NY Times article on CR effect on non-revenue sports

[btstimpy]

In one sense, you are actually understating the truth. The distribution of talent follows a lognormal distribution and in such a distribution, the difference between #1 and #4 is about the same as the difference between #50 and #200.

However ... Talent is not the same as achievement. I've taught at Berkeley and Harvard and studied at MIT. I worked with 7 Nobel laureates. There are a lot of worthless faculty at the #1, #2, #3 schools. All the faculty at top schools are very smart, but many are very smart about building successful careers, not doing science. You can find great people at mediocre universities, whose defect is that integrity and love of truth prevented them from the chicanery that can lead to rapid career success. Certain aspects of quality, notably the moral aspects, are in some respects easier to find in out of the way places than in elite institutions. My career has extended long enough to see a transition in many institutions from dominance by true scientists to a dominance by fake scientists who are good at gaming the system.

Any comparison of RPI and academic rankings is compromised by the ambiguous nature of academic merit. Sports are decided on the court and athletic rankings like the RPI are honest indicators of quality of play. Academic rankings are decided by self-interest and gamesmanship and bear no necessary relationship to scholarly quality. They measure how clever the faculty and institutions are, not how capable they are in a scholarly or research sense. Highly rated institutions have smarter students and smarter faculty, the ratings invariably are highly correlated with the average IQ of faculty and students. But smart people with the wrong incentives can actually go farther astray than less smart people. Smart people are very clever and can become very silly if that is what their careers demand.

All of this supports what you say, but there is one key fact which refutes your idea that there is equivalence between Louisville and schools like UConn. It's that UConn is trying and Louisville is not. To be honest, in my career I've never had of faculty from Louisville doing anything at all. I've heard of faculty from UConn, Virginia, Purdue, and most of the other schools we mention. I've never heard of anyone from Louisville doing anything. If a school is not even trying, why debate their quality?

I'm not disputing you. But I'm not seeing the Academic marvels of the Big Ten or the ACC trashing Louisville. I'm seeing schools not in the top 50 of the country and not in the top of either conference trashing Louisville. Ohio State is a top 60 school whose President trashed Louisville. I'm just not seeing top 30 or 10 schools trash Louisville. I just thought schools that are ranked 50-100 should have the fun of being trashed too from schools in the top 25. It might make them feel like they are taking part when they want to dish it out.

 

[auggie22]

If you want to make UVA a Charlottesville Commuter school, go ahead. We'll take on Maryland academically in any category you would like to discuss. Maryland has some schools like Pharmacy and perhape Vetinary that UVA doesn't, but head to head go for it.

BTW. I have been to New Haven looking for Yale. I had a business trip in Norwalk and drove over there to see Yale. Unfortunately it was at night. I saw the Yale University Hospital from the highway. I got off the highway to go to Yale, but I didn't feel comfortable with the neighborhoods I was driving through. I'd like to go back in the daytime. I'd also like to go to Storrs. I've seen the UConn football stadium in Hartford on the Pratt-Whitney property.

Lots of people poop on New Haven, including members of my own family. I think it is a very nice, very unique city...with a few bad elements ( that a good local economy could easily fix ). In fact if the state of Connecticut would get out of it's own way, I think the urban areas could easily be well regarded. Except Bridgeport of course.

I have been to several campuses that are considered among the nicer and more collegial (unc, Harvard, Michigan, northwestern) and in my opinion none of them approach Yale, when the trees are full.

 

[WestHartHusk]

I don't get the New Haven comments. It's a great city wih a lot to do. Bad neighborhoods? Sure, but also some great neighborhoods full of life - I think it is the 2nd best city in New England (could go to 4 based on ones feelin about Burlington and Providence).

 

[HuskyHawk]

I think UConn would be a great addition, and have tried to talk that up. I'm not interested in West Virginia. Academics are important to most in the league. It's emphasized in all the meetings, banquets, awards, etc. Louisville is going to have to work very hard to keep up. During this last selection as has been previously posted, there was a faction of the league more interested in an addition that helps compete with the SEC rather than the Big Ten. They wanted football over basketball, south over north. They see the Louisville -Kentucky rivalry as helpful. That was of greater interest than academics at that point in time to that faction. I think there will be an additional add or adds in the future. If UConn is interested at that point, I hope the ACC adds UConn. If the Big Ten calls on UConn before that, it's apparent that many here would like to go that route. Regardless UConn should be invited to a P5 conference.

By the way, that quote from another post shows as mine, but isn't. Agree with you, unlike some here, I'd be very happy if the ACC adds UConn.

 

[SouthronCross]

The PAC 12 and the Big 12 never claimed to be academically superior, but the ACC did state that academics made a difference during the BC/Miami addition. This is where this logic is faulty. No conference other than the B1G and the ACC claimed academic integrity. The B1G has kept it's word. The ACC has not.

Had the ACC added UConn and Louisville, rather than Pitt and Syracuse, would you feel the same way?

 

[SouthronCross]

Nebraska was an AAU school

The B1G also KNEW that Nebraska was going to LOSE their AAU status by the time that they joined the league. If memory serves, Michigan and Wisconsin, at the very least, were against them joining if that was the case. Because that was supposedly a requirement in order for a school to obtain B1G membership.

The B1G added them anyway.

So, to say that the ACC was the only league to sacrafice their academic standards to add new members is not true.

 

[SouthronCross]

If you use #50 as your "good or bad" standard, I am setting #160 as the "so God awful it damages the academic reputation of an entire conference" standard.

Comments like this one make me laugh.

 

[btstimpy]

Lots of people poop on New Haven, including members of my own family. I think it is a very nice, very unique city...with a few bad elements ( that a good local economy could easily fix ). In fact if the state of Connecticut would get out of it's own way, I think the urban areas could easily be well regarded. Except Bridgeport of course.

I have been to several campuses that are considered among the nicer and more collegial (unc, Harvard, Michigan, northwestern) and in my opinion none of them approach Yale, when the trees are full.

I would like to go back in the daytime to see the campus at Yale. I couldn't really see much at night, and got sidetracked in a neighborhood that didn't look so good. So I aborted. I'll get back there at some point. I've been to Bridgeport too for work. It just seemed like a very industrial area.

 

[uconnell]

Had the ACC added UConn and Louisville, rather than Pitt and Syracuse, would you feel the same way?

Yes, no matter who they were added with.

 

[SouthronCross]

To our friends from UNC and UVA - there no making an academic "silk purse" out of the "sow's ear" that is Louisville - period - end of story.

Your top academic institutions are some of the best in the country, but adding Louisville simply diminishes your shine. UNC and UVA are clearly "public ivies" and have been for some time. That what UConn strives to be and is getting there fast. (BTW, UConn has now surpassed your other recent add-ons of Pitt and egregiously over-priced Syracuse in this regard.) You can compare the ACC top to bottom with the B1G all you want, but the fact is that the B1G still has the AAU requirement and the ACC has shown it has zero academic requirements for membership. While not there (AAU) yet, UConn is getting there. Further on many metrics it well ahead of existing members. The ACC, of course, isn't burdened with such considerations, so it could take a school like Louisville. That is why my fervent hope is that UConn gets AAU status and nod from the B1G.

The B1G sacraficed its AAU requirement to add Nebraska. Nobody can spin that away.

And, Louisville being in the ACC does NOTHING to diminish UNC, UVA, Wake, Duke, BC, etc. That is silly.

You are right. The ACC cannot spin the UL addition as anything but an athletic add only. There are those of us who were, and still are, big proponents of UConn joining the ACC. I know that is of little relief to you guys, but...and, its JMHO...but, I believe Swofford is still working to bring you onboard. He knows the value you bring, and, not just athletically.

 

[buddy]

Had the ACC added UConn and Louisville, rather than Pitt and Syracuse, would you feel the same way?

Of course not. But one of the points made by the ACC during the first raid on the BE was to take academically superior schools, such as BC/Miami. They wanted Cuse at that time as well. Certainly the argument for academic superior schools only no longer holds water. That's all I'm saying.

 

[SouthronCross]

Yes, no matter who they were added with.

Fair enough. Appreciate the reply.

 

[btstimpy]

I don't get the New Haven comments. It's a great city wih a lot to do. Bad neighborhoods? Sure, but also some great neighborhoods full of life - I think it is the 2nd best city in New England (could go to 4 based on ones feelin about Burlington and Providence).

I wasn't intending to say New Haven was bad. I was just trying to get to Yale. One of the bad neighborshoods might have been near Yale at the time. It's been about 15 years ago. That area may have been renovated by now.

 

[SouthronCross]

Of course not. But one of the points made by the ACC during the first raid on the BE was to take academically superior schools, such as BC/Miami. They wanted Cuse at that time as well. Certainly the argument for academic superior schools only no longer holds water. That's all I'm saying.

Thats also fair enough.

uconnell says he would still feel the same way about UL. You wouldn't. I thought the POVs would differ by poster, and, that holds true for this.

 

[btstimpy]

In one sense, you are actually understating the truth. The distribution of talent follows a lognormal distribution and in such a distribution, the difference between #1 and #4 is about the same as the difference between #50 and #200.

However ... Talent is not the same as achievement. I've taught at Berkeley and Harvard and studied at MIT. I worked with 7 Nobel laureates. There are a lot of worthless faculty at the #1, #2, #3 schools. All the faculty at top schools are very smart, but many are very smart about building successful careers, not doing science. You can find great people at mediocre universities, whose defect is that integrity and love of truth prevented them from the chicanery that can lead to rapid career success. Certain aspects of quality, notably the moral aspects, are in some respects easier to find in out of the way places than in elite institutions. My career has extended long enough to see a transition in many institutions from dominance by true scientists to a dominance by fake scientists who are good at gaming the system.

Any comparison of RPI and academic rankings is compromised by the ambiguous nature of academic merit. Sports are decided on the court and athletic rankings like the RPI are honest indicators of quality of play. Academic rankings are decided by self-interest and gamesmanship and bear no necessary relationship to scholarly quality. They measure how clever the faculty and institutions are, not how capable they are in a scholarly or research sense. Highly rated institutions have smarter students and smarter faculty, the ratings invariably are highly correlated with the average IQ of faculty and students. But smart people with the wrong incentives can actually go farther astray than less smart people. Smart people are very clever and can become very silly if that is what their careers demand.

All of this supports what you say, but there is one key fact which refutes your idea that there is equivalence between Louisville and schools like UConn. It's that UConn is trying and Louisville is not. To be honest, in my career I've never had of faculty from Louisville doing anything at all. I've heard of faculty from UConn, Virginia, Purdue, and most of the other schools we mention. I've never heard of anyone from Louisville doing anything. If a school is not even trying, why debate their quality?

I agree with most of this. I wasn't trying to imply that Louisville was an academic power. They are going to be the lowest rated in the ACC. But as I showed in another post, they are 1 out of 15. And averaged with the rest of the ACC, the ACC remains with the highest academic average by averaging the USN&WR rankings. Had we added Rice University instead, the gap between the ACC and everyone else would have increased. We didn't. We added Louisville for their athletics, and there was a voting block in the ACC that wanted that. I personally wanted UConn and still do.

As for anyone from the University of Louisville doing anything, the one that comes to mind is Sen. Mitch McConnell (Senate Minority Leader). As for faculty, I have no idea. Someone from Louisville would have to debate that. I'm surprised no Louisville fans are on this board to defend Louisville. I've seen everyone else from Ohio State, Rutgers, Illinois, Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College, FSU, UNC. Where's Louisville? Maybe they haven't found the UConn realignment board.

 

[Sea Goat]

The B1G sacraficed its AAU requirement to add Nebraska. Nobody can spin that away.

And, Louisville being in the ACC does NOTHING to diminish UNC, UVA, Wake, Duke, BC, etc. That is silly.

You are right. The ACC cannot spin the UL addition as anything but an athletic add only. There are those of us who were, and still are, big proponents of UConn joining the ACC. I know that is of little relief to you guys, but...and, its JMHO...but, I believe Swofford is still working to bring you onboard. He knows the value you bring, and, not just athletically.

Thanks for your comments - I suppose the only conference that CR won't touch is the Ivy League. For the rest, while football is king, there will be "adds" that normally wouldn't be made.
My feelings about the old ACC were very positive. Specifically, with UVA and UNC you have 2 of the best public institutions period. I remember kids from my class that striving for a Morehead scholarship to UNC. It was considered a real feather in your cap if you qualified.

It is a shame that the powers that be in the ACC felt the pressure to sell a little bit of their souls and take Louisville. In the long run, UConn would have been a much better pick period and I don't see it happening ever now.

 

[hthusky74]

I wasn't intending to say New Haven was bad. I was just trying to get to Yale. One of the bad neighborshoods might have been near Yale at the time. It's been about 15 years ago. That area may have been renovated by now.

btstimpy I was born and raised in New Haven. The Yale campus is absolutely beautiful. The architecture, both the old and the new, is sometimes breathtaking. That said, some of the neighborhoods surrounding Yale can also be breathtaking, but in a literal physical way. On one side is The Hill and on some others the Whalley and Dixwell corridors. Not great places to be roaming around in especially at night.

 

[B1GALUM]

The B1G also KNEW that Nebraska was going to LOSE their AAU status by the time that they joined the league. If memory serves, Michigan and Wisconsin, at the very least, were against them joining if that was the case. Because that was supposedly a requirement in order for a school to obtain B1G membership.

The B1G added them anyway.

So, to say that the ACC was the only league to sacrafice their academic standards to add new members is not true.

Actually Michigan and Wisconsin did support the entrance of Nebraska into the B1G but opposed continuation of their AAU membership.

"After endorsing the University of Nebraska-Lincoln's entrance into the Big Ten Conference -- in part because of its academic strength -- leaders at the universities of Wisconsin and Michigan apparently helped oust UNL from an elite academic group, according to documents reviewed by the Journal Star...."
http://journalstar.com/news/local/e...cle_19188dda-afe7-57c8-aa2c-c1939ec5acb4.html

Yes. AAU membership is desired by the B1G but is not an actual requirement. I believe I have posted this statement on a few occasions.

"There are no restrictions regarding expansion - potential additions are not required to be in the AAU, and they do not have to be in (or adjacent to) the eight Big Ten states," league spokesman Scott Chipman wrote in an e-mail. Removing the AAU and geographic limitations means the Big Ten can add any school from anywhere in the country."
http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/content.detail/id/525178.html?nav=742

 

[The Viking]

I'm surprised no Louisville fans are on this board to defend Louisville. I've seen everyone else from Ohio State, Rutgers, Illinois, Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College, FSU, UNC. Where's Louisville? Maybe they haven't found the UConn realignment board.

They aren't here because even they can't defend how bad they are from an academic standpoint. And they likely can't read or write.

And Nebraska is not as bad as Louisville is academically. Did the B1G suck it up a little to take them because of their football, yes. But the ACC did more holding their nose than the B1G did when they took Louisville. For a conference that pimps out the USN&WR as much as the ACC does, their addition was laughable from an academic standpoint.

Let's put it this way.
If UConn got the invite ahead of Louisville, where do you think both schools athletic programs would be five years from now? With Louisville in the AAC and UConn in the ACC? And with Strong and Bridgewater and Pitino possibly all gone from the program with no TV money coming....and compared to UConn with Diaco (or Narduzzi if he was afraid of conference realigment), and with Ollie and Geno and the other olympic sports UConn paticipates in and with more TV money than UConn has ever had before?

It was a stupid short term decision by the ACC and there's no one who can really debate that. Here's hoping that someday we get an invite to the B1G. duck* the ACC, duck* the NE schools BC and Cuse who are afraid of us and duck* the Duck Dynasty football schools in the SE..

 

[SouthronCross]

Actually Michigan and Wisconsin did support the entrance of Nebraska into the B1G but opposed continuation of their AAU membership.

"After endorsing the University of Nebraska-Lincoln's entrance into the Big Ten Conference -- in part because of its academic strength -- leaders at the universities of Wisconsin and Michigan apparently helped oust UNL from an elite academic group, according to documents reviewed by the Journal Star...."
http://journalstar.com/news/local/e...cle_19188dda-afe7-57c8-aa2c-c1939ec5acb4.html

Yes. AAU membership is desired by the B1G but is not an actual requirement. I believe I have posted this statement on a few occasions.
"There are no restrictions regarding expansion - potential additions are not required to be in the AAU, and they do not have to be in (or adjacent to) the eight Big Ten states," league spokesman Scott Chipman wrote in an e-mail. Removing the AAU and geographic limitations means the Big Ten can add any school from anywhere in the country."
http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/content.detail/id/525178.html?nav=742

It may not be a requirement, as you say, but, what they put out to the media says otherwise. They make it sound like it is.

 

[SouthronCross]

They aren't here because even they can't defend how bad they are from an academic standpoint. And they likely can't read or write.

And Nebraska is not as bad as Louisville is academically. Did the B1G suck it up a little to take them because of their football, yes. But the ACC did more holding their nose than the B1G did when they took Louisville. For a conference that pimps out the USN&WR as much as the ACC does, their addition was laughable from an academic standpoint.

Let's put it this way.
If UConn got the invite ahead of Louisville, where do you think both schools athletic programs would be five years from now? With Louisville in the AAC and UConn in the ACC? And with Strong and Bridgewater and Pitino possibly all gone from the program with no TV money coming....and compared to UConn with Diaco (or Narduzzi if he was afraid of conference realigment), and with Ollie and Geno and the other olympic sports UConn paticipates in and with more TV money than UConn has ever had before?

It was a stupid short term decision by the ACC and there's no one who can really debate that. Here's hoping that someday we get an invite to the B1G. F* the ACC, F* the NE schools BC and Cuse who are afraid of us and F* the Duck Dynasty football schools in the SE..

Never said Nebraska was as bad as Louisville, academically speaking, but, to say that the B1G did not alter the standards that they put out in order to accept them is not the least bit true.

 

[B1GALUM]

It may not be a requirement, as you say, but, what they put out to the media says otherwise. They make it sound like it is.

Yes. You and I are in agreement on that point. Delany et. al. have certainly spoken about the importance of AAU membership on numerous occasions. However, I think it is worth noting, when it comes to conference realignment, that it is not an official requirement. Delany would have welcomed Notre Dame and its lack of AAU membership with open arms had Notre Dame desired to join the B1G as full members. I think Oklahoma, and for the sake of this discussion disregard the Big 12 GOR, is another university that the B1G would consider despite lack of AAU membership. I am pleased with the move to east and west football divisions in the B1G but there is concern about the divisions being unbalanced. The acceptance and then placement of Oklahoma into the west division of the B1G would alleviate some of that concern and provide the B1G with another football "brand" as well as rekindle the historic Nebraska-Oklahoma rivalry. For these reasons, I think the B1G wound consider non AAU member Oklahoma if the Big 12 GOR were not in place and Oklahoma had interest in the B1G.

 

[CAHUSKY]

It may not be a requirement, as you say, but, what they put out to the media says otherwise. They make it sound like it is.

Well, except for the press release saying it wasn't.

 

[SouthronCross]

Well, except for the press release saying it wasn't.

Yeah, no national organisation has ever put out a press release saying one thing, while that same organisation is doing something else out in the field.

Right?

 

[SouthronCross]

Yes. You and I are in agreement on that point. Delany et. al. have certainly spoken about the importance of AAU membership on numerous occasions. However, I think it is worth noting, when it comes to conference realignment, that it is not an official requirement. Delany would have welcomed Notre Dame and its lack of AAU membership with open arms had Notre Dame desired to join the B1G as full members. I think Oklahoma, and for the sake of this discussion disregard the Big 12 GOR, is another university that the B1G would consider despite lack of AAU membership. I am pleased with the move to east and west football divisions in the B1G but there is concern about the divisions being unbalanced. The acceptance and then placement of Oklahoma into the west division of the B1G would alleviate some of that concern and provide the B1G with another football "brand" as well as rekindle the historic Nebraska-Oklahoma rivalry. For these reasons, I think the B1G wound consider non AAU member Oklahoma if the Big 12 GOR were not in place and Oklahoma had interest in the B1G.

Agree. The B1G would for sure make an exception for Notre Dame, and, that'd be a very smart move.

I have not followed CR where Oklahoma is concerned, but, they'd be a HUGE get for the B1G, too. Absolute dynasty on the football field, solid baseball and basketball, and, a large and loyal traveling fanbase. They'd strenghten the B1G West Division immediately. It'd certainly leave Texas in an odd position if they were chosen. What I am not so sure about is whether or not they could be separated from fellow state institution Oklahoma State.