was arrested and the local DA announced that C would be charged as an adult and facing 5 years in federal prison. C's teacher came forward to claim that C had been in the lab at the and couldn't possibly have made the call, but neither the DA or C had a slam dunk case either way. The DA finally offered a plea deal that allowed C to plead nolo contender, which resulted in probation, but C lost any chance to attend the military academy. A few months later a few students came forward to report that another individual, I'll call them J, who had been released from juvenile detention only a week prior to the bomb threat, had confessed to them that he had made the call and C had taken the fall. I explained to these fellow students that he had simply been walking by the classroom, noticed that it was empty, but spotted several backpacks, including C's. Upon spying C's cell, J simply saw a crime of opportunity and called in the bomb threat. Sadly, the DA and police having already 'solved' the case refused to take any action.
The moral of the story is don't cooperate without the advice of legal counsel. If C had refused to provide their cell it's possible that DNA evidence could have revealed the fact that someone else had used the phone.
And yes, this a true story that happened to a high school friend of my son.
I'm traveling and typing this on my phone so forgive the typos.
 
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