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Nerlens Noel cleared by NCAA...

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Again there is no jealousy and I have no idea where you come from on this. I agree, way too much time talking about the slime ball. But anyone spending time sticking up for the piece of crap has either been living in a hole for many years or has a mancrush on the squid.....it is that simple. He has fooled the media, the NCAA and some other poor unfortunate souls.....congrats!!

are you on this forum bashing calipari constantly? if so then i am talking about you and others like you. if your one of those like myself who couldnt care less then i was not referring to you. im not defending anyone just a little annoyed by the constant stream of calipari topics. lets move on already.
 
But this is how it should be. The NCAA has no business getting involved in curricular concerns at schools. UNC should be sufficiently embarrassed by the revelations that they self-police. If they don't, UNC will forever bear this mark.

That being said, a university official from another school said that the NCAA did get involved with their coursework in the past, so the NCAA's excuse is bogus. This is also evident when then NCAA hammered Cal Tech for a policy that's in place to benefit all students, and that's maximum flexibility when it comes to course selection. If I'm a college administrator, the last thing I want is the NCAA standardizing courses.

Look, it's just great that UConn's basketball players got to spend a whole week in NYC visiting art galleries for one course. Everyone should have that opportunity. I'm not against that at all. My problem is that many such courses are strung together to keep the players eligible, rather than have them proceed toward a degree and graduation. Why is it done? For the APR public relations scam. Let the schools go back to the old way. Many kids are struggling to finish school right now, not just athletes. These kids are grown--at 18 they should be able to make decisions about the level of education they need. Just make sure the students are qualified to sit in a college classroom, and from then on, it's their responsibility. Presumably, the school will fail them if they don't show up. Presumably. But that's the most the NCAA should require.

Otherwise, tweak the scholarship guarantees and admission requirements.

The reality is that some schools have a higher set of standards for their school athletes than others. Sadly more and more schools are caving in to the pressures to lower their standards for student athletes in order to be competitive.

No amount of oversight will reverse this trend imo. It has to start with a significant majority of people with invested interests in sports to insist on a change. It won't come from networks. They make too much money to care. And now the colleges have been corrupted by the money. So it has to come from the fans. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I wasn't clear in my previous post. It was directed towards those who are appalled by the UConn APR situation without the in depth analysis of the problem and who sincerely believe that the system isn't gamed. These people cannot believe this was a personal vendetta by Emmert and Hathaway for past slights with JC.

FWIW:

freescooter's agenda is very clear. He wants UConn to be considered a football school because he loves football and is, at best, a disinterested basketball fan. So he comes to these forums with the agenda of polluting peoples opinions about the basketball program with the hope of convincing bb fans that the program wasn't as good as we believe it is. When he discusses standards during JC's tenure he really wants to corrupt the legacy. Many of us see through this. But there are those who are more susceptible to this type of mindbending. Whatever logical discussions you are having with him are wasted because he isn't interested in learning the truth.

Waquoit is a bb and football fan. He has supported JC in the past but he is also a Hathaway supporter. He has demonstrated a resentment towards Hathaway's termination and believes JC was responsible for this.

BigErnMcCracken is a men's bb and JC fan. However he thinks UConn fans on this forum are homers who automatically defend UConn's indiscretions while attacking other programs unfairly. He is correct to some extent, but this is such a bugaboo for him, that any of us, even those who offer reasonable explanations, such as yourself, are nothing but conspiracy theorists.
 
are you on this forum bashing calipari constantly? if so then i am talking about you and others like you. if your one of those like myself who couldnt care less then i was not referring to you. im not defending anyone just a little annoyed by the constant stream of calipari topics. lets move on already.

Agreed but I have had my share basically because people disagree.........I can't leave it alone if someone sticks up for the man. Sorry....so if everyone stops I'm in!! LOL
 
The reality is that some schools have a higher set of standards for their school athletes than others. Sadly more and more schools are caving in to the pressures to lower their standards for student athletes in order to be competitive.

No amount of oversight will reverse this trend imo. It has to start with a significant majority of people with invested interests in sports to insist on a change. It won't come from networks. They make too much money to care. And now the colleges have been corrupted by the money. So it has to come from the fans. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I wasn't clear in my previous post. It was directed towards those who are appalled by the UConn APR situation without the in depth analysis of the problem and who sincerely believe that the system isn't gamed. These people cannot believe this was a personal vendetta by Emmert and Hathaway for past slights with JC.

FWIW:

freescooter's agenda is very clear. He wants UConn to be considered a football school because he loves football and is, at best, a disinterested basketball fan. So he comes to these forums with the agenda of polluting peoples opinions about the basketball program with the hope of convincing bb fans that the program wasn't as good as we believe it is. When he discusses standards during JC's tenure he really wants to corrupt the legacy. Many of us see through this. But there are those who are more susceptible to this type of mindbending. Whatever logical discussions you are having with him are wasted because he isn't interested in learning the truth.

Waquoit is a bb and football fan. He has supported JC in the past but he is also a Hathaway supporter. He has demonstrated a resentment towards Hathaway's termination and believes JC was responsible for this.

BigErnMcCracken is a men's bb and JC fan. However he thinks UConn fans on this forum are homers who automatically defend UConn's indiscretions while attacking other programs unfairly. He is correct to some extent, but this is such a bugaboo for him, that any of us, even those who offer reasonable explanations, such as yourself, are nothing but conspiracy theorists.


Bingo......Big Crack especially!! Waq?....not sure if he is a Hathaway guy and God I hope not!! Free? Not sure what he is minus the fact he's not at all happy with KO......

Good stuff fleudy
 
The reality is that some schools have a higher set of standards for their school athletes than others. Sadly more and more schools are caving in to the pressures to lower their standards for student athletes in order to be competitive.

BigErnMcCracken is a men's bb and JC fan. However he thinks UConn fans on this forum are homers who automatically defend UConn's indiscretions while attacking other programs unfairly. He is correct to some extent, but this is such a bugaboo for him, that any of us, even those who offer reasonable explanations, such as yourself, are nothing but conspiracy theorists.

I appreciate the diagnosis. However, I have to say I disagree with the premise that any "reasonable explanation" has been offered. What is it that Calhoun always says? You're known by the company that you keep?


Arkansas-Pine Bluff
California-Riverside
Cal State Bakersfield
Jacksonville State
Mississippi Valley State
North Carolina-Wilmington
Texas A&M-Corpus Christi
Toledo
Towson

These are the other schools that also find themselves banned from the NCAA tournament.

To your point about some schools having higher standards for athletes, is it really your position that UConn's "higher standards" are the reason it is the only BCS school in the country that finds itself in this position? If so, do you have anything resembling evidence for this?

Are we to assume that the 9 august schools on the list above have similarly high standards? Or that they, too, have taken a principled stand based on their deep and abiding convictions regarding the proper method of educating college students, and that's why they've run afoul of the APR?

I mean, c'mon. Show your work here.
 
Bingo......Big Crack especially!! Waq?....not sure if he is a Hathaway guy and God I hope not!! Free? Not sure what he is minus the fact he's not at all happy with KO......

Good stuff fleudy
Thanks mau.

BigErn is an enigma as far as I'm concerned. I can't remember his previous name on the rivals forum but he was one of the more level headed contributors. He always had a disgust for the Husky Blue bias, but outside of that, his contributions were more even handed, with him occasionally going toe to toe with someone who disagreed with him. The change in his writing style from the rivals site to here is dramatic. I used to look forward to reading his comments on the rivals site. Sadly his commentary is far more bitter now.

Waquoit is brief and to the point. He doesn't hold back. I may disagree with him about a lot of things but I like his style.

Like the two guys above, free is one smart dude. He has an extensive knowledge of things. It's a shame his contempt for UConn men's bb is so great. I don't accept his denials to the contrary because the predominance of his writings in this forum betray this denial. I totally disagree with most of the stuff he writes in this forum (as opposed to other forums) but I admire his intelligence.

I've learned not to let these guys irritate me. For that matter I've even learned to not let chief get my goat. I'll admit that he took some doing. :) My intent in bringing the three guys to the picture was to point out to people that there are two things to consider when having a discussion. The first is the topic that is being discussed. The second, and far more important consideration, is to know who the person is that you are having a discussion with. And in this latter category, know that there are different hot buttons for people. When a person's hot button is pushed the situation becomes emotional and sometimes irrational for that person. Any attempt to be logical and havd a reasonable discussion are unlikely.
 
.-.
I appreciate the diagnosis. However, I have to say I disagree with the premise that any "reasonable explanation" has been offered. What is it that Calhoun always says? You're known by the company that you keep?


Arkansas-Pine Bluff
California-Riverside
Cal State Bakersfield
Jacksonville State
Mississippi Valley State
North Carolina-Wilmington
Texas A&M-Corpus Christi
Toledo
Towson

These are the other schools that also find themselves banned from the NCAA tournament.

To your point about some schools having higher standards for athletes, is it really your position that UConn's "higher standards" are the reason it is the only BCS school in the country that finds itself in this position? If so, do you have anything resembling evidence for this?

Are we to assume that the 9 august schools on the list above have similarly high standards? Or that they, too, have taken a principled stand based on their deep and abiding convictions regarding the proper method of educating college students, and that's why they've run afoul of the APR?

I mean, c'mon. Show your work here.
You wrote this as I was writing a response to mau!:)

I have nada with respect to specifics regarding this subject. But upstater has written extensively about this issue and his knowledge regarding this subject is extensive. There is no way of proving his knowledge is perfectly accurate but I believe he is closer to the point than you are.

The problem I have is there is no verification of what the schools send to the NCAA. That is why the North Carolina football team was able to do what they did for years. The NCAA didn't uncover the falsehood. I believe some disgruntled player spilled the beans to a reporter and that is what got the ball rolling. I'm not advocating for a verification process by the NCAA. I'm suggesting that without one, there is no way of really knowing the accuracy of academic standards for student athletes in the various college programs and therefore any condemnation of UConn in this matter doesn't take this into consideration.
 
I appreciate the diagnosis. However, I have to say I disagree with the premise that any "reasonable explanation" has been offered. What is it that Calhoun always says? You're known by the company that you keep?


Arkansas-Pine Bluff
California-Riverside
Cal State Bakersfield
Jacksonville State
Mississippi Valley State
North Carolina-Wilmington
Texas A&M-Corpus Christi
Toledo
Towson

These are the other schools that also find themselves banned from the NCAA tournament.

To your point about some schools having higher standards for athletes, is it really your position that UConn's "higher standards" are the reason it is the only BCS school in the country that finds itself in this position? If so, do you have anything resembling evidence for this?

Are we to assume that the 9 august schools on the list above have similarly high standards? Or that they, too, have taken a principled stand based on their deep and abiding convictions regarding the proper method of educating college students, and that's why they've run afoul of the APR?

I mean, c'mon. Show your work here.

Cal Tech. They were banned. Harvard didn't make the APR score. You're leaving off schools.

Strip all this stuff away about the company you keep, etc.

Just look at the APR rules. Realize that the best way to meet the criteria is to keep your players eligible, but prevent them from getting an education. That means short courses, intersession courses, but such courses don't allow the players to proceed toward a degree. That's well and good, because there's nothing in the APR that has anything to do with graduation.
 
funny you say that because the same has been said of both jim calhoun and geno auriemma by people i know personally who have met them. i myself had very good experiences with both in the handful of times ive met them.

I've met Calhoun and Geno also. They weren't exactly pleasant either, but they weren't rude.
 
The Cal Tech case was not APR related. They were cited for a lack of institutional control because some student-athletes participated while not being enrolled in enough classes to be considered full-time (due to the students "shopping for classes" at the beginning of each trimester). See this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/s...-meaning-to-academically-ineligible.html?_r=0
Also, Cal Tech is division 3 and the APR specifically applies only to Division I.

If you check the following link and search for Harvard, they have no penalties related to the APR:
http://web1.ncaa.org/maps/aprRelease.jsp
 
I appreciate the diagnosis. However, I have to say I disagree with the premise that any "reasonable explanation" has been offered. What is it that Calhoun always says? You're known by the company that you keep?


Arkansas-Pine Bluff
California-Riverside
Cal State Bakersfield
Jacksonville State
Mississippi Valley State
North Carolina-Wilmington
Texas A&M-Corpus Christi
Toledo
Towson

These are the other schools that also find themselves banned from the NCAA tournament.

To your point about some schools having higher standards for athletes, is it really your position that UConn's "higher standards" are the reason it is the only BCS school in the country that finds itself in this position? If so, do you have anything resembling evidence for this?

Are we to assume that the 9 august schools on the list above have similarly high standards? Or that they, too, have taken a principled stand based on their deep and abiding convictions regarding the proper method of educating college students, and that's why they've run afoul of the APR?

I mean, c'mon. Show your work here.

It's quite interesting, if SI was correct, which schools would have been banned if the rule had been instituted upon last years NCAAT.

UConn did itself no favors, but all the penalty next year shows me is that UConn was a year slow in adjusting to the new rules and the way they keep men's basketball players eligible.

It's quite a flawed system and doesn't show a thing about academics of athletes at a school, let alone regular academics at a school.

Hypothetically a kid like Roscoe Smith could hurt the APR at UConn by transferring to UNLV with a 2.3, while Michael Kidd-Gilchrist wouldn't hurt UK by leaving for the NBA with a 2.0. That is a majorly flawed system. *I just used those two as examples and made up their GPA's.

The best example is the kid from UCF(USF? some damn Florida school) who would have hurt the school by transferring but didn't by declaring for the draft. The kid wasn't ready for the NBA and wasn't drafted. So now the kid not only has no college degree but he can't go back to school for on scholarship.

Syracuse is notorious for having 2-3 walk-ons with high GPA's on the team to keep the APR high.

I don't blame schools for doing those things, but to hold APR and the tournament ban as some sort of beacon that UConn is failing at educating anyone is a joke.

UConn failed to game the system, that is all the APR tells me.
 
The Cal Tech case was not APR related. They were cited for a lack of institutional control because some student-athletes participated while not being enrolled in enough classes to be considered full-time (due to the students "shopping for classes" at the beginning of each trimester). See this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/s...-meaning-to-academically-ineligible.html?_r=0
Also, Cal Tech is division 3 and the APR specifically applies only to Division I.

If you check the following link and search for Harvard, they have no penalties related to the APR:
http://web1.ncaa.org/maps/aprRelease.jsp

Right about Cal-Tech and the APR, but it's the same issue. APR only measures eligibility and returning at the start of each semester. The players were ineligible because their full-time status for the spring had dropped.

As for Harvard, it's pretty simple to do the math. Look at their APR average drop year to year. Then calculate what scores they would have had to achieve in order to drop their APR as much as it dropped. When you do the calculation, there is no doubt Harvard failed to achieve the necessary APR score. I think they scored somewhere around 915 the last time I did the math.
 
.-.
Right about Cal-Tech and the APR, but it's the same issue. APR only measures eligibility and returning at the start of each semester. The players were ineligible because their full-time status for the spring had dropped.

As for Harvard, it's pretty simple to do the math. Look at their APR average drop year to year. Then calculate what scores they would have had to achieve in order to drop their APR as much as it dropped. When you do the calculation, there is no doubt Harvard failed to achieve the necessary APR score. I think they scored somewhere around 915 the last time I did the math.

You could be right about Harvard, and their recent scores (I have no idea what they are). But the Cal Tech case is not related. Basically the students (all students) at Cal Tech shop around for courses at the beginning of each trimester. If they drop too many classes during this prolonged "add-drop period" and then don't re-enroll in an appropriate number of classes until the very end of the three week period they may have a short period of time during which they have fewer than "full-time" credits. Thus, during that period of time they are considered by the NCAA to be "part-time" and ineligible for athletics, even though they eventually regain "full-time" status at the end of the three week "shopping" period. It has nothing to do with the athletes actually taking less than full time credits in the spring trimester. Simply, their status temporarily dropped to part-time during the prolonged add-drop period in the Spring trimester. Cal Tech self reported that some of their athletes "temporarily" dropped below full-time status during the season of competition due to the "shopping period". Those students did not remain part-time for the entire trimester. This is totally unrelated to the APR (just a case of poor accounting practices by the NCAA), but totally ridiculous of the NCAA to penalize in this instance.

Perhaps this link will clear it up:
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/07/16/ncaa-cracks-down-course-shopping-caltech

Most athletes here at Cal Poly Pomona are told to make sure they always add a class before they drop a class during our short add-drop period to assure they always retain full-time status, which has become more difficult for them since due to budget cuts, they can only enroll in 13 credits max during the initial "add" and "add-drop periods" and 12 are needed for full-time status.
 
You could be right about Harvard, and their recent scores (I have no idea what they are). But the Cal Tech case is not related. Basically the students (all students) at Cal Tech shop around for courses at the beginning of each trimester. If they drop too many classes during this prolonged "add-drop period" and then don't re-enroll in an appropriate number of classes until the very end of the three week period they may have a short period of time during which they have fewer than "full-time" credits. Thus, during that period of time they are considered by the NCAA to be "part-time" and ineligible for athletics, even though they eventually regain "full-time" status at the end of the three week "shopping" period. It has nothing to do with the athletes actually taking less than full time credits in the spring trimester. Simply, their status temporarily dropped to part-time during the prolonged add-drop period in the Spring trimester. Cal Tech self reported that some of their athletes "temporarily" dropped below full-time status during the season of competition due to the "shopping period". Those students did not remain part-time for the entire trimester. This is totally unrelated to the APR (just a case of poor accounting practices by the NCAA), but totally ridiculous of the NCAA to penalize in this instance.

Perhaps this link will clear it up:
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/07/16/ncaa-cracks-down-course-shopping-caltech

Most athletes here at Cal Poly Pomona are told to make sure they always add a class before they drop a class during our short add-drop period to assure they always retain full-time status, which has become more difficult for them since due to budget cuts, they can only enroll in 13 credits max during the initial "add" and "add-drop periods" and 12 are needed for full-time status.

There's actually nothing to clear up. The Cal-Tech case was discussed on this board a while back. I don't think anyone is confused about it. This is exactly what we've been saying for awhile now. The NCAA has some bogus measurement of what constitutes full-time status, and it somehow dictates to Cal-Tech how to run its academic programs, when the fact is, Cal Tech is doing its students a service by allowing them to choose courses 3 weeks into the semester. The NCAA has no business there.

The APR measures these exact same things. Full-time status is key. It's actually half the entire score. 1 point for returning in the spring. 1 point for returning in the fall. This is quite apart from grades. You just show up and get the points. The NCAA's emphasis on simply signing up for courses at the start of the semester is a very low bar to jump, but rather than reward a school like Cal-Tech for academic rigor, they banish them!

As for Harvard's scores, they are available at the link you provided in your previous post.
 
The NCAA has some bogus measurement of what constitutes full-time status, and it somehow dictates to Cal-Tech how to run its academic programs, when the fact is, Cal Tech is doing its students a service by allowing them to choose courses 3 weeks into the semester. The NCAA has no business there.

Nice discussion. I agree with you on the quoted section, but the APR metric is based on student athlete retention and academic eligibility, not simply whether a student is classified as full-time or part-time (not academic performance related). While I see how you can link them (and why you want to link them), they are still distinct, since academic performance (becoming ineligible due to poor academic performance) was not at the heart of the Cal Tech case. Also, I agree with your stance on the APR being a poor measure of student-athlete academic performance. My main point however, was a simple one, that is undeniable. Strictly speaking, neither Cal Tech, nor Harvard were previously disciplined by the NCAA due to poor APR performance. Cal Tech is not subject to the APR, since they are division 3, they do not even report an APR. Harvard has not received any penalties from the NCAA due to poor APR performance, although that may change in the future (their scores for 2011-2012 pending, those were the scores I was alluding to).

For reference you state: "The reason Cal Tech and Harvard don't meet the APR is because meeting the standards damages education."
Strictly speaking, Cal Tech doesn't need to meet the APR. It is not even subject to the APR. The APR has no influence on Cal Tech. Other ridiculous NCAA rules; however, did impact Cal Tech, but it clearly wasn't the APR.
At no previous point has Harvard's men's basketball team been penalized for not meeting the APR. To this point (2011-2012 data pending), they have always met the APR.
 
Nice discussion. I agree with you on the quoted section, but the APR metric is based on student athlete retention and academic eligibility, not simply whether a student is classified as full-time or part-time (not academic performance related). While I see how you can link them (and why you want to link them), they are still distinct, since academic performance (becoming ineligible due to poor academic performance) was not at the heart of the Cal Tech case. Also, I agree with your stance on the APR being a poor measure of student-athlete academic performance. My main point however, was a simple one, that is undeniable. Strictly speaking, neither Cal Tech, nor Harvard were previously disciplined by the NCAA due to poor APR performance. Cal Tech is not subject to the APR, since they are division 3, they do not even report an APR. Harvard has not received any penalties from the NCAA due to poor APR performance, although that may change in the future (their scores for 2011-2012 pending, those were the scores I was alluding to).

For reference you state: "The reason Cal Tech and Harvard don't meet the APR is because meeting the standards damages education."
Strictly speaking, Cal Tech doesn't need to meet the APR. It is not even subject to the APR. The APR has no influence on Cal Tech. Other ridiculous NCAA rules; however, did impact Cal Tech, but it clearly wasn't the APR.
At no previous point has Harvard's men's basketball team been penalized for not meeting the APR. To this point (2011-2012 data pending), they have always met the APR.

I never said Harvard was penalized for not meeting the APR. I said Harvard didn't meet the APR. In fact, lots of schools didn't meet the APR, including many big BCS schools. Only UConn so far has been penalized. The point is, why are schools failing to meet the APR? The NCAA's actual penalties are arbitrary, as we've long established in this discussion.

The Cal-Tech thing for me is linked. When you say retention, you simply must emphasize that returning to school is half the weight of the APR. And, what's more, it's not simply a measure of maintaining eligibility through the year, but you get an equal amount of points for returning in the Fall and returning in the Spring. The APR eligibility requirements are meant to lard the weight of the APR score, so the NCAA requires every school to follow these rules on eligibility whether they are subject to the APR or not. The NCAA simply can't allow one school, apparently, to let its students choose classes well into the semester. Most schools have moved away from long drop/add periods, but not to create academic rigor. They did it to increase class sizes (i.e. classes that don't make get cancelled now). I bet you anything that Cal-Tech has been doing this for a long time. They fell afoul of the NCAA rule precisely because the NCAA now mandates full-time status within the first week of semester.
 
I appreciate the diagnosis. However, I have to say I disagree with the premise that any "reasonable explanation" has been offered. What is it that Calhoun always says? You're known by the company that you keep?


Arkansas-Pine Bluff
California-Riverside
Cal State Bakersfield
Jacksonville State
Mississippi Valley State
North Carolina-Wilmington
Texas A&M-Corpus Christi
Toledo
Towson

These are the other schools that also find themselves banned from the NCAA tournament.

To your point about some schools having higher standards for athletes, is it really your position that UConn's "higher standards" are the reason it is the only BCS school in the country that finds itself in this position? If so, do you have anything resembling evidence for this?

Are we to assume that the 9 august schools on the list above have similarly high standards? Or that they, too, have taken a principled stand based on their deep and abiding convictions regarding the proper method of educating college students, and that's why they've run afoul of the APR?

I mean, c'mon. Show your work here.
LOL, very good way to put it...
 
The reality is that some schools have a higher set of standards for their school athletes than others. Sadly more and more schools are caving in to the pressures to lower their standards for student athletes in order to be competitive.

No amount of oversight will reverse this trend imo. It has to start with a significant majority of people with invested interests in sports to insist on a change. It won't come from networks. They make too much money to care. And now the colleges have been corrupted by the money. So it has to come from the fans. I don't see that happening anytime soon.


FWIW:

freescooter's agenda is very clear. He wants UConn to be considered a football school because he loves football and is, at best, a disinterested basketball fan. So he comes to these forums with the agenda of polluting peoples opinions about the basketball program with the hope of convincing bb fans that the program wasn't as good as we believe it is. When he discusses standards during JC's tenure he really wants to corrupt the legacy. Many of us see through this. But there are those who are more susceptible to this type of mindbending. Whatever logical discussions you are having with him are wasted because he isn't interested in learning the truth.

Can't speak for the others, but you got me partly right. I am more of a football fan than basketball, though I'd hardly classify myself as disinterested. I give Jim Calhoun no end of credit for the program he built. And I'm the one who argues UConn is at a level where it could have attracted any number of high profile coaches rather than give the job to a complete unknown...I see most of the posters here acting as if we'd be lucky to land the Hartford High coach...they are the ones who don't understand what Calhoun has built, I think.

I have been troubled by what has been happening with the program over the later years of Calhoun's tenure, though. that is absolutely accurate. To me there is no question that the standards have in fact declined, beginning I would say after the 2004 title. I am absolutely convinced that after that win, Calhoun wanted a 3rd title so badly that he "lost his way" to a degree in terms of the players he was willing to take. Players he wouldn't have taken, and players he would have tossed off the team in 2002 where suddenly showing up all over the place and on top of that he would go to extreme lengths to land them. beginning with the 2006 George mason debacle where for the first time in the Calhoun era we had a team that didn't much care, thorugh laptopgate this all culminated in the Nate Miles fiasco,NCAA violations and ultimately the APR fiasco. Upstater is right that APR is a foolish system, though he is being misleading with the Cal Tech stuff since APR simply doesn't apply in D3. But the reason UConn flunked the APR had nothing to do with their higher academic standards. Zero, Nada, Ziltch, Squato....it happened because Calhoun didn't give a crap. Made no effort to see that his players went to class, completed assignments and so forth. From what I've heard, that wasn't the case in 1995. it was by 2005. The funny thing was that the team that really wasn't supposed to be that good, and was made up of more likeable guys for that matter, no problem children, was the one that actually got Calhoun his 3rd title. UConn which in 2004 was both respected and popular nationally, led by a player of the year who also was a high achieving student who graduated in 3 years...has managed to become the poster child for all that is wrong with college basketball, from recruiting violations, to academic failures to rent a players...and now we have offered the coaching job to a guy whose sole qualification is that he is Calhoun's buddy...I thas little to do with hoping UConn becomes a football school, though I hope the program ultimately does reach significant heights. It is much more about seeing a program and a university that prided itself on winning the right way become one that is willingto win at any cost.
 
.-.
I never said Harvard was penalized for not meeting the APR. I said Harvard didn't meet the APR. In fact, lots of schools didn't meet the APR, including many big BCS schools. Only UConn so far has been penalized. The point is, why are schools failing to meet the APR? The NCAA's actual penalties are arbitrary, as we've long established in this discussion.

The Cal-Tech thing for me is linked. When you say retention, you simply must emphasize that returning to school is half the weight of the APR. And, what's more, it's not simply a measure of maintaining eligibility through the year, but you get an equal amount of points for returning in the Fall and returning in the Spring. The APR eligibility requirements are meant to lard the weight of the APR score, so the NCAA requires every school to follow these rules on eligibility whether they are subject to the APR or not. The NCAA simply can't allow one school, apparently, to let its students choose classes well into the semester. Most schools have moved away from long drop/add periods, but not to create academic rigor. They did it to increase class sizes (i.e. classes that don't make get cancelled now). I bet you anything that Cal-Tech has been doing this for a long time. They fell afoul of the NCAA rule precisely because the NCAA now mandates full-time status within the first week of semester.

Upstater, perhaps you never said Harvard was penalized, but when have they not met the APR up to this point? In fact, to this point (including only official data) they have always met the APR. Up to 2011 (according to the link), their lowest score was a 974. Even if they score a 915 and do not meet the APR for 2011-2012 (as you suggest they might), it is unlikely that they would incur any penalties at all, so they essentially meet the requirement (I can play that game too, i.e., stretching the facts).

I agree with Freescooter's statement that you are "being misleading with the Cal Tech stuff since APR simply doesn't apply in D3." The only reason you want to include these two schools is because it makes it seem that high profile, elite academic institutions are not meeting the APR criteria, when in fact that just isn't the case.
 
Upstater, perhaps you never said Harvard was penalized, but when have they not met the APR up to this point? In fact, to this point (including only official data) they have always met the APR. Up to 2011 (according to the link), their lowest score was a 974. Even if they score a 915 and do not meet the APR for 2011-2012 (as you suggest they might), it is unlikely that they would incur any penalties at all, so they essentially meet the requirement (I can play that game too, i.e., stretching the facts).

I agree with Freescooter's statement that you are "being misleading with the Cal Tech stuff since APR simply doesn't apply in D3." The only reason you want to include these two schools is because it makes it seem that high profile, elite academic institutions are not meeting the APR criteria, when in fact that just isn't the case.

Your own post contradicts itself. You wrote: "Even if Harvard scores a 915 and does not meet the APR for 2011-2012." Then you wrote: "The only reason you want to include these two schools is because it makes it seem that high profile, elite academic institutions are not meeting the APR criteria, when in fact that just isn't the case."

How do you expect me to respond when your own post is contradictory?

As for freescooter's supposed brilliance, see my response below.
 
Upstater is right that APR is a foolish system, though he is being misleading with the Cal Tech stuff since APR simply doesn't apply in D3. But the reason UConn flunked the APR had nothing to do with their higher academic standards. Zero, Nada, Ziltch, Squato

CalTech has had a long enrollment period for decades. Only when the NCAA established new rules related to the APR which insist that players have full-time status at the beginning of each semester (rules that were put in place for the APR, because half the APR's weight is simply returning to school for each semester) did CalTech fall afoul of the NCAA--for a policy that's been in place at CalTech for many years.

So, do you think fleud is a liar when he states he knew how Ted Taigen ran the program?

Given that UConn lost points to the APR for students leaving early, for Gavin Edwards' performance, it seems your point is totally wrong. I'll say this again: the APR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ACADEMIC RIGOR. IT MEASURES ELIGIBILITY IN RETENTION. UCONN FELL AFOUL OF IT BECAUSE IT WASN'T RETAINING PLAYERS WHO MAINTAINED ELIGIBILITY.

Caps are necessary to counter the claims that APR is somehow related to classroom performance. In fact, UConn was docked for Gavin Edwards, a kid who actually went to school for 3 1/2 years and managed to at least take courses in his major, something the one-and-doners never manage to accomplish--but the APR gives full credit for that, and docks the kid who is advanced in his degree but doesn't finish. Nonsense.
 
Your own post contradicts itself. You wrote: "Even if Harvard scores a 915 and does not meet the APR for 2011-2012." Then you wrote: "The only reason you want to include these two schools is because it makes it seem that high profile, elite academic institutions are not meeting the APR criteria, when in fact that just isn't the case."

How do you expect me to respond when your own post is contradictory?

As for freescooter's supposed brilliance, see my response below.

Hahaha. You are a complete disingenuous joke. Do you understand what the word "if" means?
Show me where Harvard has not met the APR up to the most current measures?
You can't! Because up to now they have always met the standard.
You are wrong again...face it, live with it , deal with it.
 
Hahaha. You are a complete disingenuous joke. Do you understand what the word "if" means?
Show me where Harvard has not met the APR up to the most current measures?
You can't! Because up to now they have always met the standard.
You are wrong again...face it, live with it , deal with it.

It's simple math.

Harvard's four year rolling average was 991 in 2010. It was 974 in 2011.

Just do the math: (991 + 991 + 991 + X)/4 = 974

If you have trouble, I can show you how to do such an equation. I'm assuming you won't have difficulty with this, but I understand that people sometimes have trouble with this stuff.
 
It's simple math.

Harvard's four year rolling average was 991 in 2010. It was 974 in 2011.

Just do the math: (991 + 991 + 991 + X)/4 = 974

If you have trouble, I can show you how to do such an equation. I'm assuming you won't have difficulty with this, but I understand that people sometimes have trouble with this stuff.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....OK, except each of the 991 values is a 4 year running average itself. Not an individual value.
I admit I was looking at the values in the online APR report as if they were individual yearly values....darn it.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....I retract my "joke" statement. So, I admit being wrong about Harvard.
Will you admit being wrong about Cal Tech and the APR?
 
.-.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....OK, except each of the 991 values is a 4 year running average itself. Not an individual value.
I admit I was looking at the values in the online APR report as if they were individual yearly values....darn it.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....I retract my "joke" statement. So, I admit being wrong about Harvard.
Will you admit being wrong about Cal Tech and the APR?

I already did. up above. Did you skip that part?

Relax, dude. Chill.
 

freescooter
upstater and I are not defending JC or UConn men's bb regarding the apr. We are pointing out a bigger picture. The academic and maturation qualifications of players you criticize JC with accepting in his program are widespread in many other programs. upstater and caw have pointed out the discrepancy between GPR and the federal standards. The NCAA has created a system that makes it look like it's doing something in the minds of the general public when in fact it isn't. Most of us who take the time and effort to examine the system more closely, or have people like upstater explain the smoke and mirrors of the system, ultimately become educated about the falsehood of the APR. The general public won't invest the time necessary to reach this conclusion, so the NCAA can relegate the fanatical fan base as just that, fanatical as opposed to informed. They can give the appearance they are doing something when they are not because the general public won't, or doesn't know how, to refute them. And the press has lost it's moral compass to change things.


Jeff Hathaway had a bitter relationship with JC from the beginning of his tenure at UConn. It is my assertion that JC (and RE for that matter) asked for help to level the playing field between their programs and the programs they were competing with. upstater has pointed out the difficulty all men's bb players have with completing their courses in the spring. UConn had been in several post season tournaments during the period when their scores were examined and that did not help matters. The real problem is what took place between JH, JC and RE. We probably will never know so we have to read between the lines.

The UNC football scandal is significant. UNC is a top notch university that failed with it's oversight. The question is was the failure deliberate or not. I don't believe the UNC AD had been ignorant about what took place in that program. The extent and the degree of cheating were very significant and easily observed with just a modicum of oversight. The same case can be made about Miami's program. And we all learned about the Penn State fiasco that extended well into the hierarchy of its AD and probably president. It is only by sheer accident, or because the stories became too big to cover up, that we learned about the extensive abuses in these programs. What is obvious is that the the NCAA is not proactive in checking things.

JC may have been involved in reducing the program's standards for the type of athlete he accepted. But that is the case with most athletic programs if you take into consideration the federal numbers and not the NCAA numbers. Where JC contributed to his own demise was his inability to placate the people in power who could ultimately hurt him. He irritated Hathaway, the press, and Mark Emmert. He set himself up to be the perfect fall guy when the system was in play for that to happen.

I don't excuse JC and the men's bb program for having a low apr. It was wrong if we choose to insist that players be in program for an education. The problem with this, as upstater has pointed out, is who chooses the standards. That's a whole can of worms.

Condemning JC and not taking the time to examine the entire system, is its own bias, the bias upstater and I are in disagreement with you and BigErn.

In addition to setting up a supposed academic standard the NCAA needed a high profile program to punish. It could have been any program. The reason it turned out to be UConn and JC was that Emmert had a personal vendetta. There is a reason why they went backwards several years after the standard was put in place and not made it contingent on future performance once it was enacted. Emmert correctly understood there were new sheriffs in town when Herbst entered the scene. She was determined to play by the rules of all the other programs. It wasn't the only reason for bouncing Hathaway but it was definitely one of the reasons. So Emmert convinced his colleagues to pull the strings and punish JC in a retroactive manner.
It was a win win situation for Emmert and the NCAA.
 
First, my sincere apologies to upstater and the board for being a dick. I will chill.

For the most part, I agree with upstater, fleudslipcon...
But (and I may be naive in this thinking) I have a difficult time believing:
1) that the APR is bad for education. I don't think the APR does exactly what it is supposed to do, but it isn't going to impact education as a whole (i.e., filter over to decreased standards for all students). The UNC situation (I think) & others like it predate the APR. Did the UNC Athletic Department and the A&AAS program conspire to keep athletes academically eligible? Likely, but I don't see it as a response to the APR directly. It would have happened with or without the APR.
I don't think most university academic program administrators (usually faculty) even care about the APR or even know what it is; therefore, they will not respond to it in any way.
2) that there was a conspiracy to take down UConn. UConn just happened to have a bunch of kids in a short period of time that wanted to jump to the pros (overseas or NBA) and were more concerned with preparing for the pre-draft camps and workouts than finishing their Spring semester courses with passing grades. I would advise my son to do the same if he were in that situation. Did we recruit some kids that didn't belong in college? probably yes on that too.
Where does UConn go from here and how do they prevent this from happening again in the future? Especially with the perception that the APR is doing its job?
Hopefully, a high character guy like KO will attract kids who want to graduate and value academics.

I wonder, if the APR were in place throughout the 90s and early 2000s, which teams/school wouldn't have passed? But then kids could jump straight to the pros, that option needs to return. (although Brandon Jennings showed it could be done even with the current NBA rules).
 
First, my sincere apologies to upstater and the board for being a dick. I will chill.

For the most part, I agree with upstater, fleudslipcon...
But (and I may be naive in this thinking) I have a difficult time believing:
1) that the APR is bad for education. I don't think the APR does exactly what it is supposed to do, but it isn't going to impact education as a whole (i.e., filter over to decreased standards for all students). The UNC situation (I think) & others like it predate the APR. Did the UNC Athletic Department and the A&AAS program conspire to keep athletes academically eligible? Likely, but I don't see it as a response to the APR directly. It would have happened with or without the APR.

UNC predates APR, so you're correct. On the other hand, we've been saying the APR will create perverse incentives for the education of student athletes, not for the student body as a whole. Jay Bilas has been talking about this publicly: bogus courses, tracking into certain majors, lowered standards through 1 week and intersession courses, etc. In other words, the incentive is now there for universities to emphasize retention and eligibility rather than proceeding toward a degree (i.e. fulfilling requirements). This was a problem before, BUT now you are doubly penalized for a player in the advanced stages of his degree leaving. How are you penalized? The advanced player will have much less possibility of finishing an advanced course in the spring, while the frosh or soph taking intersession and/or bogus courses breezes. Why risk having a player take advanced courses? You'll be punished if he doesn't finish them.
 
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