OT: NBA Playoffs

[auror]

if you want to ignore the 10 seasons MJ played without a ring where he was a glorified James Harden go for it.

Lol. How about the the 10 seasons LeBron played without a ring where he was a glorified Karl Malone.

 

[Scoe]

Lebron quit in the 2010 ecsf and 2011 Finals and the 2018 finals, I won't use the 2018 finals loss or even the sweep against GS against him but he did quit. Would MJ ever quit, no Kobe wouldnt quit either or Tim Duncan. That will be used against him in GOAT debates, is it nitpicking of course but thats the point its a GOAT debate.

 

[Scoe]

 

[Dogdeacon]

True best story of the playoffs

Thanks for the link. This is the better article vs that aggregator style.

NBA Playoffs: Jimmy Butler and the Miami Heat are in a barista battle

Business is booming for Jimmy Butler's Big Face Coffee. But his monopoly on the hotel-room caffeine fix is over.

www.espn.com

Makes the blow of Celtics losing to Heat easier to take, the banter & entire situation sounds like what happens at a UConn dorm. And Butler deserves to be in the finals as superstar, I hope KAT & Embid are taking notes.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I wish Lebron had a Phil Jackson/Pat Riley level coach through his prime. Instead, he carried 4 mediocre and 1 bad coach to the Finals. Funny, this is the first Finals in which his team is the favorite since 2013, I believe. I have never seen an athlete do more with less than Lebron.

 

[UofCT]

Starting to lose any credibility you may have had with this position...there is certainly a very strong case for either MJ or Lebron as the GOAT, but anyone who knows anything about basketball has MJ in their top 2

Glorified james harden? Try harder

What's wrong with James Harden? He's a league MVP and scoring champion. You clearly don't watch basketball anymore.

 

[superjohn]

I wish Lebron had a Phil Jackson/Pat Riley level coach through his prime. Instead, he carried 4 mediocre and 1 bad coach to the Finals. Funny, this is the first Finals in which his team is the favorite since 2013, I believe. I have never seen an athlete do more with less than Lebron.

He's played with guys who combined for 17 all-star appearances while playing with him and he's played with a handful or so hall of famers.

 

[Rocktheworld]

He's played with guys who combined for 17 all-star appearances while playing with him and he's played with a handful or so hall of famers.

Who is the worst coach to win a Finals over the last 20 years? Rick Carlisle?

 

[huskiesNhoos]

What's wrong with James Harden? He's a league MVP and scoring champion. You clearly don't watch basketball anymore.

Nothing wrong with him other than you're saying a consensus top 2 player all time who won everything is "a glorified version of him."

Just a lazy argument. Why not say MJ is a glorified version of every guard to ever play the game?

 

[tzznandrew]

Nothing wrong with him other than you're saying a consensus top 2 player all time who won everything is "a glorified version of him."

Just a lazy argument. Why not say MJ is a glorified version of every guard to ever play the game?

Also, James Harden doesn't play defense.

LeBron is great. If I'm picking a player to go to war with and I can get them from 21-35 I'm picking Jordan. That's not a knock on LeBron.

 

[Kitaman]

Also, James Harden doesn't play defense.

LeBron is great. If I'm picking a player to go to war with and I can get them from 21-35 I'm picking Jordan. That's not a knock on LeBron.

To me KAJ was the GOAT if you include college with the NBA. I would use him as my foundation when building a team over anyone else, including MJ. Tell me how a true Center can be the NBA's highest scorer ever.

With that said Michael is the greatest NBA basketball player I've ever seen, but Kareem is the greatest basketball player I've ever seen (if that makes sense).

Kareem: Greatest Basketball Player
MJ: Greatest NBA Player #1
Lebron: Greatest NBA Player #1A
Kobe: Greatest MJ Clone (yes, he's up there with them)

 

[Rocktheworld]

Tell me how a true Center can be the NBA's highest scorer ever.

Because he was taller than anyone and had an unguardable shot. Tends to help.

Wow that was hard to work out

Tell me how a true center won 11 rings: because he was taller than anyone and played in an 8-team league.

 

[UofCT]

Nothing wrong with him other than you're saying a consensus top 2 player all time who won everything is "a glorified version of him."

Just a lazy argument. Why not say MJ is a glorified version of every guard to ever play the game?

huh?

 

[Kitaman]

Because he was taller than anyone and had an unguardable shot. Tends to help.

Wow that was hard to work out

Tell me how a true center won 11 rings: because he was taller than anyone and played in an 8-team league.

I really don't think it was that simple. He faced multiple 7 footers, some even more imposing. You're right about that shot though, but I'll add it was accurate as hell and interestingly never duplicated.

 

[superjohn]

Also, James Harden doesn't play defense.

LeBron is great. If I'm picking a player to go to war with and I can get them from 21-35 I'm picking Jordan. That's not a knock on LeBron.

9 of the 11 seasons Jordan played with the Bulls he was first team all defense with a defensive player of the year. 5 of Lebron's 17 seasons he was first team all defense.

The Harden thing is just a 12 year old trolling so won't get into that.

 

[Adios]

Lebron's all diva and took last season off. I'd put Wilt Chamberlain as a better player than him. If I even have any clue what I am talking about. But LeBron is not the best. The whiniest and most self entitled, yes. He's going to have to battle Kanye for the self proclamation of being the "black Moses", whatever that means in their minds.

 

[Ratso]

imagine if reggie miller joined the knicks during the bulls era and asked dominique to join to win a title

 

[UofCT]

Lebron's all diva and took last season off. I'd put Wilt Chamberlain as a better player than him. If I even have any clue what I am talking about. But LeBron is not the best. The whiniest and most self entitled, yes. He's going to have to battle Kanye for the self proclamation of being the "black Moses", whatever that means in their minds.

Thats fair but if you go by @Scoe metric Wilt is not any good.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I'd put Wilt Chamberlain as a better player than him. If I even have any clue what I am talking about.

You don’t

HTH

 

[Lefty2one]

Can we wait until the offseason to engage UofCT2009 in his terrible historical NBA takes?

If I'm Miami I'm packing the paint and making LAL beat me with threes. Denver didn't stand a chance against LAL because they couldn't keep them out of the paint often enough. Some games were veritable layup lines. The other key if I'm Spo is that I'm keenly aware of the whistles LeBron and AD get--keeping Bam out of foul trouble is a top priority. I don't want to fan out to the perimeter and run guys off the line to create easy attacking angles for LeBron, Rondo, etc that will lead to paint possessions and ultimately more fouls.

AD needs to rise to the occasion and dominate Bam. I love watching Bam and can't wait to see how he performs against AD throughout a full series.

I think we'll get a close and fun series with some good chess moves. Ultimately, LA has LeBron and Miami doesn't. LAL in six.

 

[Mr. French]

Who is the worst coach to win a Finals over the last 20 years? Rick Carlisle?

Rick Carlisle is a really, really good coach.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Rick Carlisle is a really, really good coach.

We agree

So who is it, Spo? Lue? Or is it Larry Brown? That’s all you have left besides Riley, Phil, and Pop.

This is a diacritic, by the way; not an interrogation.

 

[superjohn]

We agree

So who is it, Spo? Lue? Or is it Larry Brown? That’s all you have left besides Riley, Phil, and Pop.

This is a diacritic, by the way; not an interrogation.

All really good coaches.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Can we wait until the offseason to engage UofCT2009 in his terrible historical NBA takes?

If I'm Miami I'm packing the paint and making LAL beat me with threes. Denver didn't stand a chance against LAL because they couldn't keep them out of the paint often enough. Some games were veritable layup lines. The other key if I'm Spo is that I'm keenly aware of the whistles LeBron and AD get--keeping Bam out of foul trouble is a top priority. I don't want to fan out to the perimeter and run guys off the line to create easy attacking angles for LeBron, Rondo, etc that will lead to paint possessions and ultimately more fouls.

AD needs to rise to the occasion and dominate Bam. I love watching Bam and can't wait to see how he performs against AD throughout a full series.

I think we'll get a close and fun series with some good chess moves. Ultimately, LA has LeBron and Miami doesn't. LAL in six.

I see a lot of Miami bench that was ineffective against the Celtics due to the C's plethora of wings coming into play in this series. Olenik will have at least one game with buckets, Kendrik Nunn & Derrick Jones Jr are as good as the various B-listers the Lakers roll out (Morris, washed Danny Green etc) and their bench will likely be a factor. If the Heat guards can score versus Marcus Smart they can certainly expose Rondo and announcer fave Caruso. Iggy came out of nowhere to make a serious mark on the Celtics series and I think he's money in the finals. Big edge of course to AD over BAM, but BAM might win that battle a game or two. So then could come down to who is hungrier and healthier between Butler and LeBron. Butler is really good and really poised to make a statement, but LeBron knows this is likely his last stand as a league top guy. I wouldn't bet against LeBron, but if the refs don't overly favor the Lakers again I think it'll be very closely contested. Lakers in 7 and then we can resume the ridiculous GOAT banter.

 

[Rocktheworld]

All really good coaches.

So nobody wants to answer directly because they know where that question is leading. Good for you all.

The real point is that coaching in the playoffs and Finals means more. Pure talent gets you by in the regular season when everyone is playing 3-4 nights a week and constantly traveling, never playing their division opponents more than 4 times. But when you’re in a two-week series of seven consecutive games and days off between, coaching and scheming becomes paramount.

So after we appreciate that, besides it being apples and oranges, coaching matters more than surrounding talent (Golden State with Durant being an outlier). And you cannot deny that the gulf between relative surrounding talent and coaching aptitude is so clearly massive in MJ’s advantage with Phil. And oh yeah he had three years of Dean Smith. Ty Lue was in his first year ever as head coach in 2016.

This is why LBJ is stated as having the greatest BB IQ of all time: he has been a coach in himself for the better part of a decade.

 

[Mr. French]

We agree

So who is it, Spo? Lue? Or is it Larry Brown? That’s all you have left besides Riley, Phil, and Pop.

This is a diacritic, by the way; not an interrogation.

Honestly, it might be Doc Rivers, lol.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Honestly, it might be Doc Rivers, lol.

LMAOOOO you might’ve got me with that!

Man how much does Paul Pierce wish he had Phil instead of Doc.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

He's played with guys who combined for 17 all-star appearances while playing with him and he's played with a handful or so hall of famers.

And that addresses coaching in what way?

Not to mention a lot of those guys were All-Stars because of Lebron. Many never sniffed an appearance after parting ways with him. Not that All-Star is a great barometer in the NBA.

It is a silky debate between the two. I am happy I was able to see both of them. I think Lebron is better, but the opposing opinion isn't crazy.

 

[Mr. French]

So nobody wants to answer directly because they know where that question is leading. Good for you all.

The real point is that coaching in the playoffs and Finals means more. Pure talent gets you by in the regular season when everyone is playing 3-4 nights a week and constantly traveling, never playing their division opponents more than 4 times. But when you’re in a two-week series of seven consecutive games and days off between, coaching and scheming becomes paramount.

So after we appreciate that, besides it being apples and oranges, coaching matters more than surrounding talent (Golden State with Durant being an outlier). And you cannot deny that the gulf between relative surrounding talent and coaching aptitude is so clearly massive in MJ’s advantage with Phil. And oh yeah he had three years of Dean Smith. Ty Lue was in his first year ever as head coach in 2016.

This is why LBJ is stated as having the greatest BB IQ of all time: he has been a coach in himself for the better part of a decade.

I dno, I think it's clearly important to have a good/great coach ... but I also think in the NBA the most important thing is having great players. Not one of these great coaches won the title without an all-time great player, EXCEPT Larry Brown. They all had pretty incredible rosters and are part of pretty great organizations that built teams properly.

To me, coaching in college is more important. Sure, the NBA you have rotations and subs and obviously some play designs, but no one is totally out-scheming others in the NBA. It's a make or miss league, a players league. If you have the horses, chances are you will go far.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I dno, I think it's clearly important to have a good/great coach ... but I also think in the NBA the most important thing is having great players. Not one of these great coaches won the title without an all-time great player, EXCEPT Larry Brown. They all had pretty incredible rosters and are part of pretty great organizations that built teams properly.

Well yeah you have to have great players. Everyone in the last two rounds has great players. That’s a given. Then, when it really matters, coaching makes the difference. Sometimes, coaching beats talent even earlier; it happened twice this year with the Clippers and Bucks.

Ive really started this whole side discussion over what has become a comparison of LBJ’s alleged advantage in surrounding help, which itself is astonishing when you consider what he’s had to try to accomplish with legendary sidekicks like Ilgauskas and Dellavedova; and MJ’s massive coaching advantage.