O.T. Wells Report out: "More probable than not Patriots altered footballs", Brady likely aware

[calpedaler]

Do grown men whine as much as little boys?

Probably more

 

[UcMiami]

The analogy to a civil case is closer than to a criminal case, but inexact.

Civil cases can result in injunctions against certain behavior, so that's a loss of liberty in a sense. But not loss of liberty to do one's job.

In a civil case, there are interrogatories and motions for discovery that require the other side to produce the facts within its possession. There are various grounds for objection, but you can't just say "No, I don't think I'll give you that." So Brady was better off on this point than he'd be in court.

On the other hand, in a criminal case, the defendant enjoys both the higher "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard (which the findings here would obviously never meet) and a right against self-incrimination.

The standards here are not, of course, actual court standards. Essentially, the NFL's power to impose sanctions is a contractual power. In an appeal, the team, the Union, the player and the league must find their justification in the contracts that bind them all together, elucidated to an extent by past instances that they all lived with as resolutions.

The problem with looking to law courts - civil or criminal - is that this investigation and subsequent finding of guilt is completely one-sided. The prosecutor gets to ask all the questions, choose all the witnesses, select all the evidence to be considered and present all the summing up, to the judge/jury who is/are anything but impartial. And the only 'expert' testimony is provided and paid for by the prosecution.

 

[toadfoot]

I cant see how it helps the Carolina Panthers. I guess you could say it helps the Steelers..... but the Steelers will be playing without its top offensive player..... and on the road..... and against a fired up Patriot team. Unless the Steeler defense has improved dramatically since last season..... I expect NE to come out victorious... with or without Brady. Those are the only two teams I truly care for.

How the Patriots perform against their NFC opponents this year (NYG, Dallas, Philadelphia & Washington) absolutely has an influence on Carolina's playoff possibilities.

 

[Buzzyboy]

I don't think ET should have to get your anti south or Texas BS. They cheated- again! They have a long and reputable history of cheating and also of winning. Good for them. It's simple & obvious. You think the NFL wants to do a which hunt against one their most successful franchises in history? Lying and cheating are the same whether you are fron up north or the "Deep South" , Republican or Democrat!

Well, my having an anti Texas BS is pretty hilarious because my brother and a big number of my friends live there or have lived there. It's a fact that Texas has amongst the highest rates of executions in the country and whether you or I like or dislike it doesn't change that fact. The one thing is you'd like to be sure if the person you are applying that "lethal justice to" is actually unequivocally guilty and not just maybe or probably guilty and though the life of a human being is MUCH MORE important than the game of football, you have a guy here whose whole career can be tainted by this PROBABLY or POSSIBLY stuff and that's totally unacceptable. I appreciate your knowing me so well that you can easily point out all my character flaws and I'll concede that I have some but you surely aren't the appropriate person to diagnose me. I think the NFL is overreacting partially due to all the damage it's done by allowing violence to permeate the league both on and off the field and probably due to the owners having a deep seated resentment of the successes of the Patriots over the years. There is a need to make it sound like it was through abuse of the rules of fair play that the Patriots have had the successes they've had over the past decade. As has been mentioned multiple times, it didn't seem like the fully inflated balls that Brady used after the original game ball against the Colts was removed didn't seem to hamper his abilities in any way nor did it hamper his receivers from holding on to it. His effectiveness in the wake of this "scandal" seems to suggest that this supposed advantage in underinflated balls is just bullcrap to stigmatize a great quarterback and diminish the Patriots successes.

 

[NewCorn]

Brady was under pressure from the Players Union NOT to submit his text messages, as it would set a dangerous precedent. Do you think your employer should be able to force you to submit your emails and text messages?

Communications to fellow employees about our work procedures? of course. I would retain a right to refuse, but then my employer could fire me.

 

[CL82]

The NFL cannot force Brady to submit his texts and emails. But if my employer needed proof that I was not guilty of an act that put my employment in jeopardy I would gladly present my texts and emails to prove my innocence.

Probably not if you were represented by counsel or a union rep, unless the request was very narrow.

 

[CL82]

The problem with looking to law courts - civil or criminal - is that this investigation and subsequent finding of guilt is completely one-sided. The prosecutor gets to ask all the questions, choose all the witnesses, select all the evidence to be considered and present all the summing up, to the judge/jury who is/are anything but impartial. And the only 'expert' testimony is provided and paid for by the prosecution.

I believe you are describing a prosecutorial legal system. The French system, I believe, works that way. In our adversarial system, both sides present evidence.

 

[meyers7]

Well, meyers7, I knew I was speeding, so I paid the ticket without checking the calibration of the radar gun. I was wrong no matter the condition of the radar gun.

Well like I said.

 

[meyers7]

Do grown men whine as much as little boys?

Do you read the Boneyard?

 

[johnnyc]

I think the penalty was excessive for a 'probably'. Hope they make it to the Super Bowl but that's it if the NY Giants make it also.

 

[triaddukefan]

How the Patriots perform against their NFC opponents this year (NYG, Dallas, Philadelphia & Washington) absolutely has an influence on Carolina's playoff possibilities.

Well I wish the Pats the best of luck (without Brady) vs the Cowboys.......... though without Murray.... Im not sure if they will be as good as they were last season.

The nFL has absolutely no proof, they are simply appeasing the haters of the PATS. basically trial by public opinion.....mostly cuz that public's favorite NFL teams sucks so they need someone to hate when they lose in the playoffs

When the Patriots win 6 Super Bowls. or gets at least half of the number of Hall of Fame Players as the Steelers.... let me know

 

[toadfoot]

Well I wish the Pats the best of luck (without Brady) vs the Cowboys..... though without Murray.... Im not sure if they will be as good as they were last season.

Well, after spending far too much reading the Wells report and several other articles dissecting the report I'm confidant that Bardy's suspension will be overturned on appeal so I expect him to play against Dallas. The most he could be found culpable of is "not cooperating". There was a case several years ago involving Brett Favre that was nearly identical and he was fined $50k so I would expect him to be fined, but there's simply no justification for the suspension. Flaws in the Wells report, in particular the decision to ignore Anderson's contention that he used the logo gauge, which was critical to the conclusion that the balls deflated more than environmental factors would predict, raise serious questions that the Patriot's balls were deliberately deflated at all, let alone at Brady's direction or acquiescence.

 

[CL82]

I think the penalty was excessive for a 'probably'. Hope they make it to the Super Bowl but that's it if the NY Giants make it also.

Except it wasn't probably, it was "more likely than not" (so 50.0000000000000000001%) and that Brady was "generally aware." But agree with your point generally.

Your Giant quote made me smile. I have to say I don't particularly dislike the Giants despite those two season ending losses.

 

[UcMiami]

Communications to fellow employees about our work procedures? of course. I would retain a right to refuse, but then my employer could fire me.

And if you happened to be in a union, your union would get you reinstated immediately and get you any lost wages do to improper termination.

 

[UcMiami]

I believe you are describing a prosecutorial legal system. The French system, I believe, works that way. In our adversarial system, both sides present evidence.

Or the NFL system.

 

[toadfoot]

Except it wasn't probably, it was "more likely than not" (so 50.0000000000000000001%) and that Brady was "generally aware." But agree with your point generally.

Your Giant quote made me smile. I have to say I don't particularly dislike the Giants despite those two season ending losses.

The problem is that far too many fans stopped reading at "more probable than not", especially fans of other teams who want to believe the Patriots are cheaters. When you really start to dig into the report there are serious flaws with the report's conclusion.

1. The report clearly tries to tie the text messages between McNally & Jastremski to the AFC championship game, but they were in made in October after the Jets game in which the officials apparently drastically over-inflated at least 1 ball. The report asserts that the use of the word "deflator" somehow indicates a desire to deflate the balls to something under the legal limit, but any fair reading of those texts shows they were sarcastically referring to the fact that balls had been over-inflated.

2. The complete disregarding of Anderson's contention that he used the logo gauge to measure the balls before kickoff. The only way the report could conclude that the "Gas Law" could not account for the entire drop in pressure was to claim that Anderson was mistaken, but there was no basis to do so.

I thoroughly expect Brady's suspension to be overturned on appeal. I'm less informed about what Kraft's options are, but I've read that one possibility is to file a lawsuit against the NFL. If that's possible I hope the Patriots pursue that course.

That doesn't mean that the Patriots or Brady escape completely. There's league precedent involving Favre several years ago where he refused to turn over text messages and was fined $50k. That seems about right. McNally seems to have violated league rules regarding the handling of the footballs and the Patriots should probably be fined for that, but the suspension and loss of draft picks is WAY over the line given the lack of evidence.

 

[easttexastrash]

Well, my having an anti Texas BS is pretty hilarious because my brother and a big number of my friends live there or have lived there. It's a fact that Texas has amongst the highest rates of executions in the country and whether you or I like or dislike it doesn't change that fact. The one thing is you'd like to be sure if the person you are applying that "lethal justice to" is actually unequivocally guilty and not just maybe or probably guilty and though the life of a human being is MUCH MORE important than the game of football, you have a guy here whose whole career can be tainted by this PROBABLY or POSSIBLY stuff and that's totally unacceptable. I appreciate your knowing me so well that you can easily point out all my character flaws and I'll concede that I have some but you surely aren't the appropriate person to diagnose me. I think the NFL is overreacting partially due to all the damage it's done by allowing violence to permeate the league both on and off the field and probably due to the owners having a deep seated resentment of the successes of the Patriots over the years. There is a need to make it sound like it was through abuse of the rules of fair play that the Patriots have had the successes they've had over the past decade. As has been mentioned multiple times, it didn't seem like the fully inflated balls that Brady used after the original game ball against the Colts was removed didn't seem to hamper his abilities in any way nor did it hamper his receivers from holding on to it. His effectiveness in the wake of this "scandal" seems to suggest that this supposed advantage in underinflated balls is just bullcrap to stigmatize a great quarterback and diminish the Patriots successes.

I spent the past 20 years in Denver and only moved back to Dallas due to the passing of my father. I'm a 420 friendly, pro gay marriage, pro gun control, anti death penalty Democrat who will be voting for Hillary Clinton. I'm about as opposite of the typical Texan as you can be.

I agree that the Pats would have won just as much without deflating balls, which makes this situation even more senseless.

 

[toadfoot]

The problem with looking to law courts - civil or criminal - is that this investigation and subsequent finding of guilt is completely one-sided. The prosecutor gets to ask all the questions, choose all the witnesses, select all the evidence to be considered and present all the summing up, to the judge/jury who is/are anything but impartial. And the only 'expert' testimony is provided and paid for by the prosecution.

This entire process is more akin to a grand jury proceeding.

 

[huskiemaniac]

There is always cheating in sports. From stickum to pine tar to stealing signs. What's the big deal, suspend him if he's responsible and move on.

Do you feel the same about Arod and Papi?

 

[SWHuskyFan]

I think there is one thing this controversy has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Tom Brady should beef up his security. There are a lot of fairly creepy man crushes for mister Brady going on in Pats nation.

 

[easttexastrash]

Investigators of the Philly train derailment are asking to see the phone records of the traun's aviator to see if he was texting or on the phone right before the crash. Should he refuse?

 

[UcMiami]

Investigators of the Philly train derailment are asking to see the phone records of the traun's aviator to see if he was texting or on the phone right before the crash. Should he refuse?

Very different situation - he can certainly refuse but if he does it is just a stalling tactic as this will end up with a court order to turn it over, or for the phone company to release the information. Brady and a standard employee faced by a management fishing expedition were/are not in court, and did not/would not have any protections that being in court affords including the right to defend oneself and ask awkward questions of the other side - like who in the league office released damning and totally inaccurate PSI readings that said all the balls tested were 2 lbs. under inflated (which was the point at which this really took off as a 'scandal')

 

[UcMiami]

I just came across this little piece of information that was new to me: Exponent - the scientific research firm hired by Wells and the NFL has a history of being on the wrong side of scientific data and history:
Produced studies in defense of their clients that:
1. Second hand smoke does not cause cancer
2. Asbestos does not cause cancer
3. Chevron dumping of toxic chemicals in the rainforest was not responsible for a spike in cancer in the area (Chevron board member was largest stock holder in Exponent!)
Since the whole basis of the Wells conclusions is based on their research being unable to find atmospheric conditions to explain the different PSI readings, maybe Kraft should spend a little of his money on another 'expert' firm to prove that atmospheric conditions can explain all of the variations in PSI readings - or just pay Exponent more money than the NFL paid them to revisit the issue!!!

 

[toadfoot]

I think there is one thing this controversy has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Tom Brady should beef up his security. There are a lot of fairly creepy man crushes for mister Brady going on in Pats nation.

Wrong. What this controversy proves is that there are at least some people would prefer that allegations of wrong doing be decided by empirical facts not innuendo, speculation, envy and bias.

 

[toadfoot]

I just came across this little piece of information that was new to me: Exponent - the scientific research firm hired by Wells and the NFL has a history of being on the wrong side of scientific data and history:
Produced studies in defense of their clients that:
1. Second hand smoke does not cause cancer
2. Asbestos does not cause cancer
3. Chevron dumping of toxic chemicals in the rainforest was not responsible for a spike in cancer in the area (Chevron board member was largest stock holder in Exponent!)
Since the whole basis of the Wells conclusions is based on their research being unable to find atmospheric conditions to explain the different PSI readings, maybe Kraft should spend a little of his money on another 'expert' firm to prove that atmospheric conditions can explain all of the variations in PSI readings - or just pay Exponent more money than the NFL paid them to revisit the issue!!!

Just a minor correction. Exponent does concede that some of the measured difference in pressure that occurred from pre-kickoff to halftime is a direct result of the Ideal Gas Law, if the Wells theory that Anderson used the non-logo gauge to perform the pre-kickoff measurement. The problem with that is that Anderson claimed to use the logo gauge for that measurement and only upon continued questioning admitted the "possibility" that he had used the non-logo gauge. As has been pointed out in a couple of analyses that I've read, the average drop in pressure of all 12 Patriot's footballs was within the Gas Law predicted range if Anderson in fact was correct when he claimed to use the logo gauge.

That's one of the major issues I have with the investigation. Wells questioning was not that of an objective fact finder, but that of an adversarial questioner who was attempting to discredit Anderson's initial claim. And it's clear Wells NEEDED to discredit Anderson's claim or the entire hypotheses that someone deliberately removed air from the footballs crumbles.

 

[easttexastrash]

Very different situation - he can certainly refuse but if he does it is just a stalling tactic as this will end up with a court order to turn it over, or for the phone company to release the information. Brady and a standard employee faced by a management fishing expedition were/are not in court, and did not/would not have any protections that being in court affords including the right to defend oneself and ask awkward questions of the other side - like who in the league office released damning and totally inaccurate PSI readings that said all the balls tested were 2 lbs. under inflated (which was the point at which this really took off as a 'scandal')

But if he doesn't willingly turn over his phone does it imply that he has something to hide? That would be the public opinion if he doesn't cooperate fully.

 

[toadfoot]

But if he doesn't willingly turn over his phone does it imply that he has something to hide? That would be the public opinion if he doesn't cooperate fully.

Not at all. He could simply be trying to protect the privacy of others. And public opinion should play absolutely no part in this investigation.

There is NFL precedent for punishing a player for "not cooperating". Favre was fined $50K for not turning over text messages under league rules. I would have no problem with a similar punishment for Brady, but the suspension/fine and loss of draft picks is way beyond what was has proven even using the "preponderance of evidence" standard.

In fact, as I've pointed out in other posts, if Anderson in fact used the logo gauge, as he claimed, and which Wells discarded as incorrect with utterly no basis to do so, there's no evidence that the pressure loss was beyond what the Ideal Gas Law would predict. In other words, not only did Brady/McNally/Jastremski not orchestrate/participate in removing air, it never happened.

 

[Dynasty]

The Patriots have created a website rebutting the Wells Report.


http://wellsreportcontext.com/



Get your popcorn ready. We will be hearing about for awhile.

 

[Orangutan]

This bit about McNally being called "the deflator" because he was trying to lose weight -- good grief. I hope that lawyer didn't strain something clutching at straws.

At least both sides have hired quality bs artists.

 

[Paul1969]

But if he doesn't willingly turn over his phone does it imply that he has something to hide? That would be the public opinion if he doesn't cooperate fully.

Other sports experts on ESPN today said no major sports person would or should ever turn over their phone....to the NFL...we are talking about air in footballs here folks--get a grip!