NY Times article on CR effect on non-revenue sports

[btstimpy]

Isn't USN&WR the one you submit your own answers for their questionnaire? No bogus info there...

They all do in some form. Schools keep their own statistics. Who else is going to keep them?

 

[UPitt]

It sounds like you want to put the line at 100. If you do that, then you include just about everyone in the ACC and everyone in the Big Ten other than a couple of outliers (Nebraska, NC State, and Louisville). Yes Louisville is a significant outlier then. But the academic elite in this country is the Ivy League and near Ivy League as you say. That crowd is does not look at schools past 50 as academic marvels. They just don't. The ACC is fortunate to have 2 in that top 20 group and 3 more just outside in the 20s. I go up to 50 to be generous.

Outside of that range harping on academics is pointless. It is an athletic conference. The ACC brought Louisville in to play football, basketball, and the rest of the sports that the ACC sponsors. And yes you can break this academic ranking stuff down to the individual school level and the individual major level within a University if you like. I'm sure Lousville can find some major that they are top 10 in. VCU here is Richmond boasts a top 10 music department. Pitt has a fine medical school. And I haven't seen Pitt fans throwing stones at Louisville either.

When you get into individual majors you're going to find something that every school ranked in the top 200 is good at including Louisville.

I'm not saying to put the line at 100 as opposed to 50. I am saying that no line should exist at all. You say that the academic elite in this country do not look at schools outside of the top 50 for USNews rankings as academic marvels. Only speaking for Pitt and Purdue (as I considered Purdue for undergraduate and I'm sure others could say similar), I find it very insulting that you would make this statement. Pitt and Purdue STEM schools are not little niche majors that get overlooked. Purdue Engineering is widely considered to be compared with the best of the best, especially at the graduate level. Pitt Medical school and some departments of the engineering school are considered to be equals with most ivy type schools. I am not saying that Pitt or Purdue should be considered with the ivies that excel in all departments, but Pitt and Purdue STEM schools overlooked by the academic elite as you stated above. We may have to agree to disagree, because I will not consider a degree from a STEM field from either Pitt or Purdue to be inferior to a degree from UVA, sorry.

 

[btstimpy]

I'm not saying to put the line at 100 as opposed to 50. I am saying that no line should exist at all. You say that the academic elite in this country do not look at schools outside of the top 50 for USNews rankings as academic marvels. Only speaking for Pitt and Purdue (as I considered Purdue for undergraduate and I'm sure others could say similar), I find it very insulting that you would make this statement. Pitt and Purdue STEM schools are not little niche majors that get overlooked. Purdue Engineering is widely considered to be compared with the best of the best, especially at the graduate level. Pitt Medical school and some departments of the engineering school are considered to be equals with most ivy type schools. I am not saying that Pitt or Purdue should be considered with the ivies that excel in all departments, but Pitt and Purdue STEM schools overlooked by the academic elite as you stated above. We may have to agree to disagree, because I will consider a degree from a STEM field from either Pitt or Purdue to be inferior to a degree from UVA, sorry.

UVA is not known as an engineering school. But UVA has a small engineering school that is very good. It's usually top 25. In the Commonwealth of Virginia, Virginia Tech is the state's engineering school. At UVA the Law School, the Business School, and the Medical School are the premier professional schools. I'm sure you can find certain majors at Purdue that rank at the top of the heap in their specialty. I'm not debating that. When I got my MS in Industrial Engineering from Georgia Tech, GT was ranked #1 in the United States in IE. Purdue was in the top 5.

My point is that I can probably find something that Louisville does that they are ranked highly in. I haven't looked, but I'm assuming I can. The ACC added them for Men's football and basketball. Not STEM research. Georgia Tech, NC State, and Virginia Tech do all of that you want.

 

[UPitt]

I have my undergraduate engineering degree from UVA and my graduate engineering degree from Georgia Tech, whose ranking trumped Purdue at the time as well as UVA. I found UVA much harder to get through than Georgia Tech. It's relative. Georgia Tech is the more prestigious engineering school. UVA is the more prestigious university, but engineering at UVA is hard. The classes are smaller. Everyone in them is a genious certainly smarter than me. And the grading is on a curve.

If you want to get into that debate about Ivy League level engineering schools, you need to bring MIT into the picture.

Then include CMU as well. I considered CMU for undergraduate. CMU was much higher ranked as a university, but I chose Pitt because it had a stronger background in Nuclear Engineering and I will never second guess that decision. I have taken a few classes at CMU due to the partnership that the two Universities have. Yes, the students at CMU are more intelligent, but I would not say the classes were any more difficult than Pitt. If anything, CMU classes are designed for everyone to pass. The better students at CMU put more effort into the studying on there own and the classes are just adademic. It's a similar comparison to what you made of GT vs UVA. The difficulty of the classes doesn't equate to rankings.

I am not trying to fight over which engineering and medical school is best (becuase it really depends on departments and other things), but I think it is unfair that you make a blanket statement that Universities such as Pitt and Purdue are worthless becuase they are ranked outside of the top 50 by one rankings group. I think you will find that these schools are much more highly touted in the STEM fields than you are giving them credit for. Again, I am not saying that UVA is not a good school. UVA may have a better engineering department than Pitt, but I do not think you can make the argument that UVA STEM schools are on par with Ivy schools while Pitt and Purdue are considered irrelevant.

 

[HawkHusky]

How did the UCONN board become a Purdue/Pitt/Virginia/Georgia Tech d!k measuring contest?

 

[btstimpy]

Then include CMU as well. I considered CMU for undergraduate. CMU was much higher ranked as a university, but I chose Pitt because it had a stronger background in Nuclear Engineering and I will never second guess that decision. I have taken a few classes at CMU due to the partnership that the two Universities have. Yes, the students at CMU are more intelligent, but I would not say the classes were any more difficult than Pitt. If anything, CMU classes are designed for everyone to pass. The better students at CMU put more effort into the studying on there own and the classes are just adademic. It's a similar comparison to what you made of GT vs UVA. The difficulty of the classes doesn't equate to rankings.

I am not trying to fight over which engineering and medical school is best (becuase it really depends on departments and other things), but I think it is unfair that you make a blanket statement that Universities such as Pitt and Purdue are worthless becuase they are ranked outside of the top 50 by one rankings group. I think you will find that these schools are much more highly touted in the STEM fields than you are giving them credit for. Again, I am not saying that UVA is not a good school. UVA may have a better engineering department than Pitt, but I do not think you can make the argument that UVA STEM schools are on par with Ivy schools while Pitt and Purdue are considered irrelevant.

With CMU I assume you are referring to Carnegie Mellon? That's a top 25 school. It passes my top 50 test. I know you don't want a line drawn, artificial or otherwise. And yes various schools have specialties. No question. The University of Miami Business School is much better at Latin American business than UVA's business school. That's why the ACC has the ACCIAC for Cross University degree credits. As for STEM, I don't like that acronym. I think of stem cell research when I see it. I have to do a double take. I liked the old days when we called it math and science and engineering.

 

[btstimpy]

How did the UCONN board become a Purdue/Pitt/Virginia/Georgia Tech d!k measuring contest?

We got off on a tangent and a little carried away. We'll stop. I was debating UConn fans earlier about Louisville. I'm not sure when the other schools jumped in. Somehow we got off on a STEM tangent.

 

[WestHartHusk]

UVA is not known as an engineering school. But UVA has a small engineering school that is very good. It's usually top 25. In the Commonwealth of Virginia, Virginia Tech is the state's engineering school. At UVA the Law School, the Business School, and the Medical School are the premier professional schools. I'm sure you can find certain majors at Purdue that rank at the top of the heap in their specialty. I'm not debating that. When I got my MS in Industrial Engineering from Georgia Tech, GT was ranked #1 in the United States in IE. Purdue was in the top 5.

My point is that I can probably find something that Louisville does that they are ranked highly in. I haven't looked, but I'm assuming I can. The ACC added them for Men's football and basketball. Not STEM research. Georgia Tech, NC State, and Virginia Tech do all of that you want.

Can you? Here is an article from Forbes on Lousville that has them ranked #445 overall, ranked #103 - IN THE SOUTH ALONE. Just as a point of reference: UVA #29, Purdue #106 Cuse #123, UConn #140, Pitt #193.

It seems Like L'Ville is a rather large outlier that Stimpy is trying to ignore... Here is a sample of schools that the ACC could have taken that are more academically regarded than Ville: University of Alabama - Birmingham; North Dakota State, Georgia State; Christopher Newport; a whole host of second rung UC's; University of Hawaii - Manoa; Kansas State; Montana Technical; Azusa Pacific; Oauchata Baptist; Oklahoma Baptist; Florida Tech; University of Idaho; Western Washington; Queens College, University of South Dakota; University of New England; College of Idaho; University of Maryland - Baltimore County; College of St. Benedict, etc, etc.
;

 

[B1GALUM]

We got off on a tangent and a little carried away. We'll stop. I was debating UConn fans earlier about Louisville. I'm not sure when the other schools jumped in. Somehow we got off on a STEM tangent.

Those of us from other schools, although here to talk realignment in general and UConn as part of this subject in particular, jumped in when you made statements about our universities with which we disagreed. We are all passionate about our respective universities. It is my impression that you are passionate about the ACC as a conference and hold it in high regard. This leads me to a question ... Would you be defending Louisville and denigrating other universities in the process as part of your defense if Louisville were not joining the ACC?

 

[upstater]

It's probably the first index any University uses on a website to promote their academic standing. I didn't create the index. If you don't like it, you can take it up with USN&WR. Others like the Wall Street Journal, Princeton, Forbes, etc. have tried to create other indexes. Everyone still goes back to the USN&WR one.

This is wrong. There are many better indexes, like NRC and even Gourman, but the best is Carnegie. The problem is they don't do it every year. Why? It's cost intensive. They put tens of millions behind it. Most of the UNSWR is reputation as scribbled on a sheet of paper by university presidents who try to make themselves look good at the expense of others.

 

[upstater]

They all do in some form. Schools keep their own statistics. Who else is going to keep them?

This is wrong. Carnegie and NRC send teams to every campus. Their research and investigations are intensive and take on so much qualitative data that it would make your eyes spin.

Gourman tries to rearrange it in rankings, but I find them flawed. Still, he's better than USNews which makes absolutely no attempt to do anything but tally up a questionnaire.

A few years ago, the NRC had to write to USNWR to tell them they totally misinterpreted the NRC rankings for claissification. Because of this, USNews had to go back to the drawing board and with much embarrassment get rid of their tiered system. They were trying to copy it to add prestige but without understanding it.

 

[HuskyHawk]

No argument. Ohio State is a crapyy commuter school in Columbus, Ohio, and Maryland is a crappy commuter school in DC. Let's set the base.

This is idiotic. If you can't see that Louisville is in a different academic universe than those schools, there is no help for you. Your top 50 is self serving. The reality is closer to a top 5-7, second 15-20 or so after that, then about 50 that lump together, then another 40-50 that are ok. Louisvville is on the other side of the last 40-50.

Think about crossover student body. A good chunk of the freshmen in the ACC or B1G could have gone or would have comparable metrics to those at the other schools in the conference, with one exception. Louisville. Northwestern probably has the least commonality in the B1G. In the ACC the school least like the others isnt the best, it's the worst.

Don't kid youself that somehow Louisville is a nice 2 year old Camry parked in the country club parking lot. NC State and FSU are Camrys. Louisville is a rusted, 33 year old Chevette, belching smoke through the holes in its muffler, with one mirror hanging down, no hupcaps and old stained sheets covering the seats. The cassette player is broken.

I'm not saying UConn is in better shape in the American...we've got Memphis, which is worse still. But don't lie to yourself, it was an epic cave on academic standards.

 

[btstimpy]

Those of us from other schools, although here to talk realignment in general and UConn as part of this subject in particular, jumped in when you made statements about our universities with which we disagreed. We are all passionate about our respective universities. It is my impression that you are passionate about the ACC as a conference and hold it in high regard. This leads me to a question ... Would you be defending Louisville and denigrating other universities in the process as part of your defense if Louisville were not joining the ACC?

I'm not defending Louisville's academic ranking. They are the worst in the ACC or will be. But academic standing is relative. I'm not seeing the academic elite doing the bashing of Louisville's academic ranking or the ACC for accepting Louisville. I think the gap between academic rankings 51 and 200 is a lot smaller than the gap between 1 and 50. That was my point. Then we got off on STEM majors, medical schools, and other tangents losing the original point. I wouldn't even be talking about Louisville if they weren't going to the ACC. The whole discussion was based on criticism of the ACC for adding Louisville. I think they will be a good add from an athletics standpoint. ESPN thinks they will be a good add from a television revenue standpoint.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

As an alum and faculty member, I take issue with your view of Ohio State as a crappy commuter school. You need to spend more time researching universities before you make such pronouncements.
Here is a place to start:
http://www.osu.edu/highpoints/
http://www.osu.edu/visitors/aboutohiostate.php

I agree that Ohio State is academically a well-regarded school, outside of the perception of academics that the football team has. Of course, a ‘crappy commuter school’ is a tame comment compared to what the folks in Ann Arbor say about Ohio St.

 

[btstimpy]

Can you? Here is an article from Forbes on Lousville that has them ranked #445 overall, ranked #103 - IN THE SOUTH ALONE. Just as a point of reference: UVA #29, Purdue #106 Cuse #123, UConn #140, Pitt #193.

It seems Like L'Ville is a rather large outlier that Stimpy is trying to ignore... Here is a sample of schools that the ACC could have taken that are more academically regarded than Ville: University of Alabama - Birmingham; North Dakota State, Georgia State; Christopher Newport; a whole host of second rung UC's; University of Hawaii - Manoa; Kansas State; Montana Technical; Azusa Pacific; Oauchata Baptist; Oklahoma Baptist; Florida Tech; University of Idaho; Western Washington; Queens College, University of South Dakota; University of New England; College of Idaho; University of Maryland - Baltimore County; College of St. Benedict, etc, etc.
;

I have to stick with the way USN&WR separates the National Universities out from the small regional schools that don't have Doctoral Majors. There is an athletics component here too. Forbes includes every little liberal arts college from everywhere in their comparisons. Most of them I've never heard of. That's no help.

 

[B1GALUM]

I agree that Ohio State is academically a well-regarded school, outside of the perception of academics that the football team has. Of course, a ‘crappy commuter school’ is a tame comment compared to what the folks in Ann Arbor say about Ohio St.

Of course. I believe you mentioned before living in Ann Arbor? Regardless, you are absolutely correct. The vitriol out of Ann Arbor toward Ohio State is only matched by the vitriol out of Columbus toward Michigan. This is to be expected given the history of this rivalry.

 

[pj]

Apples to oranges..but I'll bite.

Since you chose the basketball analogy: If one team has an RPI or SOS of 62 then they will be much more likely to make the NCAA tournament than a team with an RPI or SOS of 161.

So yes I find an at-large tournament bid impressive.

Playing teams with an RPI of 62 increases your RPI. Playing teams with an RPI of 161 decreases your RPI. That's why schools try to schedule top 100 opponents. SOS is important.

Similarly, associating with schools ranked #62 improves your academic standing. Associating with schools ranked #161 damages your academic standing.

 

[btstimpy]

This is idiotic. If you can't see that Louisville is in a different academic universe than those schools, there is no help for you. Your top 50 is self serving. The reality is closer to a top 5-7, second 15-20 or so after that, then about 50 that lump together, then another 40-50 that are ok. Louisvville is on the other side of the last 40-50.

Think about crossover student body. A good chunk of the freshmen in the ACC or B1G could have gone or would have comparable metrics to those at the other schools in the conference, with one exception. Louisville. Northwestern probably has the least commonality in the B1G. In the ACC the school least like the others isnt the best, it's the worst.

Don't kid youself that somehow Louisville is a nice 2 year old Camry parked in the country club parking lot. NC State and FSU are Camrys. Louisville is a rusted, 33 year old Chevette, belching smoke through the holes in its muffler, with one mirror hanging down, no hupcaps and old stained sheets covering the seats. The cassette player is broken.

I'm not saying UConn is in better shape in the American...we've got Memphis, which is worse still. But don't lie to yourself, it was an epic cave on academic standards.

I have to say I'm amazed at the denigration that goes on regarding Louisville around here. I thought they were a good member in good standing with the Big East and AAC. If the ACC had invited West Virginia University, would they have gotten the same denigration? State Flagship that everyone wants to emphasize and all? I'm not sure I could handle that one myself though. Whew! The WVU alumni aren't so bad. It's all the fans they have that didn't go to the school that have behavioral issues. Now that the Big XII have all shuffled through there, it would be interesting to capture their thoughts.

A rusted 33 year old Chevette, belching smoke through the muffler holes, with one mirror hanging down, no hubcaps, and an old stained sheet covering the seats. Is the floor board rusted through too? My oh my.

 

[HawkHusky]

I have to say I'm amazed at the denigration that goes on regarding Louisville around here. I thought they were a good member in good standing with the Big East and AAC. If the ACC had invited West Virginia University, would they have gotten the same denigration? State Flagship that every wants to emphasize and all? I'm not sure I could handle that one myself though. Whew! The WVU alumni aren't so bad. It's all the fans they have that didn't go to the school that have behavioral issues. Now that the Big XII have all shuffled through there, it would be interesting to capture their thoughts.

A rusted 33 year old Chevette, belching smoke through the muffler holes, with on mirror hanging down, no hubcaps, and an old stained sheet covering the seats. Is the floor board rusted through too? My oh my.

The problem people are having is the ACC and its fans such as yourself talking up how great an addition Louisville is. This is after years and years of the ACC promoting and talking about how important academics were to the conference. I'd be just as annoyed with West Virginia going to the ACC because of this same thing. I'm not pissed at Louisville..I'm annoyed at the hypocrisy of the ACC and its fans.

 

[btstimpy]

The problem people are having is the ACC and its fans such as yourself talking up how great an addition Louisville is. This is after years and years of the ACC promoting and talking about how important academics were to the conference. I'd be just as annoyed with West Virginia going to the ACC because of this same thing. I'm not pissed at Louisville..I'm annoyed at the hypocrisy of the ACC and its fans.

I think UConn would be a great addition, and have tried to talk that up. I'm not interested in West Virginia. Academics are important to most in the league. It's emphasized in all the meetings, banquets, awards, etc. Louisville is going to have to work very hard to keep up. During this last selection as has been previously posted, there was a faction of the league more interested in an addition that helps compete with the SEC rather than the Big Ten. They wanted football over basketball, south over north. They see the Louisville -Kentucky rivalry as helpful. That was of greater interest than academics at that point in time to that faction. I think there will be an additional add or adds in the future. If UConn is interested at that point, I hope the ACC adds UConn. If the Big Ten calls on UConn before that, it's apparent that many here would like to go that route. Regardless UConn should be invited to a P5 conference.

 

[buggsy]

The Big Ten has at least 9 academically inferior schools. When Ohio State President E. Gordon Gee went on his rant about Catholics and Louisville's academic inferiority, it was a complete JOKE. His school at the time, Ohio State, has more gut courses and majors than any other school in the NCAA to shuffle athletes through or at least as many. They aren't even in the top 50 academically, a complete JOKE. Having Gordon Gee as some kind of mouthpiece for academics isn't very smart. He's now at West Virginia. Maybe now he'll laugh at Marshall.

Picking on Louisville's academics seems in vogue. But people representing schools not even in the Top 50 picking on Louisville is a JOKE. He should let Michigan do it. But they probably have more class.

What is the real joke is you thinking that USNWR is the only authority on where a school ranks academically, then randomly choosing the number 50 as the cutoff of what makes a school elite....and what makes a school inferior. If you think schools that lie just outside USNWR's top 50 are inferior, then I don't think you are very intelligent.

Ohio State is actually a very good school, and has been for a long time. Miami at #47 is elite in your eyes, but Ohio State at #52 (only 5 spots lower out of 300) is subpar? You really want to admit to that line of thinking?

The difference between Ohio State and Louisville is night and day. Worlds apart.

There are 300 schools listed in the "NATIONAL UNIVERSITIES" category.

elite schools - top 25 in the country
very good schools 26-75 ranking
good schools - 76-125
average - 126-175
subpar-176-300

That is a more realistic look at schools and rankings.

You think 51 or 52 or 55 or whatever the mark you now call "bubble schools"... are subpar because they don't fall within USNWR's top 50 rankings, (just because USNWR rankings are the most commercial rankings out there does not make them any more correct than Fiske's rankings, or Barron's or Money Magazine's or any other for that matter.) Well, that's just plain uninformed.

To think a school like Rutgers, or UCONN, or Purdue, or UT Austin, or George Washington or Pitt is subpar is a very ignorant opinion to have...and certainly not one based on anything other than misguided opinion. For someone who likes to thumb your nose down at schools because they are not "smart enough" you sure come across as pretty dumb on this topic.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Of course. I believe you mentioned before living in Ann Arbor? Regardless, you are absolutely correct. The vitriol out of Ann Arbor toward Ohio State is only matched by the vitriol out of Columbus toward Michigan. This is to be expected given the history of this rivalry.

Never lived in Michigan; but, a few jobs ago, my client territory for 6 years included Michigan - Whirlpool, Stryker, Steelcase, Dow Chemical, GM, Ford, Delphi, etc. so I heard all of the stories. GM in particular had a lot of internal U Michigan v. Ohio St strife. I have never been to Columbus; but, I have been to Ann Arbor a few times and U Michigan aside, it's a great college town.

 

[pj]

I think the gap between academic rankings 51 and 200 is a lot smaller than the gap between 1 and 50. That was my point.

In one sense, you are actually understating the truth. The distribution of talent follows a lognormal distribution and in such a distribution, the difference between #1 and #4 is about the same as the difference between #50 and #200.

However ... Talent is not the same as achievement. I've taught at Berkeley and Harvard and studied at MIT. I worked with 7 Nobel laureates. There are a lot of worthless faculty at the #1, #2, #3 schools. All the faculty at top schools are very smart, but many are very smart about building successful careers, not doing science. You can find great people at mediocre universities, whose defect is that integrity and love of truth prevented them from the chicanery that can lead to rapid career success. Certain aspects of quality, notably the moral aspects, are in some respects easier to find in out of the way places than in elite institutions. My career has extended long enough to see a transition in many institutions from dominance by true scientists to a dominance by fake scientists who are good at gaming the system.

Any comparison of RPI and academic rankings is compromised by the ambiguous nature of academic merit. Sports are decided on the court and athletic rankings like the RPI are honest indicators of quality of play. Academic rankings are decided by self-interest and gamesmanship and bear no necessary relationship to scholarly quality. They measure how clever the faculty and institutions are, not how capable they are in a scholarly or research sense. Highly rated institutions have smarter students and smarter faculty, the ratings invariably are highly correlated with the average IQ of faculty and students. But smart people with the wrong incentives can actually go farther astray than less smart people. Smart people are very clever and can become very silly if that is what their careers demand.

All of this supports what you say, but there is one key fact which refutes your idea that there is equivalence between Louisville and schools like UConn. It's that UConn is trying and Louisville is not. To be honest, in my career I've never had of faculty from Louisville doing anything at all. I've heard of faculty from UConn, Virginia, Purdue, and most of the other schools we mention. I've never heard of anyone from Louisville doing anything. If a school is not even trying, why debate their quality?

 

[pj]

I have to say I'm amazed at the denigration that goes on regarding Louisville around here. I thought they were a good member in good standing with the Big East and AAC. If the ACC had invited West Virginia University, would they have gotten the same denigration? State Flagship that everyone wants to emphasize and all? I'm not sure I could handle that one myself though. Whew! The WVU alumni aren't so bad. It's all the fans they have that didn't go to the school that have behavioral issues. Now that the Big XII have all shuffled through there, it would be interesting to capture their thoughts.

A rusted 33 year old Chevette, belching smoke through the muffler holes, with one mirror hanging down, no hubcaps, and an old stained sheet covering the seats. Is the floor board rusted through too? My oh my.

The Big East never pretended its schools were present because of their academic merit. The ACC can no longer pretend that either.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

The Big East never pretended its schools were present because of their academic merit. The ACC can no longer pretend that either.

The ACC does not pretend about academics anymore because it is spending all of it's time pretending that ND cares about the ACC's well-being...