OT: NBA Playoffs

[the Q]

One of things not mentioned about Lebron’s first run in CLe, the coach was ahead of his time surrounding Lebron with shooters/floor spacing (even if it’s just ft line jumpers). All t stuff that pop did to Miami except 5 years earlier.

The problem was the shooters had bad series against a really good team (Boston 2010) and 2 guys shot their brains out for the series of their lives to beat them (Lewis and turkoglu in 2009).

Plus. Lebron didn’t want to leave CLe, but they weren’t recruiting elite talent. if bosh was willing to come to CLe Lebron was never going to Miami. He actively recruited bosh and he said no.

I don’t like Lebron. But some of these points need to at least be put out there.

 

[Rocktheworld]

One of things not mentioned about Lebron’s first run in CLe, the coach was ahead of his team surrounding Lebron with shooters/floor spacing (even if it’s just ft line jumpers). All t stuff that pop did to Miami except 5 years earlier.

The problem was the shooters had bad series against a really good team (Boston 2010) and 2 guys shot their brains out for the series of their lives to beat them (Lewis and turkoglu in 2009).

Plus. Lebron didn’t want to leave CLe, but they weren’t recruiting elite talent. if bosh was willing to come to CLe Lebron was never going to Miami. He actively recruited bosh and he said no.

I don’t like Lebron. But some of these points need to at least be put out there.

The fact that anyone accomplished anything in Cleveland under Dan Gilbert should be considered a miracle in itself

 

[Lefty2one]

Don't tell that to @Lefty2one. He might call you out!

Nope, no qualms with LeBron. He's a Top 3 player of all time and if someone thinks he's the GOAT that's fine. Comparing MJ to Harden is embarrassing.

Separately, people still believe LeBron hasn't had enough help in his career? His championships were won with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, and Anthony Davis (presumably). That's an insane supporting cast. People were complaining that the Heatles were going to ruin the NBA. Davis and Wade will go down as Top 25 players. Kyrie thoroughly outplayed Steph in the '16 Finals and was unquestionably the second-best player in that series. Kyrie won't have the greatest legacy but at his peak he was balling like a top-five player in the league.

LeBron dragged a couple of bad Cavs teams in a god awful Eastern Conference where he wouldn't have gotten out of the first round if the Cavs were in the West. The comparison was done just after LeBron left CLE for LA, LeBron beat something like five 50-win teams in the Eastern Conf playoffs throughout his career whereas MJ beat 14.

Who was the best team LeBron beat in the East? The '07 aging Pistons? The '14 Pacers, whose second-best player was a 33-year-old David West? I can't give LeBron much credit for that stuff. The 2007 Cavs are the 6-seed in the West (and that's being generous, assuming their same record with an WC schedule) and get swept in the first round by the 3-seed Spurs. The '13 Heat made it to the Finals without defeating a single 50-win team. LeBron's legacy would be very, very different if he was drafted by a team in the West.

LeBron's coaches haven't been all-time greats but Spo has long been underrated and will likely wind up in the HOF when it's all said and done. LeBron tried to have Riles fire him six weeks into the Heatles era. You're a well above-average coach if you go a dozen straight years with a single franchise with only two of those 12 seasons are under .500.

LeBron is a legend and a monster but he's had plenty of help in his career. Overall he easily had more help than MJ, whose second-best teammate was Horace Grant.

 

[Lefty2one]

Plus. Lebron didn’t want to leave CLe, but they weren’t recruiting elite talent. if bosh was willing to come to CLe Lebron was never going to Miami. He actively recruited bosh and he said no.

The Cavs didn't have two max slots during 2010 free agency. That was why a decent chunk of fans/media thought he was gone, CLE was in cap hell and there was no way to significantly improve the team over the next few years.

As an aside, Bosh said on Redick's podcast last month that if it wasn't Miami he would have gone to Chicago. That would have been an interesting team, at least for a year and a half. Pre-injury D-Rose, Bosh, prime Noah, Deng.

 

[the Q]

The Cavs didn't have two max slots during 2010 free agency. That was why a decent chunk of fans/media thought he was gone, CLE was in cap hell and there was no way to significantly improve the team over the next few years.

As an aside, Bosh said on Redick's podcast last month that if it wasn't Miami he would have gone to Chicago. That would have been an interesting team, at least for a year and a half. Pre-injury D-Rose, Bosh, prime Noah, Deng.

Yeah. Bosh had zero interest in CLE, but a lot of interest in playing with Lebron. But that doesn’t mean bron wasn’t trying to bring him to CLE first.

That CLE team bron left the first time was well coached but horribly run.

 

[olehead]

I think I'm going to watch, though I'm no fan of either team and don't like either of the opposing lead divas. Hard to figure why I'd take the time other than love of the game.

 

[Lefty2one]

Yeah. Bosh had zero interest in CLE, but a lot of interest in playing with Lebron. But that doesn’t mean bron wasn’t trying to bring him to CLE first.

That CLE team bron left the first time was well coached but horribly run.

True. A sign-and-trade was a possibility. I can't blame Bosh (or anyone) for not wanting to go to CLE haha.

 

[the Q]

True. A sign-and-trade was a possibility. I can't blame Bosh (or anyone) for not wanting to go to CLE haha.

Yeah. CLe had bad Geography and a worse front office.

 

[Mr. French]

I'm apparently missing 2 but can't figure out who, could only come up with 15

Dwyane Wade x4: 2011-14
Chris Bosh x4: 2011-14
Kyrie Irving x2: 2015, 2017
Kevin Love x2: 2015, 2018
Mo Williams x1: 2009
Zydrunas Ilgauskas x1: 2005
Anthony Davis x1: 2020

Interesting! Larry Hughes?

 

[Mr. French]

MJ couldn't even lead the Wizards to the playoffs. Do you just pretend like that never happened?

Are you 12 years old or trolling?

 

[Rocktheworld]

Who was the best team LeBron beat in the East? The '07 aging Pistons? The '14 Pacers, whose second-best player was a 33-year-old David West? I can't give LeBron much credit for that stuff. The 2007 Cavs are the 6-seed in the West (and that's being generous, assuming their same record with an WC schedule) and get swept in the first round by the 3-seed Spurs. The '13 Heat made it to the Finals without defeating a single 50-win team. LeBron's legacy would be very, very different if he was drafted by a team in the West.

Did you notice, as you were typing this paragraph out, that it’s essentially saying “The best Eastern Conference win LBJ has is from the season when his team would have been a 6 seed in the other conference” in a larger argument regarding who had more help? Or are you arguing that’s the year LBJ did most with less? Because no, that’d be 2015

LeBron's coaches haven't been all-time greats but Spo has long been underrated and will likely wind up in the HOF when it's all said and done. LeBron tried to have Riles fire him six weeks into the Heatles era. You're a well above-average coach if you go a dozen straight years with a single franchise with only two of those 12 seasons are under .500.

Just, please, don’t try to spin the coaching angle.

LeBron is a legend and a monster but he's had plenty of help in his career. Overall he easily had more help than MJ, whose second-best teammate was Horace Grant.

So who was MJ’s hardest Finals opponent? Charles Barkley and the Suns? Frankly, on this further analysis, it doesn’t look like MJ needed much help once he bought in to Phil’s system, Scottie came on board, and the Pistons and Celtics got old; while LBJ had to battle two consecutive dynasties. And please, don’t act like the Big 3 Celtics were nothing to overcome.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I think I'm going to watch, though I'm no fan of either team and don't like either of the opposing lead divas. Hard to figure why I'd take the time other than love of the game.

Cheer up gramps

 

[eebmg]

65-48 LA at the half after falling behind by 13. Bam got 2 fouls in Q1 and that is that. The sheer physicality of LA (Lebron and AD) will carry the series. Sweep ?

 

[Rocktheworld]

Sweep ?

I mean if Jimmy’s got a bum ankle all series...

LA’s supporting cast came out. If a couple of them play well a game, it’s hard to see Miami lasting long.

Granted, LA shot 65% from 3 and that won’t be happening another half the rest of the way

 

[UofCT]

You mean when he was 38 and 39, after not playing for 3 years?

Excuses

 

[UofCT]

Are you 12 years old or trolling?

Trolling

My edit: The non trolling aspect is people tend to forget MJ failed on the Wizards. Not making the playoffs is ridiculous given how bad the east was. Age has is an excuse for MJ but Lebron doesn't need that excuse yet.
I get MJ has the rings but Lebron has had a better career and if we have this conversation after Lebron retires the GOAT conversation will probably be unanimous for Lebron.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Yikes, could you ask for three worse injuries

Van Grundy is talking about role players “working their way back in to the rotation”. In the Finals. You don’t want to hear that.

 

[auror]

Lakers hit 65% of first half 3s.

Butler tweaks an ankle, but returns. Dragic left foot injury. Bam some sort of hand injury.

Very disappointing.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Trolling

My edit: The non trolling aspect is people tend to forget MJ failed on the Wizards. Not making the playoffs is ridiculous given how bad the east was. Age has is an excuse for MJ but Lebron doesn't need that excuse yet.
I get MJ has the rings but Lebron has had a better career and if we have this conversation after Lebron retires the GOAT conversation will probably be unanimous for Lebron.

MJ didn't fail in DC. He averaged 20 points per playing a wing position at the age of 40. That isn't failing.

 

[bazz&boujee]

LeBron is a legend and a monster but he's had plenty of help in his career. Overall he easily had more help than MJ, whose second-best teammate was Horace Grant.

You can disrespect LeBron but don’t disrespect the HOFer Dennis Rodman now

 

[Lefty2one]

Did you notice, as you were typing this paragraph out, that it’s essentially saying “The best Eastern Conference win LBJ has is from the season when his team would have been a 6 seed in the other conference” in a larger argument regarding who had more help?

It's an argument regarding how easy his path was to the Finals relative to the West in 2007. People talk about doing more with less, he wasn't doing anything if the Cavs were in the West. No one says LeBron had help during his first stint in CLE, of course he didn't have help. Ever since 2010-11 he's had a ton of help.

Or are you arguing that’s the year LBJ did most with less? Because no, that’d be 2015.

People act like Love and Kyrie missed the entire season. LeBron put up monster numbers in the Finals on terrible efficiency. It was an impressive performance in a losing effort but for me it didn't impact his legacy.

And please, don’t act like the Big 3 Celtics were nothing to overcome.

Boston was still tough but their core was 36, 35, and 34 and on their last legs. They need seven games to beat the 8-seed Sixers the round before. When Miami actually felt like playing they were easily the better team. Boston's core went .500 the following season and then blew it up.

 

[Lefty2one]

MJ didn't fail in DC. He averaged 20 points per playing a wing position at the age of 40. That isn't failing.

They were well on their way to making the playoffs too in '02 if MJ didn't get hurt. He was starting to play out of his mind again.

In his last 20 games up to the injury he averaged 27.5 - 6.4 - 5.2 - 1.3 - 0.5 on 44%
In his last 10 games up to the injury he averaged 29.7 - 6.6 - 6.1 - 1.2 - 0.3 on 47%

And this is in a brutal NBA in terms of pace, scoring, and physicality.

It was a long time ago but I think they were a top-three seed in the East when he injured his knee and the Wiz were getting better and better. Rip missed a bunch of time that year. Washington had an insane record with the two of them on the court. One article online says they went 15-1 in games Rip and MJ played together pre-knee injury.

I can't wait to see how LeBron's twilight years go. If this dude wants to he can probably play another 7-10 years and at age 35, to me, he's still easily the best player in the league. I can see him averaging 20/5/5 off the bench at age 43 or something stupid.

 

[JohnFSilver]

Guys, MJ as a wizard was so much better than he should have been. He was a 20 PPG scorer at 40. Five me a break.

LeBron is more skilled, Jordan a better player.

If I am drafting, I take Jordan first. More dominant in one area (scoring) than Lebron is. LeBron better rebounder and passer. Defensively, Jordan slightly better but LeBron very good.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Guys, MJ as a wizard was so much better than he should have been. He was a 20 PPG scorer at 40. Five me a break.

LeBron is more skilled, Jordan a better player.

If I am drafting, I take Jordan first. More dominant in one area (scoring) than Lebron is. LeBron better rebounder and passer. Defensively, Jordan slightly better but LeBron very good.

Lebron score nearly as much on fewer attempts. If you add assists, Lebron creates more points per game. Lebron also carried multiple bad teams to the Finals. For all his greatness, Jordan never did that. He never carried a bad team past Boston in the playoffs. Lebron had people thinking mediocre teammates were all-stars getting max contracts.

MJ should be praised for his time playing in DC. A 40 year old isn't supposed to put up those numbers in the League. The man was super human.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Can you guys please start your own thread: "MJ vs LeBron - An endless argument that will change exactly no one's mind ever"
Very disappointed in the Heat's effort last night and if Goran Dragic is injured they are toast. I think it was 40-41 when he left the game. That's sadly been the story of his career so in retrospect was pretty predictable for the finals. Likewise Bam is still a year away when playing against all-star caliber opponents (his leaving the game seemed at least 1/3 mental) and unless Miles Leonard is exhumed with Dave Cowen's brain implanted, the Heat have no chance against AD. The Heat might still win one game, maybe 2 If Dragic can play at all - but I'm struggling to find any reasons to think this is a competitive series this AM.